Whilst this thread isn't about the usual US Vs. UK training debate, I must make the point that as someone who also did alot of training abroad and as a CFI in the UK, I think that the comment:
Does worry me somewhat. Whilst I would never advocate anyone going up in conditions that they were uncomfortable in, there is more to the flying 'environment' than weather.

RT procedures, airspace, mountains (not many in Florida), icing conditions, over head joins, navigation, MATZ's etc....... are all different if you do your training abroad. Reading about them in the books is one thing, but actually operating is a different thing, especially for a low-hour (minimum hours usually) pilot.

The weather in the UK can change incredibly rapidly and many people get caught out by it every year. A few lessons cannot adaquetely prepare you for this. If you expect to only fly in good conditions and don't prepare for other eventualities, then you may find yourself in trouble at some point. This is especially true for those of us north of the border.

Flying is an expensive sport, but again I would suggest people look for quality in their training, rather than focus purely on cost. Unfortunately it's very difficult to make up a database that shows competance, but a comparison can be very useful especially if there are multiple schools, the final cost is often seemingly an irrelevance in reality and rather than looking at the price over all, think more about how much it's likely to cost you each month, bearing in mind that the less often you fly, the more hours it will take you.

After you finish your skills test, you will still have to pay for your flying at a (not very) reduced rate anyway, so why is there always a mad rush to try and get the ticket? Spending a bit longer with a good instructor will make you a far better pilot than someone who has rushed through in the bare minimum of hours. Surely that is the object of the excercise?

Hi. I personally agree with the post above. During the Nav part of my training I was recently invited by a friend to finish my ab initio training in the US. After some thought I decided to finish here in the UK (even if it does take me a bit longer and does cost me a bit more). I'd prefer to finish my training in the environment I'm going to fly in afterwards. Also, having done my RT theory and practical, I have heard that the RT procedures are a bit different over there.

This is just my personal decision. I know some FI's who have finished or done all of their ab initio in the US and some PPL's who have gone and done their IR etc over there. Each to his own, but my choice is to get my PPL over here. I've been able to buy a share in a syndicated 152, so my flying costs post PPL will be less than half what they would be if I had to hire. I'm happy to spend a bit extra getting there, as I want to be as safe a pilot as possible and I feel that the more confident and experienced I become through flying with my FI here, then the safer I should become in the long run.

Good luck to every fellow student wherever they do their training.

PD.

Say again slowly

Of course there is more than the weather that was just an example and it would not be appropriate in this forum, which is about FAS, to go into all the issues. I would also add that the variability in the weather and the extremes of weather that I faced in the USA make the UK look like a walk in the park! Also the airspae regulations and numbers of aircraft are much more - nothing difficult about our airspace and regulations is there, really?

I understand that you are a CFI here in the UK, but we must realise that thee are better places than the UK for flight training and also in many other walks of life I am afraid!

Its a big world out there!!! And we need to make all aware of the opportunities that exist --- and at half the cost (not good for CFIs and schools here though!!)

Can you also give me the figures for accidents between pilots trained in the uSA and those in the UK - guess that would be the crucial bit of information for us all to make sound comments on - what do you think?

Have a good day

Rednine:ok:

RED,

I for one did my PPL in Scotland and then went to states to hour build. When I was out there, I never saw a cloud and 5 knots wind max, hardly what you would call a good training environment for students who could come back to UK with a PPL and then go flying in the Highlands of Scotland.

As far as I'm concerned, there's no substitute for training in the area/ country you will be flying in. and I would suggest any training done at any FTO in Scotland will provide the student with the best training environment available! If anyone can competently fly in Scotland then they should be able to cope with almost anything.

The PPL is the foundation for all future flying, so it is important that it is done properly and not compromised by cost!!

C99

I don't have any information on accident statistics, but there is more to flight safety than that! For instance is there a difference in airspace busts, people getting lost etc. Not just how many people hurt/killed themselves.

I have re-trained many people who have come back from the states. In many cases, it has often been just that, an almost complete work up. There are good schools and bad schools wherever you go, but on average and taking into account the environmental differences the U.K schools produce a higher quality product for our conditions. There is more to flying skill than just how you manipulate the controls and how good your landings are.

Personally, I'm not too worried about people going to the States from a business point of view, the club I'm at is non-profit making and I make my living elsewhere so we don't suffer from the same issues as most schools.

Weatherwise there are better places to learn the basics of flying than the U.K, but once you get past the early general handling part of the syllabus and you start to be aware of what is happening around you, that is when you should start your flying in the U.K. For example, some of the big commercial schools (Oxford especially) used to send their students abroad for the initial part of their flight training as it was cheaper, but then they brought them back to the U.K for the more advanced stuff. Why do that if you can do all the training in the U.S? (excepting the IR for obvious reasons.)

Actually, extremes of weather are often easier to operate in than the normal British muck.
Why? If you see that the wind is blowing 50kts and there is a hurricane or thunderstorm approaching, then the decision not to fly is an easy one, but here in the U.K we don't often get those extremes so making the decision to go/not to go is more difficult and people being people the old rules about 'if there's any doubt, then there's no doubt...' go out of the window unfortunately.

Push-on-itis is still a big killer and that is usually because the pilot concerned didn't read the weather well enough before flight and then compounded the folly by making bad decisions in-flight. IMHO someone who has been subjected to the vagaries of the British weather and is used to cancelling flights due to the conditions, is less likely to launch off into dodgy weather than someone who is more used to going flying every time they arrive at the aircraft. It's easier to make a tough decision if you've got a standard to work from i.e knowing when your instructor used to call time on flying gives you something to go on.
I like to take students up in not very nice conditions to give them a small taste of why you don't do it. A difficult thing to do if you are on an intensive course in gin clear weather.

Well I trained in Scotland, glad I did as I feel I got good training. However I have flown lots in the States, in fact ive flown all over the States in both single and multi engine aircraft, I have seen every variable of weather imaginable, I have faced more operational challenges over there than I ever will here. Most people train in Florida, the sunshine state as they say........except the summer months when its so turbulent you feel sick, the humidity is so intense that the ASI steams up on the inside of the face, thunderstorms like i've never seen in my life with downdrafts, windshear, microbursts to name but a few.

whether you train here or eslewhere it matters not, a plane is after all a plane and when you paint the letter 'N' on the tail it does not fly any differently, we all fly within the earths athmosphere with its constanly changing weather systems and all locations of the globe have their own challenges for the unwary aviator.

Chose a good quality school, study hard and be safe......

Cactus has hit the nail on the head. With the UK v's US debate.

I am sure that poeple can pull examples of a hat of pilots coming back doing a 1 hour check out then fying quite happly around the highlands ( or they think they are happy and safe)

I personally did my PPL and hour building in FL then my FI in the UK. And then worked in the highlands instructing.

And apart from the scottish wx there are many factors which are completly different from the US and could potentially be rather fatal if not considered.

1. Lack of fuel and landing places.

As all that have flown in the US know basically from 4000ft you can glide to an airport pretty much from any where in FL apart from the Everglades and as it seems common practise over there if you can't get to an airport you stick it onto the nearest highway you can see. Scotland it can be over 100 miles to the nearest airport and its not garanteed there will be avgas there.

2. Radar cover

You can get a service down to 1000ft anywhere in FL. Over the highlands you will be lucky to get anything below FL70. And with large areas you will be in radio shadow from contacting anyone including 121 with the only chance of help is a relay using the transatlantic traffic going 10W.

3. RT completly different and intially a serious increase in work load. And you will be a complete pain in the arse to all other pilots and ATC until you get with the readbacks and start using rodger and wilco when required instead of reading the whole bloody lot back or not reading back the correct things.

4. UK MIL are a law unto themselves and use different phrasing and may try to control you into IMC.

5. Highland Training area brillant country to fly in but unlike the US guys who think its hard to fly around at 2000ft at 500knts the RAF do it at less than 250ft and if you are trying to use a Glen you can end up with a helicopter going one way you going the other, A FRA falcon trying to dodge the helicopter all with 2 tonkas blasting through under you and a cloud base below the mountain tops. And if you are getting a FIS off scottish them not having a clue they are there. BUt saying that the is something nice about watching 3 hercs flying up Lochness with wakes in the water behined them.

6. Navigation. GPS is not reliable due to various war games and topography. Very easy to end up getting the wrong glen and learn why they teach you performance turns when the ground starts climbing faster than you.

If you want to mountain fly in France or swiss you do a 10-15 hour high intensity course. You wouldn't need that long to cover yourself in Scotland but if you learn up here you will have covered all thats required to safely fly in the area you want to fly in.

And it may be cheap but FL is boring as hell to fly around. If i had my time again it would be PPL in the UK or New Zealand. At least you will get people with a sense of humour, no gun waving redneck pricks in uniforms annoying you, decent pubs and decent beer. And if you go to the FL in the summer its 35 deg's, humid as hell, you are dripping with sweat before you even get the engine started and there bloody love bugs everywhere.

MJ

PS if Euan has moved it may be worth checking out that school as well. Its the instructor that counts not the school as such. And if you are going to sit next to someone for 25hours plus its worth and extra 200-300 quid to get someone you get on with.

The most appropriate comments - clear and concise come from young skay walker!

I wasn't sure why you thought that in Scotland you could be 100 miles from an airport! Try looking at a map and I bet thats not possible!!

Common sense should prevail - perhaps we need more!

was the original question.............

Judging from all the above I would say the answer is a resounding yes. Be very cautious.

Sorry wasn't counting the western isles in that 100miles but if you want to chance doing a 50 mile water crossing when the airport isn't open and no wx available feel free.

MJ,

I know what you were saying, and you are right about the airports (or lack of them) in Northern Scotland. If an airport goes out of limits then you are pretty goosed in some parts, but then again for most south of the border, this kind of consideration is not an issue with numerous airports/ strips to choose from. Guess its just part of the joys of flying in Scotland.:ok:

Just to echo Sk8erboi's comments above, yes be very wary with FAS. This thread has proved that that there are numerous quality FTO's within Scotland to choose from, choose wisely!!

C99

Is Katana G-MZ one of FAS's?

Seen flying the wrong direction in the Polmont Lane today.

Not impressed.

NS

Mad Jock

Unfortunately the only way to fly with Euan at the moment is to join the Army Air Corps as he's working for DEFTS at Middle Wallop on Army Flying Grading. I think you'd also be hard pressed to get him out of a FireflyM260 and into a Cessna at the moment. Having FireflyM160s at Army Grading is bad enough... After the M260 it's like jumping from a TVR into an MX5....

Anyway he's happy getting to turn up at work in a green growbag and going off to teach aerobatics to potential steely-eyed Apache pilots. If any of the Scottish flying schools acquire anything with enough poke to do vertical rolls he might be persuaded to come back on the odd weekend to do some instruction...

ST

Hi mate,
Well the extra 300 is on order, unfortunately it's only in my dreams at the moment........:{

Nedd to find someone rich (and daft enough) to buy one and let us operate it. Oooh look a squadron of pigs at 2000 ft!

NS ??
 

Can someone tell me HOW you can fly the wrong way in the polmont lane ????

I've seen people fly in the VFR lanes at EDI on the wrong side a few times. It's a bit disconcerting when you're inbound in the Polmont lane keeping the motorway on your left when ATC calls opposite direction traffic which appears head-on at 1/4 of a mile. Had a PA28 do this to me once.

Do bear in mind before condemning FAS as being gash for seeing what was 'possibly' one of their a/c going the wrong way down a VFR lane that it could have been a solo student or PPL and is not necessarily indicative of the school's standards. Even at the most professional civilian school that I worked for I saw a minority of PPLs do the most £uckwitted things in aeroplanes once they were let loose unsupervised. It happens everywhere I'm afraid...

Extra 300! mmmm.... Any aeroplane that needs ratchet harnesses to clamp you to the seat gets my vote!

ST

You're at FAS aren't you Luckyflyer? If you know what the Polmont Lane is and have to ask that question then this thread really has been concluded. One aircraft flying the wrong way and one student who doesn't even thinkthere is a wrong way! Priceless!

Professional pilots make mistakes. PPLs make mistakes. ATCOs make mistakes. AFIs make mistakes .. etc, etc.

It's lucky NorthSouth never does .. helps even the balance a bit :}

yes, you are absolutely right! A little humility is never misplaced - even an important politician has just realised that!!

I guess as everyone gets more experienced there will be a realisation that we all make mistakes and there but for the grace of............................................