BeechNut

I never intended to intentially spin a PA28, I was merely stating that as the majority of my flying in a PA28 will be 3 or 4 up then I would prefer the majority of my training to be in the same configuration.

I asked the school why I could not be demonstrated slow flight with 4 up (and within the safety envelope), they said it is too dangerous, I said even within the defined safety envelope, they said yes and continued to explain how a PA28 with only 2 up got into an unrecoverable spin and both died. I said so is it too dangerous to fly 2 up in slow flight, they said no. My point is, if the w&b say it is safe to do a certain manouvre with a certain weight then I would like to have it demonstrated, if it is deemed unsafe then the 'envelope' should be narrowed.

This is along the same mentality as taking spin training out of the PPL syllabus. While I hate the thought of getting into a spin I would prefer to experience one under controlled conditions. I have now done this under controlled conditions and can tell you that I would probably NEVER get out of a spin in a Tomahawk if I had never experienced a spin, now, I feel like I would have a bloody good chance but am also more aware of avioding the stall to ensure I never get to the full spin because I know from experience that I would probably have trouble recovering. (I am contemplating aerobatic training this year purely for safety reasons, and maybe a little fun :) )

I said, what if I get checked out without being demonstrated slow flight fully loaded than take my family (4 of us) up for a flight then for some reason have to fly slow. They said you should not do slow flight with 4 up. I asked so, I can never go below 100kts? err, of course, approach is around 75kts. Can I go no slower than 75kts then? If so, how slow is safe? what does it feel like? etc.

What if my ASI fails, how do I know how safe to fly, by 'feel' they said, but I have never felt this under these circumstances?


We went round in circles as you can imagine. ..


I am a confindent PPL but do not want to pretend I know everything, far from it, if I have any questions (plenty) or doubts (a few) about anything I am happy to pay for instruction rather than just jump in and hope for the best. If an instructor cannot or will not show me when my request is perfectly acceptable and within the safety envelope of the plane then he/she should not be an instructor IMHO.

zerouali,

They let you spin a PA28-161 with someone in the back seat???

For that matter, they let you spin a PA28-161? Looking at my PA28-161 manual, it isn't even cleared for spins!!!

The Cherokee 140 I owned WAS cleared for spins, but most emphatically, NOT with anyone in the back seat. The aircraft had to be operated in the Utility Category for that.

BeechNut

If their instructors are not capable of monitoring you doing slow flight (say 55 kts or less) with passengers onboard, then in my opinion they are rubbish and you should go else where and be done with them. You'd have to manhandle a PA28 pretty badly to put it into a spin with an instructor onboard!

Even without an instructor it's pretty difficult! The PA28 is the most docile aircraft that I've flown, more so than the PA38 which flips into a spin quite easily by comparison hence "traumahawk".

I rent aircraft from many different schools, mainly in the USA and always with a pax. and often with a different passenger and I always take them with me on the rental check out ride. I always provide a sick bag as insurance against being “pebledashed”. :yuk: The USA check ride includes full power on and power off stalls and steep turns and at least that way, both you and the passenger gets to learn if there are likely to be any problems during the rest of the flying. A check ride is pretty much as bad as it’s going to get for them and if they are sick, the instructor can take over the control whilst you pacify the casualty (hasn’t happened yet).

A couple of hours (total of 4 hours for two pilots) should be all that you need for “differences training” providing that you are “current”. And that would be for switching to a high wing too.

So far as the other mob are concerned, just let it go - you wont win! (I like the pig analogy) :} Complain with your feet – providing you haven’t paid up front – don’t ever pay up front!

pponting,

Just for a laugh, ask the school for their view of the CofG in a PA28-161 with 2 people in the front seats, none in the back, and each of full, tabs and 45 minutes fuel on board.

Then insist that you won't fly their aircraft WITHOUT somebody in the back. Ever. :)

Rgds,

TPK:ok:

Only common sense would tell you that if you are to be flying with 3 pax then you want to know what it at least feels like to be fully loaded - I dont see a reason why you cant do this and it sounds like you have been told a load of old pony. It's a shame it ended up like that with the flying school you have been with for so long, but it is your well earned money that matters and the only way to complain (and rub it in a little) would be to move next door :ok:

Some years ago (rather a lot, actually), with a grand total of 35 hours all on Cessna 150s, a shiny new PPL and not having flown at all for 11 months, I arrived at a totally unfamiliar aerodrome to 'convert' onto a Cherokee 140. I did a single 1 hr flight, then a 10 minute solo - and that was all.

You have over twice the total I had, plus the benefit of more comprehensive training and you are also in current flying practice.

I therefore fail to compehend how your Cherokee conversion could conceivably take more than 1-2 hours at the absolute maximum.

My checkout from flying C150 and C172 to PA28 was 55 mins logged, at the same airfield as pponting with 103 hours P1. I had flown in the back while someone else did his checkout which in my opinion helped considerably. Maybe that's why they don't want you flying in the back, it will reduce the amount of cash they can sting you for.
Sounds like a short walk is indicated. Snag is, it involves yet more membership fees.
It's not easy to move flying schools and all you are familiar with, but I had to do it when management changed where I was, so it wasn't an option to stay. Hope you get on ok.

PA28 Checkout
 

What is the purpose of the checkout?

You are a qualified pilot. The checkout is not a training flight! The purpose is to give you the opportunity to discover before flying PIC the full operating characteristics of the aircraft and to know it's best operation - in accordance with the Pilots Operating Manual. For you to have the fullest knowledge this should be practiced throughout the whole of the a/c permitted operating envelope.

The time it takes is the time it takes. It is quite proper for the school to insist that the flight is lawful. But if the aircraft is within the c of g for the exercise i would have no problem having another qualified pilot in the back. I would not want a non flyer when we intended to do relatively high G manouervers such as in steep turns and possibly negative G with stall recoveries.

I find that it is very rare for a current pilot on such as a PA28 to do more than a single upper air review plus a circuit detail to complete. If done in one flight 1:30hr would normally be max.

Who is saying all that you have reported? Does the CFI know what is being said to you. If it is the fancy of a single FI without justification then the school shouldn't suffer. The CFI should be made aware and may resolve the issue.

If it is the policy of the school then as others have said you have a pair of feet.

I am not sure if the CFI is aware or not, I guess he has heard 'their' side of it.

I did ask to speak with the owner (Director) of the flying school, I was told he was too busy. I told the desk that I will be leaving the school if the director would not give me 5 minutes sometime that day, I was told to leave my number and he will call me sometime for an appointment! They allowed me to walk out knowing I would not come back so I guess I know where I stand.

They can shove their school were the sun don't shine if I do not get a call with a sincere appology (at least).

I must admit, I have been warned about their penny pinching antics for at least 3 years. I have been stung for incorrect bills (in their favour) many times. Having additional landings added onto my bill weeks later, attempting to charge me twice for membership and even once claiming I hadn't paid for a full hours flight (they did apologise for the last one when I proved them wrong, again!)

I'v come to this thread a little late and all that I would have said about this "flying school" has all ready been said and you have reached the right conclution.

Now can we please have a hint or two as to who the rip off merchants are ? this way other people will not have to climb the same learning curve and who knows the school may mend it's ways ?!

Oh Dear!
 

I cannot understand how any director can be too busy to see a customer for they are a director of nothing without the customer.

However, it is the CFI that you need to see for it is he/she that will decide training and operating policy. The director will only refer.

It would not be right to outright name and shame a flying school without them being able to defend themselves here. I will be informing them of this thread however, tonight I have just been informed by my 'new' Liverpool based flying school/club, Ravenair next door (hint hint), that they will check me out in their PA28 and it will take as long as it takes. He said that based on my flying (I just did a PA38 checkflight with him) that it is likely to take no more that 1 hour or 1.5 hours but all depends on the flight at the time.

To be totally honest, I am not 100% sure the director actually made the decision not to speak to me, I got the feeling this was possibly a fabrication of the truth.

Actually reminds me of when I first spoke to the said school - they were extremely insistent on the fact that it would take much longer than 45 hours to gain the PPL. Now, I know it is very rare to complete in 45, but it seemed to be drilled into me quite a bit. Is this another money grabber or do they "ensure the fullest possible training" possible?

Mazzy,

I don't believe that. I think it is possible to complete in 45 hours. I don't wish to make it sound like a competition, but I think it is healthy to aim for realistic targets. It is very easy to keep racking the hours up.

The Pirate King made a good point, In the PA28 I fly, with me and 1 pax + tabs I need 100lbs of ballast in the back seat.
I did all my ppl training that way inc slow flight, stalls etc
wonder what they make of that.

Are you sure you've got the W&CG right? I've flown several PA28s in that format, and none have ever come all that close to the forward limit - unless you and your pax both weigh about 18 stone?

G

:O
I am certainly a touch on the large side, so was my instructor
I spent ages doing the calculations and with the two of us this was the only config. that worked. even at that it put us at virtually MAUW.
Interestingly tho my instructor and examiner were happy to fly with or without the ballast.

Yorks,

That would be my (hiterto ignored) point. I'm not that large (12 - 13st) and I would guess my erstwhile instructor was about the same. I can't remember whether fuel is forward or aft of the normal CofG range - that is, whether the situation is worse with full or nearly empty tanks.

Either way, the PA28-161 is operating very close to its limits with no ballast (walking or otherwise) in the back. This never stops them instructing/testing in them though, does it?

TPK:ok: