Blank logbook column
 

I’m a few weeks from starting my PPL and I’ve just bought myself a nice new logbook with the following columns in the main pages:

http://www.leatherlogbook.com/im/log_1.gif
http://www.leatherlogbook.com/im/log_2.gif

As you can see, it has columns for:
Date, Aircraft, P1, P2, From/To, Remarks and columns for hour’s breakdown. It also has a blank column.

As I don’t have any practical experience I wanted to get opinions on what the blank column should be used for (bearing in mind that I intend to fly commercially)?
I’ve looked at section 28 of the ANO and the logbook seems to cover everything.

Any suggestions?

Entirely up to you - the law doesn't define anything but the absolute minimum information that must be in your logbook.

You might, for example do some glider, helicopter or microlight flying - in which case the spare couple of columns would be ideal for the purpose.

On the other hand, although it doesn't legally comprise part of your total flying hours the odds are you'll manage to scrounge some interesting and educational passenger flights as you go along. Many people use a spare logbook column for these flights as well.

For that matter, there's nothing to stop you recycling other columns (such as multi-engine) which you are unlikely to use for a few years.

G

Some people use them to record their instructional hours to make them easier to add up if they do monthly or annual summaries. Or their cross-country hours as opposed 'local' hours (you will find you need to identify those separately on the form if you apply for a professional licence). Or maybe (one day) turbine hours.

As Genghis says, anything you like really.

Or a continuous running total column for all flying (again useful for 1/4lys and annual summaries)

The PPL course (JAR-FCL 45 hours minimum) must include:

10 hours supervised solo time - No problem, you already have a column for this.

25 hours dual flight instruction - similarly you already have a column for this.

2 hours stall awareness and spin avoidance training - so mark one of the spare columns " SSAT " and enter the time that you spend on this which will be less than the total time of that particular lesson.

5 hours solo cross-country time - so mark one of the spare columns "Solo XC".

This will make checking you have all the correct minimums easier both for you during the course, and for the CAA when you send off for your licence.

But, as has been pointed out, how you fill in your logbook is entirely up to you, subject just to the minimum information required by the regs.

Good luck with the course !

Floatplane time! - I don't have a spare column in my log book for that ...

PPRuNe post-count - this is obviously a vital measure of proficiency in all things "flying".

The three columns are for:
Humorous posts
Factual Posts
Useful Posts

:rolleyes:

I second Gertrude's opinion: floatplane time would be highly appropriate (better keep a very specific record of such experience for insurance purposes). Time on tailwheel airplanes might be another idea.

Gengis' suggestions are also good (although if you have, or later obtain, gliding experience, you will no doubt have a separate logbook for that).

I don't agree with the suggestion of devoting a column to stalls and spins; you only have three blank columns, so it seems a shame to waste one on something like that (when you practice the relevant exercises, just make appropriate notations in the "remarks" column). But the idea of a cross-country column makes sense (don't limit it to solo; whether the flights were solo or dual will be obvious from the "Pilot in Command" column).

Notwithstanding all of the above, I'd recommend leaving all three of the blank columns 'virgin' until after you've completed the PPL, when you'll have a better idea of what sort of flying you'll regularly be doing in the future.

One final comment: I've seen too many logbooks that are a complete mess. As your logbook is the only permanent record of your flying, keep it nice and tidy: always print neatly, and use only one colour pen (IMHO black usually looks nicer than blue, but that choice matters less than being consistent).

Go buy another logbook. Use one to make entries as you do the flying, i.e. land, refuel, put aircraft away, fill out logbook. Then you go home and transfer entries to your 'good' logbook. You are bound to make a mess the first time. You should probably have your good one with you at all times as it will presumably be the one with all your sign offs in but it can be kept in your bag/ car/pocket. Mine had tea spilled on it in its first week. Don't be afraid to write more than is required. If a flight turned out to be special, say so and why it was.

Mike W

blimey, neat log books, one colour pen...... are we keeping a set of accounts or the colourfull story of our flying life here?

Mine has more colours of ink, coffee, beer and god knows what else. It has doodles and comments and the current book with a thousand hours in it looks a little sorry for itslelf. But I would not change a thing about it. It is a representation of the wide variety of flying I have done but quite clearly records the hours as required.

Flying is an expression of freedom despite the endless rules and regulations we experiance and the log book should reflect this.

If I had a spare column I would probably record the number of inflight farts I have done or the number of sandwiches I have dropped under the seat.

To each his own. If you or anyone else wants a logbook full of stains and illegible multi-coloured scribbles, it's no skin off my nose. Still, as an instructor I know that I often form an impression of a pilot's attitude (careful or careless) based upon his logbook; and flying with those pilots usually bears out such first impressions.

Although my own logbook is neat and tidy, it is not as soulless as you imply (I've used rubber stamps to include images of every airplane that I have soloed, next to the relevant 'first solo' entries).

I agree absolutely. :ok: My logbook is for ME! Sure, it includes the legal requirements, the stuff the CAA wants. But it also has notes on who I took with me, anything I thought was important, be it thunderstorms or a wonderful view, passenger flights in anything interesting, photos, Russian stamps, signatures, crossings out, tippex, coffee stains, cat paw marks, etc etc etc etc. And you know what? I wouldn't change ANY of it. It's my record of my flying, with what I think is important.

So you keep your neat, tidy, sterile, boring log book if you want; I prefer mine.:ok:

I'm afraid that they don't do enough stamps for some of us :p ; seriously the remarks column is there to be used - it is possible for a logbook to be reasonably neat and tidy (I seem to get tidier as I get older - at-least in my logbook) and contain a lot of "colour" about what you've done and where you've been.

G

Ah, there speaks the voice of reason! Of course it is. There's a balance between an illegible misspelled scrawl, and the beautiful neat logbook that lives at home...and is six months behind as its owner never quite gets round to transferring the information - I kid you not, I know someone whose "good" log book is like that!

I have one pet hate, and that's using ICAO codes for airfields instead of their full names. I like to know at a glance where I've been, and I won't even abbreviate the airfield name. Space became a bit of a problem the day I flew from Sherburn-in-Elmet to Hinton-in-the-Hedges. :)

steady on MLS-12, that is a very broad, sweeping and innacurate statement.

Anyof those who fly with me on this list will attest to my flying and those others that have the same view on log books that I know.

A log book givs no representation of a pilots attitude or ability.

That is probably the most arrogant statement I have heard you make and you have made a few!

I'm no apologist for MLS, but can see where he's coming from. Whilst it is a generalisation, I find it quite rare to see gash flying or engineering from somebody whose paperwork is neat and systematic. Similarly, I've learned through experience that if somebody's paperwork is gash, incomplete or inconsistent it's not unusual to find that some other aspect of their work is too.

But, it is still a generalisation - Whirly's logbook may well be very scruffy but I know her to be a very cautious and safe pilot; similarly I can think of one or two people who have produced beautifully neat and tidy paperwork, and some very dodgy aviation!

However, we should take every clue available to us, and I'd defend MLS's view that he should take a slightly deeper look at somebody who can't keep their logbook neat and tidy.

G

I use one blank column for tail-wheel time, and one for float-plane time. The tail-wheel time is very useful if you ever buy a tail-dragger (or a share in one), because the insurance company will need to know it. Keeping track of float-plane time, for me at least, is far less useful because I doubt I'll ever own one, but it adds a bit of interest to the numbers just the same.

FFF
--------------

MLS makes an interesting point. Does a person's attitude to one thing reflect their attitude to everything? The answer is probably yes, but it needs to be looked at more deeply than he is doing (or implying in this thread anyway).

To take my logbook as an example (only because I know about me), it isn't actually very scruffy. But it isn't completely neat and tidy either, mainly because I carry it with me, fill it out as I go, change things if necessary, and don't worry too much so long as it's reasonably legible. As I see it, I take pride in it being readable, but appropriate.

Now, does this reflect the way I do other things? Yes, actually. If you ask me to do anything, from writing an article to sending you something in the post to arriving at an airfield, I'll do it immediately and well. But I won't worry too much if it doesn't look perfect, if looks are not the primary consideration. And I am a careful pilot, but I don't insist on care for it's own sake, only when and where I feel it's required...which means, for instance, that I occasionally forget to fasten waist harnesses in an aircraft when it's on the ground and I'm about to go flying again in half an hour.

Now, let's take the friend I mentioned. This person keeps a very neat logbook at home, but it's always several months behind. :( If asked to do something, this person will do it perfectly, but that quest for perfection means it may take ages and ages for it to be done, even if time is important and looks aren't.

I'm sure there are all sorts of variations on this theme, and they probably all tell you something about the person concerned. The trouble is, without knowing ALL the facts, and the reasons behind them, it's not always completely clear what the conclusions are.

That Logbook does not meet the requirements for the recording of flight time in the UK or in Europe.

LASORS and JAR-FCL show what must be recorded.

What is missing is time of departure and time of arrival.

You can either return the book unused and obtain a correct format one or you can modify this one so that the required details are recorded for each flight.

Regards,

DFC

If you think that you might at some time fall foul of the 3 landing in 90 days rule for takeing passengers, you could have one column for recording landing.

My logbook doesn't meet the requirements for flight time in Europe, and no one seems to care....though mine does have colums for landings / instrument approaches / rotorcraft in addition to the usual blurb.

As you're going to fly commercially, how about saving the column for "Turbine" time...?

I'm not familiar with Europe - can anyone tell me why people there need to record the time of departure etc?

As far as landings go, I dont waste a columnn on that as I dont see the need to keep a cumulative total of them. I record landings in the General Remarks space, and its pretty easy to see whether or not you meet the 3 in 90 limit or not.

A column for tailwheel, one for turbine, one for floats, one for instructing, one for flights with puppies on board, one for rotary wing, use the other columns however you want. Remember too that if you use one column for, say, floats, and then in a while you stop flying floats but need a new column for meatbombing say, you can always retitle columns. Just keep track of them.

Good luck;

No one should take offence at my suggestion that a messy logbook "usually" indicates a careless pilot. Obviously this is a generalisation, and as such is implicitly subject to exceptions.

I did not say - and do not believe - that first impressions count for everything. However, it is an unfortunate fact of life that quite often one doesn't get a chance to make a second impression.

I agree with everyone who has said or implied that "it's my logbook, I'll make whatever entries I like". All I meant to suggest is that you might want to keep those entries neatly. I don't see any obvious downside to that (although I agree with Whirly that a pristine but out-of-date logbook at home is of little use. As with most things in life, it's better to do something 90% and on time, than 100% but late).

MLS

Tipp-ex...sign of messy person or a perfectionist!?
 

So what does tipp-ex signify!? I use a lot of tipp-ex purely because I often write the wrong thing down (I'm blonde!)
I have photos in my logbook to make it my own, i always wrote down what i did in each flight in the remarks section, what passenger i took and also a tally of landings as the CAA log book didn't have a colunm for it! My military one however does...

I don't think a messy logbook or messy writing says a lot about a person's flying. Mine is quite (very) messy in the tipp-ex department but that is because i like my logbook to look neat and be presentable. I also write in black for ease of photocopying.

I look at my logbook as the instrument of future nostalgia that I'll sit back and read when I'm old and can't fly anymore. My logbook is my diary. It recalls some of the happiest moments of my life - those I've spend aloft, sometimes alone, sometimes in the company of others. If I have any, I may even leaf through its pages to bore my grandkids with tales of flying and derring-do in my golden age of aviation. If I don't have grandkids, I'll borrow someone else's and bore them!

I'll remember the flights, the weather, the people I flew as passengers and the people with whom I flew in formation. I'll remember the things I saw along the way and how well first time passengers did with the controls or how excited they were to be airborne in a light plane for the first time. I'll remember the Young Eagle who, at age 12, loosed a sailor's technicolor vocabulary of excitement through the entire flight. I'll remember landing back at the club at the end of a long summer afternoon flight to nowhere and seeing the sun set as I landed on 28. I'll remember the night in front of the pub at Keyston when we celebrated our mate's first flight after regaining his medical. I'll remember that same weekend doing a demo over the strip for my friends and being the only one who didn't see the Spitfire that came from nowhere and jumped me. I'll remember the lump in my throat after my first flight in my Pitts, taxying back past the tower after my third and final landing to see the rooftop crowded with wellwishers and friends wanting to share that experience with me. I'll remember the names and faces of every person I took up as a passenger. I'll see precisely how many hours I logged in taildraggers, how many in my Pitts, how many spent in aerobatics, how many solo, dual, and cross country.

I'll remember all these things because they're all written in my logbook.

Pitts2112

Good for you, Pitts.

0-8,

As I don’t have any practical experience I wanted to get opinions on what the blank column should be used for (bearing in mind that I intend to fly commercially)?

It's all been said, but you can get another log book when you start flying 'commercially' (whatever that means) and carry your totals forward.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I’ll add the take off - landing times to make it comply with LASORS. But other than that I think I’ll wait until I’ve done some flying and found out what interests me the most, tailwheel, aerobatics, etc.

So for now the blank columns are staying blank!

Can you remind me what the requirement is for takeoff and landing times? I've always thought that was the most unuseful trivia to keep in a logbook and have never done so myself. American logbooks don't have columns for it (it sounds like you may have an American logbook).

Pitts2112

PS - the columns I keep are
Date
Aircraft make
Registration
From
To
REmarks (usually take up a couple of lines for this)
no. of landings
Aircraft classification (SEL)
Tailwheel time (added in a blank column)
Pitts time (added in a blank column)
Acro time (added)
cross-country
Conditions of flight (day or night, don't fly instrument)
type of piloting time (PIC or dual)

So far as I am aware, the UK ANO does not require you to record take-off and landing times; apparently however JAR-FCL does for training requirements. However, the vast majority of both British and American logbooks that I've ever seen have included these columns, so it's rarely been a problem.

One of my better decisions was at the age of 20 when I had my first civil flying lesson, to buy a large commercial logbook (the then-equivalent of what is now Pooleys commercial logbook). Having large numbers of columns this has served for all of my flying - which has covered a lot of things, so at the moment my headings (modified from the original somewhat) now read:-

(Left hand page - all as original)
Year, date, type, reg, pilot in command, co-pilot or student, From&to, Departure time, arrival time

(Right hand page, totally unoriginal)
Light single (dual / P1), microlight 3-axis (dual/single), microlight weightshift (dual / single), motorglider (dual/single), glider (dual / single), night, IFR, Flight test observer, Spare, remarks.

(Summary block at the bottom)
Total piloting hours
Grand total flying hours (this includes my flight test observing)
Total types (88!)
Hours in microlights
Total as pilot in command

It previously also had total hours in ejection seats, but not having flown Martin Baker for a few years now, that has been removed until I need it again.

I may from time to time tweak the headings - easy enough since I make up the stickers that go over the existing columns on my PC and just make sure I've put a note when it changes. And, despite all of this, it looks neat, and CAA have seen it many times and have no problem with it.

The other good reason for having bought that particular logbook, is that I was able to buy a leather cover for it.

Works for me anyhow.

G

Indeed the ANO doesn't but according to LARORS’ Section A, Appendix B:


General information
Details of all flights flown as a pilot shall be kept in a
reliable record in a logbook format acceptable to the
Authority (see IEM FCL 1.080/2.080)…

Required information
The record shall contain the following information:
1. Personal details:
a. Name and address of the holder;
b. Particulars of each flight during which the
holder of the logbook acted as either a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for
the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under the Air Navigation
Order.
2. For each flight:
a. Name of Pilot-in-command.
b. Date (day, month, year) of flight.
c. Place and time of departure and arrival (times
(UTC) to be block time).
d. Type (aeroplane make, model and variant)
and registration of aeroplane.
e. SE, ME.
f. Total time of flight.
g. Accumulated total time of flight.
3. Operational conditions:
a. Night
b. IFR
4. Particulars of any test or examination
undertaken whilst in flight.

I note from your profile that you have a US [FAA] PPL and as I understand it there is no need for you to add the departure/arrival times?

My logbook is actually Canadian - www.leatherlogbook.com. I only checked the ANO not LASORS before buying the logbook, but adding the extra column is no big deal.

0-8,

That's a very nice looking logbook, good to see you can still get quality nowadays, though at a price! The columns would not make much sense for the type of flying I do, but I can see if you want to fly for the airlines they would work. PS I don't think that even the US Professional Jep logbook has departure/arrival times. Nobody really cares about that sort of stuff in FAA land.

in CAA land the CAA need to know the exact details of the flight so they can match your logged flight times with the time of complaint, that way they can use your own log book as damning evidence!!!

:O

Bose - reason if I've ever heard one to not log times!

GtE - how often do you fly as a "Spare"? :-) (anyone tell me how you insert cartoon smileys?)

O-8, at the end of the day, I like GtE's idea, and, had I thought of it, I would have done the same. I've evolved my view of my logbook over time. I used to think it was a very official document open to immediate and frequent scrutiny by "the authorities". Now I look at it as a very personal and sentimental object, more like a scapbook. In fact, I really like the one you got and may do something like that, even though I'm only half way through my current one. It has more space for photos and other stuff.

Anyway, this has been a fascinating view into the private lives of logbooks. I never thought your original question would get such interesting responses. Guess I didn't know the Pprune crowd very well, huh?

Cheers,
Pitts2112

In the UK, the law relating to the maintenance of a personal logbook is contained in Article 28 of the ANO, which requires:

(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).

(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.

(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.

(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.

At present, neither the provisions of JAR-FCL 1 nor LASORS relating to the maintenance of logbooks are legally enforceable in the UK and both may be safely ignored. This may all change with the advent of EASA as anything that is taken into the EASA standard will become European law and will supersede the ANO.

I agree that leatherlogbook.com makes the classiest logbooks available; and they have several blank columns, so you can customize them to your personal requirements.

In Canada, paragraph 401.08(2) of the CARs applies:

I have never seen a logbook with columns for the entry of takeoff and landing times (why would one bother with that sort of trivia?).

When, I'm afraid, you live in a country like the UK where it's far too easy to transgress controlled airspace, and far too likely that the CAA will phone you up and demand to know if you were the captain of a particular aircraft, at a certain time.




Pitts2112
I'm seriously considering for 2005 changing "spare" to "taildragger", since I seem to be doing more and more of that over the last year or two, and am contemplating becoming a proper tailwheel snob. There's much to be said for being able to change your headings year-on-year.

My insert was created for an Airtour commercial logbook, if you want a copy drop me an Email and I'll mail you the MS Word file - will give you a starting point. Same of-course applies to anybody else who'd find it useful. [email protected]

G

A somewhat related thread.