In my (limited) experience you have to try quite hard to infringe CAS when talking to ATC - they usually say something first ('CAS in your 12 o'clock range 3 miles, what are your intentions...?'). On Thursday routing Benson - Cambridge via CFD the Cranfield chap twice asked my level pointedly as I approached CFD and asked me to confirm I was aware of that nastly little corner of Luton airspace just by Cranfield (actually I was tracking a radial inbound so I was fairly sure I was clear, but at FL40 I would have been inside if I was wrong! Similarly he was very concerned to make sure I missed the new DA to the northeast.

I'm sure when I do bust CAS for the first time I'll discover it's easier than I thought!

Club policy BTW is that if you find yourself in CAS you declare a Pan immediately (as you must be lost!).

Tim

Hmm, I don't quite get that. How do you know you're in controlled airspace if you're lost? If you know you are in controlled airspace, you were probably lost 60 seconds ago, but you're not lost now are you?

FFF
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Yes, that logical incongruity had struck me too!

However I guess that if you immediately admit you have a problem to ATC and get their attention you could potentially avoid an AIRPROX or worse, so I guess it's a good thing. Plus when the CAA come knocking you can at least say you did something about it...

Tim

tmmorris

"In my (limited) experience you have to try quite hard to infringe CAS when talking to ATC"

You are of course correct, however many do not take advantage of the services that are available. In the south of England in particular there are some reasonably complex areas of CAS and there are pilots who prefer for whatever reason to receive no service in the open FIR beneath. Of course the trouble is they then "inadvertently" continue at there present level into the CAS which is descending to meet them. Since they havent been receiving a service there is no one to warn them of their impending transgression. The strange thing is they often arent even keeping a listening watch on the frequency which would be likely to warn them. I can think of a number of occasions when the area freqeuncy has been desperately trying to contact an aircraft that has clearly infringed their ATZ / CAS without response.

I don't see how talking on the radio could help a pilot to know where he is. Unless he is getting a RIS/RAS.

There is something a lot more basic going on here. Surely nobody who manages to get a PPL can fail to read the airspace limits on the CAA charts. And if the pilot can pass enough info to a controller to enable the controller to warn him of a bust, surely the pilot ought to be himself aware of the bust?

IO540 - true, sort of, but in fact it's very easy to plan a flight with level changes to avoid CAS, then find you aren't flying it as planned (e.g. cloudbase won't allow), then forget that some of the level changes were required due to CAS, and a timely reminder from ATC would help. Granted whenever ATC have mentioned it I'd already planned to descend/climb accordingly (and I'm IMC rated so the cloudbase is less of an issue) but it's nice of ATC to remind pilots when they give their routing that there is CAS to avoid. And if we haven't read the NOTAMs... (reminder of a flight when solo student where neither I nor my instructor had noticed a TRA for Red Arrows at Shawbury - but the kind Zone controller mentioned it on our initial call and I kept clear while watching very small Arrows at a distance!)

If we all planned and executed our flights immaculately, of course there would be no problem...

Tim

The advice I give to local pilots round here is that I have yet to find anything in the ANO that says getting lost is illegal; infringing CAS however is....therefore if you are at all unsure of position ask for help, the CAA won't be chasing after you just coz you asked for some navigational assistance!!

The phrase "Training Fix" on 121.5 is good way of getting help without too much loss of face (if that's a concern). But we at EGNX are more than happy to help people who might find themselves a little lost and ask for help.

And as an aside viz a viz the initial post, I should think less than 5% of our infringements are reported.

Shame on you Bomber!!!

Seriously - I hate having to fill in paperwork, partly beacuse of the potential implications for a pilot. However, if we don't file, the SRG of the CAA will not know that there is a problem and nothing will be done about it.

As EJ re-iterates - we all make mistakes (mmm like buying a Mazda!) but it is what we do when in the dwang that makes the difference - not only from a safety sense but a legalistic sense.

And sadly it is a real problem. :(

So you know about all the infringements that happen then?

So that 7000 NMC that transits at 3000' where the base is 2400' you know?? You must have a better radar than me then!!!

Being on the Airspace Infringement Working Group I am well aware of the problem of under reporting, however I personally would rather deal with infringements locally by a quiet word with the pilot than going to paperwork over something pretty minor. If however scheduled/IFR traffic has to be delayed or take avoiding action then no question.

And for the record that Mazda was a great car!! Did you know the original Red Mazda guru is 5 months pregnant??

Regards to the missus

Evil J, I guess we sit on the same group? I would like to see ALL infringements reported in order that we can detect trends and act accordingly. In the same breath, depending on the nature of the infringement, I agree that a quiet chat often closes the issue in the most effective way. Indeed, in a previous existence, I would often choose to discuss the issue with the pilot in a manner that would scuttle any opportunity for formal legal action.

And where, prey tell, were you 20 weeks back????

Ah the old ones are the best