Could easily be someone who does all their flying from an airport within class D airspace.

As you'll have noted, if you ask a dozen pilots and ATCOs exactly what the best procedure is for joining from an uncontrolled airfield, you'll get 12 slightly different answers.

(Of course a bit of skilled trolling helps to accentuate those differences... ;))

An interesting use of the word "skilled" bookworm ;)

An American one, in America, perchance?

yes I did an american instrument rating where the system is completely different. I really can't be bothered to read about the difference between FAA IR's and JAA IR's again. so to put your mind at ease clever clogs when you get your JAA IR you will be far better qualfied than me.

That's a bit uncalled for.

No-one here has suggested the FAA regime is lacking generally.

A few have commented that your personal knowledge may require enhancement, but to imply or suggest that all FAA-IR holders wouldn't know how to join Class A airspace is inappropriate.

"Ketchup" or "Mayo" with that chip? :rolleyes: :p
http://www.tdrs.co.uk/aviation/yyy.jpg

Just a little extra info:

With the systems interface that we have on the sectors at London Control, it is impossible for us to take airborne flight plans. We simply do not have the r/t time or the input facilities. So you must file a plan before you get airborne if you want to join UK airways. You can file an airborne one with London INFORMATION, but be prepared to wait while that goes into the computer and is processed to produce flight details on the sectors (30 mins or more).

If you HAVE filed a plan, then a freecall on the sector frequency will certainly be met with a 'Remain Outside Controlled Airspace'. They might be able to get the flight details and offer you a clearance, but equally if they are busy they might not.

A far better plan is to call a neighbouring approach or LARS unit (Lyneham or Brize in this area, I think) and they will try and get you a joining clearance. Otherwise, call London Information with a time estimate and level for the point at which you want to join and they will get it for you. But you MUST remain outside until you have received the clearance, so a good 10 mins warning is best.

Hope this helps. Just remember: normally it's not the controller being unhelpful (although there are a few who lack 'imagination'), it's the constraints of the computers...

thanks.

just to clear any confusion. not started to have a go at air traffic controllers. I don't think that Lyneham are very used to dealing with airways handovers. However i've only ever found them unhelpful 1nce

How do bizjets departing from a Class G airfield do it? I don't think they orbit at 5400ft for 10 mins while waiting for an airways clearance. They must have got a partial clearance before takeoff.

Seems a bit of a polava to me. Why cannot a Biz jet (or anyone for that matter) phone up and get a clearance void time. ie. "G-ABCD is cleared to XYZ, time now is 15 clearance void if not airbourne by 25". On departure the pilot simply contacts the relevant sector controller for further clearance....etc

That way on departure the pilot has a clearance to enter CAS, and from the controllers point of view its easy as they are expecting the departure.....?

Traffic density. It's totally impracticable to make that sort of airspace allocation for one aircraft for the amount of time required. For the clearance to be safe you would have to exclude anyone else joining at that level at that point until the clearance void time. Most of the aircraft joining airways in the busier parts of the country are joining under a radar service with a laid down "miles in trail" set up before being accepted by the centre.

I've made 5 airways joins today from airfields (albeit ATC level) in class 'G' airspace - no problems :)

This may seem a bit silly..........but has everyone stopped reading the AIP since it has been made free?

The procedure and requirements for obtaining an airways clearance including slot requirements and comms failure etc are all clearly laid out in the AIP...........freely available at www.AIS.ORG.UK

I don't care where people are licensed or where they are trained.....they all are told about the AIP system......even US pilots because the FAA produces a very handy publication for pilots wishing to fly outside the USA (International Operations).

Regards,

DFC

Chilli,

Isn't a slot just a clearance with a void time, doesn't the system handle that? It does appear that when they were analysing the requirements for the new ATC system in the UK, nobody thought of asking what the small guys needed. This is also obvious from the NOTAM farce which was eventually sorted out by a couple of people on this board in their spare time.

Come on DFC, if everybody read the literature there would be no use for this board. I also have no idea what the FAA would be doing telling us how to join an airway in the UK, it sounds like the system cannot cope, not that people don't know how to use it. And if nobody posted on this board we wouldn't know that even an unskilled troll is more sophisticated than a crass insult :)

DFC raises an interesting point: Having the AIP on line definitely makes it easier to access specific information when you need it and if you know exactly what you need and in which section it is (like up-to-date airfield info).

However, it is much harder to just browse through the AIP, than it was with the paper copy. I occasionally did this for a happy hour (sad, eh?) at the flying club and picked up all sorts of interesting snippets. But I don't do the same with the CD-ROM or the on-line versions.

I wanted to check out the UK vsibility minima a couple of days ago. It took nearly ten minutes to find the relevant pargraphs on-line. It would have been half that with a paper copy, I suspect.

Am I a dinosaur?

Alan.

Must admit, I read DFC's post and went to the AIP to find the information. After 15 mins or so I gave up, without finding it.

Slim
No - it's totally different. Slots (CTOT's to give them their correct title) are there to regulate the flow of traffic into a given airspace when required. They're allocated up to two hours in advance of EOBT. The slot is totally independant of any clearance that may be issued - in short, it's there for strategic planning.

Clearances to enter CAS however are done on a tactical basis, in an environment that can change from minute to minute. In busy areas of the UK that would be a unacceptable waste of a finite resource (airspace) and so isn't really possible.

I've just discussed this subject with a very experienced IFR (non-deiced non-pressurised SE) pilot who flies airways all over Europe.

He doesn't fly the airways in the UK; apparently it is too much hassle and ATC often shift him way out of his route, sometimes 50 miles off to one side.

The real benefit of an IR appears to be European touring. For example one cannot generally get an IFR departure in France without an "airways" flight plan (the usual 3hrs notice, done via Brussels), but France has uncontrolled airways routes all over the place, down to quite low levels e.g. FL055. VFR pilots fly them too, including myself. But with an IR one can at least fly when the conditions are sub-VFR according to the airport rules.

Engine efficiency issues aside (e.g. turboprops and jets) I am still struggling a little trying to work out exactly what is the benefit of flying UK's Class A airways. All I can think of at the moment is that one can fly at say FL150 (assuming a non-pressurised a/c and using oxygen) which for much of the year (and especially in the winter) will be VMC on top, which is a lot better than 2400ft under the LTMA, trying to get radar info from Farnborough...

But one still has to get up there and if the icing level is say 3000ft, the F215 tops forecast (notoriously unreliable) says tops at 6000ft, and the a/c isn't de-iced?

What am I missing?

Yes Chilli, bad choice of words on my part. Slot <> clearance. Maybe I just see a slot and a 'void with clearance' to be similar in they both require the ATC systems to allocate a block of airspace to be used in the future. Probably doesn't really matter. I do think the 'we are too busy' explanation points to a shortage of ATC resources, other busy places seem to cope adequately with the small guys asking for IFR clearances. Maybe that's what nouseforaname's problem really is, he just expected something different.

IO540 asked The mix of advantages and disadvantages depends on the flight.

Crossing a significant stretch of water (in a SEP), I want to be as high as I can get and with a minimum over-water section. This usually means airways.

If there is a low freezing level and a highish MSA, it's either a no-go (if there is low-level cloud), or climb through the cloud. Again, this will sometimes mean airways.

Finally, if you are flying in solid IMC and your route doesn't lend itself to LARS, you may want the benefit of CAS for guaranteed separation.

The last two boil down to the probability of being able to travel where and when you want is higher if you are able to use airways.

Forgetting the UK for a momement, the main benefit of an IR is a much higher chance of making European journeys when you want to and being able to get back when you want.

Alan.

Englishal,

You need to read page ENR 1-1-1-2.

It's the first page under Enroute "General Rules and Procedures".

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Slimslag,

1. The FAA don't tell pilots how to join airways in the UK. They do tell pilots where they can find that information when operating on international flights i.e. ICAO procedures and National AIPs.

2. The procedure is clearly published in the AIP and the link is given above. You will see references to "clerance expires time" (UK version of clerance void) etc and what they mean.

3. The system manages to flow as well as it does thanks to the flexibility provided by both the pilots and the controllers.

Do you think that making say FL60 unavailable on an airway 80nm either side of a reporting point for 20 minutes and possibly more is making good use of airspace?

Would you like your clearance request to be delayed my some C172 30 miles away who is running 5 minutes late and will take a further 20 minutes to get above the level that you want to join at?.........

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IO540,

France does not have any "uncontrolled airways". Airways in France below FL115 are in general Class E. That is controlled airspace. However, while it is controlled, VFR flights have no requirement for communication with the ACC.

Regards,

DFC

DFC

As far as I can see looking at the 1M SIA chart, France has "airways" all over the place, some in Class E, some in Class D, and some in Class G.

AFAIK any of these "airways" can be used as a route in an IFR flight plan.

The handy thing about these is that they are outside the extensive military airspace.