I was once thinking about that until I did some research and found out to my amazement that it would cost me about £50-60K to get qualified for a job that is relatively low-paid!

That wouldn't be so bad, but to really put the tin hat on it it turns out that there are thousands who have actually done this and can't even get even the low-paid flying jobs!

So I'm just doing it for fun. I hope at some point to be able to fly to some business meetings but I'm not kidding myself it will be any faster and certainly not any cheaper than using the car:)

- Michael

My feelings exactly!

Mazzy,

SquawkIdent makes a good point. Unless you already hold a valid Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence, using your scanner is illegal. See the Ofcom website for more details:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/codes_guidel...ofw156?a=87101

My interpretation of this is that ATC transmissions are not "general reception transmissions" (that is, they are not meant for the general public, but for specific parties), and therefore under section 5(1)(b) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949, only licenced operators are entitled to listen to the transmissions.

Under the "general reception" section, there is talk of "navigation transmissions". I believe this refers to GPS, TrafficMaster, etc. rather than ATC.

Of course, there is a big question over the likelihood of getting caught... :rolleyes:

TPK:ok:

SQUAWKIDENT

Thanks mate - where can I get one of these telescopic antenna's and how will I know it will fit?

PirateKing

Thanks for that info - I really wasnt aware of that! My question is, can I use the scanner (legally) once I have my PPL and the radio license that goes with it? I know you can get your radio license way ahead of passing your actual PPL so is this sufficient/correct license? Because when you are flying your not only listening in but also broadcasting?

With regards to the CPL/ATPL business - I know exactly what you mean. Before I started training I was so full of "Yeah I want ATPL and wanna fly for British Airways" in other words, I was a naieve wreck! Now I am totally happy whilst in training and totally enjoy flying every Sunday even though I am still learning. I can only imagine that once I get my license that it will become even better. I would settle for a nice aircraft share and regular fun flying :)

Thanks

Lee

Mazzy,

The FRTOL and the PPL are separate things, both issued by the CAA. You can get a PPL without getting an FRTOL - I know at least one person who is in the situation. This allows you to fly non-radio. (Legally, without even listening in... but hey!)

I am not aware of anybody having obtained an FRTOL without getting a PPL too, and I'm not even sure you can do so. The CAA may well only allow you to apply for an FRTOL if you have, or are simultaneously applying for, a PPL. Like I said - I don't really know.

As I said before, the chances of anyone catching you are pretty small. If you have a transceiver (i.e. the ability to transmit) be careful not to accidentally do so, because they WILL track you down, and you WILL be in trouble! ;)

And if they do catch you listening in, and you point to your on-going PPL training, I would expect the worst outcome would be a slap on the wrist. But, then again, I'm not the CAA! :\

TPK:ok:

Pirateking - Just had a look at LASORs and it says you only need a FRTOL to transmit - with the exception of pilots under training. I think anyone can listen in otherwise you would have hundreds of spotters being arrested all the time.

Equally you can listen in to police radio quite legally, it is acting on information recived that way that is illegal (as told to me by a policeman).

Lee

Link here for telescopic replacement antenna for Maycom AR-108
(scroll down to the Maycom and select accessories)

http://www.airsupply.co.uk/acatalog/...RODUCTS_1.html

Bit pricey IMO but definitely improves reception for me here in London. Can now hear Heathrow ATC and most of the Swanwick ground controllers (and Volmet comes in nice and clear which is very useful before I set out to go flying..)

Cheers

Adam

c-bert,

I don't wish to start an argument, and maybe your information is better than mine, but if you check the link I gave earlier, you will find the legal situation as laid out by the actual regulator of all things (radio-)telegraphic and (radio-)telephonic.

It is quite clear that receiving, for example, police transmissions is illegal. The specific question regarding listening to police transmissions and not acting on them is covered in the FAQ at the bottom.

Of course, how an individual policeman acts in relation to the law is another question. One in London the other day told me outright that he had no idea how to enforce the new zebra crossings they have which don't have zig-zag lines approaching them. Police officers make mistakes. (Just ask the magistrate who threw out my speeding case! :D)

WRT an FRTOL, I think you'll find you are only allowed to exercise the priviledges of the licence is relation to the safe conduct of a flight. Ergo, using one to have a chin-wag with your mate in the air, for example, is not allowed.

Editted to add that LASORS, section B1.1 states "the FRTOL does not entitle the holder to operate a radio station which is installed anywhere other than in an aircraft". Therefore, it specifically does not entitle the holder to use a handheld radio (except, perhaps, inside an airplane in event of a failure of a fixed radio installation).

Rgds,

TPK:ok:

PirateKing - no arguement (hopefully). I stand corrected on the police thing. As I said it was word of mouth only.

Have just read the link you provided. Seems I am completely in the wrong! :* :ok: . My unreserved appologies.

Having said that, I wonder how many people who own a scanner have a licence to operate one....?

So why is it that all the spotters who stand at Manchester viewing point (or any airfield for that matter) aren't arrested? Even when I go flying I see loads of them at Liverpool - is it one of them laws that only exist as an item on paper and that nobody really is out to catch? I can understand if you are transmitting - which would be stupid and perhaps dangerous, wouldnt even go there!!

Cheers

Lee

Mazzy,

Same reason not all speeders are arrested. And not all shopkeepers/pubs that sell cigarettes/alcolhol to minors. And not all PPLs who accidentally stray into a bif of fluff at 2500ft. And not all white van men who block yellow box junctions. And not all cyclists who think traffic lights don't apply to them. (etc, etc, ad nauseum).

Enforcement is tricky. Although a gathering of "users" at, say, the local airport would be quite obvious, I suspect that nobody is really that interested. It's pretty harmless.

I simply wanted to make sure you were aware of the law. I use my scanner quite regularly to listen to traffic at Blackbushe. (And even to listen for friends coming to pick me up - I can be a Blackbushe before they land if I leave home when I hear their first radio call! :D )

Cheers!

TPK:ok:

No problem Pirate - I agree with what you say and will certainly take on board your advice.

Cheers

Lee

I think that with regards to scanners, a bit of common sense is normally applied.

The cost for the enforcement agencies, to prosecute even the minor offenders is beyond proportion inrelation to the severity of the offence, because in order to gather evidence of a person "listening" to a frequency you would need to do covert surveillance requiring an authority in line with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act.

The whole thing moves up a notch when either an unauthorised person acts on that information or actually transmits on that channel. This is quite a severe offence and is usually one which is frequently targetted by the various agencies.

Thepirateking hit the nail on the head. My analogy is that the vast majority of drivers speed, but not all speeders are dangerous drivers. The limited resources available to enforcement agencies mean that whilst there are a lot of offenders, it makes more sense to target those who speed dangerously or in dangerous locations.

Mazzy, BTW great thread and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting your first solo.

Regards

Obs cop

A search revealed the 'Listening to RT' thread which I have revived considering the questions on this thread at the mo'. :)

You can get a telescopic antenna for your scanner from Maplins. Connectors on scanners tend to be BNC, although a few newer radios use SMA.

BNC connectors on a radio are cylindrical with two diametrically opposed pegs stuck out about 1mm from the top.

SMA connectors are threaded and about 5mm in diameter.

The manual will tell you which your scanner accepts.

Good luck with the flying, I wish I could get down to a weight where I wouldnt move the CofG outside limits hehehe then I would give it a go.

Cheers n beers
Ian

ObsCop - thank you sir, I agree with whats been said, and that anaolgy is pretty spot on. The thing is, today I am taking my girlfriend to the flying school - she is gonna sit by the apron on the picnic tables whilst I do circuits. She has never been in that environment before and she is looking forward to it. I was gonna give her my little scanner, just so she could listen in to me in the circuit - but now I am 50/50. If I were to do it then, perhaps I would give her earphones, as to not make it too obvious. I cant see the harm personally, as there is one in the lounge anyway that everyone can hear :confused: (she wont even know what the hell it all means nayway! (sorry luv)) :E

Ian
How heavy are you mate? If you are too heavy for the PA38 Tomahawk, then why not try the PA28 Warrior or similar? It's a 4 seater which in guessing you are not as heavy as 3 average people put together :ok:

Solo is creeping up on me now, I am just waiting for the words "ok your turn" as he crawls out the door. Honestly, I cant wait now, my heart will be pounding, and looking back at the start of my thread, I never thought I could get this far!

BRL: I'll check that one out mate, thanks :ok:

Regards all

Lee

With the greatest of respect, the Office of Communications is "interpreting" the Act, they are not the final arbiter, the courts are.

Go ahead and give your girlfriend your scanner or transciever to listen in on. There should be no problem. You make "broadcast" calls don't you? By definition they may be listened to by people "intended" to receive them. I would have thought that included your girlfriend, volunteer marshalls at a fly in, skydivers and all sorts of people.

The real test is intent to use the information for an unlawful purpose.

Telling your girlfriend to remove bra and knickers over the radio is not a hanging offence, unless she is under eighteen or whatever.

mazzy,

The common sense solution may well be just to ask ATC if they mind your girlfriend listening in whilst you are flying.

Most general aviation and some airport facilities don't mind, but if you have their permission, you are perfectly legal if you listen in.

Avoids all of this can I, can't I stuff and puts your mind at rest.

Just a thought,

Obs cop

I would ask cath or malcom in the office they will know for sure, if you were to go into the terminal over by were the windows that look out on the apron, every spotter there will have one going full plelt with lots of they boys in blue about all the time.

Nick.

Hour 16
 

I have bee really unlucky with the weather ever since starting my circuit training. Every single session that I have done, it has been bloody windy, close or past aircraft limits. My instructor told me I would have already gone solo had it not been for this fact, so I get a little cheesed off when I wake up for the lesson and its howling outside. Anyway, that’s UK aviation for you so I either get used to it or stress myself out!

On rw 09 today we had a 20kt headwind throughout most of the session. Takeoff was interesting as we got airspeed for free and we climbed higher, quicker so we had to crab quite a bit to get a decent crosswind distance, so that we were not too close to the runway on downwind. The flying was going well, and on the second circuit we performed 2 orbits to give spacing to one of the easyjets (the sky in Liverpool especially on a weekend is dotted with orange!) So there we are jollying away, knowing that if the weather was good I may have had the opportunity to go solo, but still, was loving every minute.

Then, we thought we could do a couple of gliding descents to land. As we turned to final, instructor said to me:

“Tell me when you think we could cut the engine and successfully make the runway”.

Bearing in mind the wind was bloody strong, I was guessing at pretty much over the extended threshold – the metal structures that hold the approach lights (anyone know the technical word I am looking for?). So at 1000 feet, we cut the engine, carb heat on and kept the nose up for 70kt. Then commenced the glide. As we got further along, I was thinking, “We aint gonna make this”. All of a sudden…..WALLOP! We were dropping like a whore’s knickers (sorry) – loads of power back on to keep us from dying and ensure that we make the runway – very very interesting indeed.

On the next base:

Instructor: “Wanna do another one?”
Me: “Too right”.

This time, it was quite scary. We were practically over the numbers when we cut the engine at 1000ft. the runway looked TINY! Miles away! I was expecting a very exciting landing as we were SO high, never seen the runway from this perspective before (listen to me like a kid with a new toy). So again, trim for 70kts and set the glide up. This time, we were making it no problem and had plenty of runway to play with – landed fine. I had concerns with what I had learned: What would it be like if you REALLY had lost your engine and you had no runway to play with, or for that matter, no runway at all! Getting the glide angle spot on and picking the best landing point (a nice field) would be essential, and I can imagine pretty scary.

Lots learned today, and still awaiting my solo which I am really looking forward to. I gave my airband scanner to my dad who was back at the house, more than 15 miles away, he could hear me clearly in the circuit which was great.

Safe flying,

Lee :ok:

Hi Lee. Glad someone is getting some flying in! Just to validate you point about judging the glide - that was the thing I really struggle(d) with during PFLs. Once you've learnt what the picture should look like it's not so bad but it takes a lot of experience. Then again, doesn't everything! ;)

Lighting gantry is the word you are looking for.

Nick.

Yeah, yeah, they all say that!

(It's usually true of course.)

Cheers Mate! It will happen when it happens. Look on the good side: you are getting invaluable experience in coping with rotten flying weather!

Just think how it would be if you learned in creampuff weather, went solo, and then copped a pasting!

You are doing it the right way.

Just for the record, did the first navex today. About a 140 nm triangle. Trying to minimise the bits of paper, pencils, maps and erasers that I\'m juggling. Trying to get the right frequencies and make the right calls to radar, local and military controllers and so on. Recompute ETA, track groundspeed, SARtime, fuel and so on.

Oh - and fly the plane as well.

Going to go out and do some circuits tomorrow or Thursday to get used to the Warrior a bit better - of course the new DC headset will make my flying infinitely better.:E

... it's not just UK aviation... wait until you start doing navs!!! Then again, had beautiful wx today. Damn hot though... pretty bumpy towards the end of it.

Sunfish...
Looks like you're a few weeks behind me... did the same thing not too long ago. Doncha just love juggling everything and keeping on something resembling proper altitude and heading...
:uhoh: It gets better after a while!! (then they start giving you diversions... :\ )

Adam

1 Day – 2 logbook entries
 

No, sorry, it’s not my solo but a very interesting and challenging lesson indeed. Because I am waiting for the weather to do my solo, it was agreed that I needed to do something else and get out of the circuit for now, because I have done a hell of a lot and need to do something else. So today, we decided to go to Blackpool.

Got all sorted and started checklists etc then parked into wind to do power checks etc. this is the thing, for the past 2 lessons now I have missed things in the checklist – I am too eager to get going and I miss a page out, or I say we are ready to get clearance when really I should be at 1800 rpm checking the magnetos! I think it is eagerness to fly, and next time I get in the aircraft, I am gonna slow down a little to make sure I don’t miss anything out – don’t wanna look unsafe! The thing is, I seem to recall saying something like this in an earlier entry, where I was missing things off the checklist – I need to work on this or it may just let me down on the check ride!

So on to the flight. We would leave the zone standard VFR via Seaforth, head out towards Maghull, then remain east abeam Woodvale and onto Blackpool. It was decided that we wouldn’t talk to Woodvale on the way there, but to try and contact Warton instead – so we did:

“Warton Tower Golf ####”
nothing………….
“Warton Tower Golf ####”

Ok, still no reply so we went over to Blackpool ATIs, copied the details, then stood by on their approach freq. This is the point where I could feel my legs tingling with adrenalin, because I knew what was coming up. Something which I had only done in a practical exam, which scared the !!!!! out of me. The dreaded position report. Ok so my instructor went through what I needed to say briefly, and I remembered from the RT oral. I hit the PTT button and off I went:

Who we are: G#### is a PA38
Where we are from and where going: routing Blackpool to Liverpool
Any checkpoints: via Ormskirk (or currently overhead)
Our height: at 1600 feet
The pressure setting: QNH 1013
With ATIS: with information November
What we want: requesting flight information service.

Et oila! It all came out smoothly with no glitches like “errr” or “ummm”. I couldn’t believe it – I actually got it right! Approach quickly responded with out FIS. The way I done it was to remember the first 3 parts which are obvious essentials, then a quick glance at the altimeter, quick glance at kneeboard to get QNH (which no matter how much I remember, will always forget once I hit the PTT button) we have their ATIS and we want something! To be honest, it was ten times harder in the exam, because of 2 reasons, firstly, the information I was giving in the exam was false, i.e. made up for the purpose of the exam – I didn’t have any instruments, and I couldn’t visually see where I was, it was more a case of remembering the hard core speech. Secondly, there was more pressure on me in the exam to get it right in order to pass – ok I know you have to get it right in the air which is more important, but I am sure you know where I am coming from.

We then requested a join and set up for the landing – it was more difficult than I originally thought spotting the airport, I will always remember it is roughly south of Blackpool tower (the tourist attraction one!). I set up for the approach and got it all sorted. It was weird landing at another airfield, the runway was much shorter and much narrower – no room for too many mistakes! I ballooned it once – I flared and didn’t hold it for long enough, letting it come down to quick, then as I tried to keep the nose wheel up for a smooth touch down, up she went again! Bas***d I thought to myself, it is so frustrating knowing you have done a crap landing, when the last one the other week was perfect. Anyway, we departed right at the end of the runway and went to the GA apron to pay the £15 landing fee – bit steep I thought but the controller have a bloody tough job looking after 3 (or 6) runways. The airways just seemed constantly packed and aircraft were being told to hold and go around left right and centre. Too much to take in for now, so I had a wind down walking to the C point to pay fees.

Back to do a quick oil and fuel check then back in the cockpit for the full departure checks. We requested taxi and navigated through what seemed a complicated mass of holding points and taxi ways. I had the map of the airport on my lap which helped (it is essential of course) but it was still a mass of confusion. After the longest hold I have experienced so far, we got airborne. This time we were going to talk to Woodvale, as this would be more good practice in talking to different ATCO’s etc.

It all went well again from here, got the position reports sorted no problem and headed back to home base (no not the DIY store). We had a decent tail wind and got back before you could blink an eye lid – just as I would say “Kirkby in five” it quickly became “Kirkby in 3”! I have one question for you guys – I was gonna discuss it with my instructor after the flight but was on a bit of a high and forgot to ask. We asked for a JOIN instead of a REJOIN – what’s the difference?

The landing this time was good – I have had better, but compared to the one at Blackpool, it was good hehe. This lesson was fantastic, I had a great time and learned lots of new things. I think it is worth pointing out that the use of my newly acquired air band receiver has been of great use. I mainly hear people putting in position reports and am getting used to the style and context of RT – a great investment. A valuable lesson I learned today was get a pen without a bloody lid, and keep it either in your hand or extremely close by because it seemed like essay writing, the amount of stuff I had to write down. Kept arse**g around with the lid and this, that and the other.

Now I am just waiting for solo. I am at the point where doing circuits on a windy day is just a costly way of getting not very far, I may even cancel a circuit session if it is solo’able – what do you think?

Sorry for the long post – a lot to write as there was a lot to take in.

Safe flying all, and again, keep up the posts, which I do appreciate.

Lee

Wrong attitude. You don't want to be unsafe, not you don't want to look unsafe.

Here's my story of hurrying through a check list the other day. We survived. Others haven't.

Gawwwwd Gertrude! I hope I never do that! Whenever I do the checks I start at the beginning and if someone interrupts me as has happened) I go back at least two steps just in case.

TOday I'm off to do Navex number two. I'm flying the Warrior a bit rough, especially the landings. I think I've worked out why - its not a C150 and I have to fly a wider and longer circuit because its about 10-15 knots faster in cruise and base is 80 knots, not 75 and final is 70 knots, not 65. I kept wondering on the weekend why I was 100 feet to high all the time on landing - which resulted in some pretty awful landings.

Idiot me was using my favourite C150 aiming points! This is a bad habit even when flying a C150!

GTW: you are quite right, I do apologise. Use of the wrong words I think there :ok:

Sunfish - keep it up mate, practise will see to that :cool:

Mazzy,

It was a join and not a rejoin because you had landed away and in effect where completing a seperate flight if you see what I mean.. :confused:

I remember the 1st time I went to Blackpool on my practice QXC. When we landed the controller gave taxi instruction which I was totally unprepared for! I quickly got my chart out and it seemed really complicated!

The next time (on the QXC) it wasnt too bad, after the 1st time its never as bad, but i sooooo know what you mean!

I was looking at Heathrow's, now thats impressive!

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/p...s/32LL0201.PDF

The words 'say again' would be greatly over used if I flew there! :D

Sounds like your enjoying it, good luck with the weather for your solo!


Spikeee

hehehe... me at Canberra the other day... got lost, had to get clearance to enter the runway to find our way again... who forgot to put a reverse gear on the Warrior????

Yep... that was me a few months back too. After the ol' 152 it felt a bit weird to actually feel a bit of acceleration when you open the throttle!! And the aircraft actually climbs occasionally... :D I was so far behind that aeroplane the first few times I flew it.


Adam

(flying back to Canberra next week... hope I don't get lost again!!)

Kookabat

No problem - Canberra is over here.

Don't fall for that one Maizzy.

Student came up on RT to ATC requesting taxy.

Tower requested present position.

Student to Tower "I'm over here"

I'll post a description of Del's "Brevet" qualification flight at Hendon 1913 when your much awaited solo report is made.

Your QFI will probably say a few well chosen words. Remember them as we want to know what he said.

Canberra the airport I can find... just finding the right runway to take off from again is a bit difficult... :\

hehehe

hey Mazzy 1026

Just started to read ur thread and its amazing!!!
I am currently to flying at EGGP and completed my first solo on August 21st best experiance of my life espically since im just 16.
Ur on a high for ages.
Thanks in giving me an insight into the RT oral exam found that very useful keep on posting hope u go solo soon but the whether has been dreadful. Best of luck maybe ill cu at ravenair one day


ADWJENK

ADWJENK

Hi mate - your welcome, glad you like it. I am next door at LFS (hangar 4) so let me know when your next down there and I will say hi.

Good to see you have gone solo, especially at such a young age! I have still had bad luck with the weather :{

Best regards

Lee :ok:

Hi Mazzy!

I know the feeling with the weahter- Im (hopefully!) due to solo on Saturday weather providing!!!

Fingers

Mazzy,
Just want to say great thread! I'm 2 weeks into my PPL, got just over 7 hours so far, have done 3 circuit details, altho the weather at the moment isn't amazing. Its werid how much of your diary I can relate too!

I'm flying from EGPH so its a really busy place, but its great to fly around 737s and airbuses. My RT at the moment is abit patchy, I keep forgeting what the ATCO has said, but I'm getting better. I'm flying a PA38 too, its a nice little aircraft, but I've not flown anything else yet apart from gliders so don't have much comparison. I've been known to miss part of the checklists too! Although I realise before the instructor says anything lol.

Why can't the UK have better weather!!!! :p

And cheaper fuel!

Hi All,

After nearly a month and a half of enforced abstinance, I called my flying school one morning when the weather looked reasonable and asked - can you do a lesson today - any instructor will do!!! By the afternoon, the beautiful blue sky had clouded over, but I enjoyed an hour of circuit bashing revision with an instructor I hadn't flown with before. I've found I've learned something new from every different person I've flown with, but like to return to my own instructor when possible, because I feel he has the personal responsibility and interest in my training.

Still haven't gone solo - same reason as Mazzy - weather but, having just finished my MBA, I'm now planning to focus my efforts on the flying. Just to keep up the studying, I thought I might get on with the rest of the PPL exams too! Might get more time to call in here occasionally as well.

Be glad to get rid of this unfriendly weather.

HH