Ah yes, the checklist nightmares! I went through this stage myself - it is documented a couple of hundred posts back :D Keep up the good work ;)

THE FLY-IN
Now then - I need to see if it would be possible for people to make the fly-in on a weekday - reason being, is that there is a possibility of a very nice surprise coming to Tatenhill for us, but it has to be on a weekday. It's not a 100% definite, but it's possible.

Please let me know your thoughts - like I say, it will be around the spring time....

Cheers,

Lee :ok:

Paul - don't be saying that! QXC :oh: skills test :oh:

Makes it sounds rather scary! But thanks, it was very god fun the nav. And very good to meet you.

I really need to get cracking with the exams mind, would like met (maybe nav) done before the QXC. And class of 2006....fingers crossed. Just need you lot to pass first!

Cheers.

And the "suprise" - I'm dieing to know :confused: Will try and make it down, school and pilot permitting!

Mazzy, weekday or weekend are all fine for me, nice to see progress all round come on guys and girls keep it up!

Just a very quick post:

Had another flight today. The second official dual navigation exercise (for those who know the area - Newcastle - Barnard Castle - Seaham - Newcastle).

After arriving at the club I had a very long wait. One of the aircraft wouldn't start, one was lacking a nose wheel, and one was being taken elsewhere for a maintainence check! But after an hour or so we got in the 'plane and we were off...

...the the fuel pump! Once we'd filled it up, we really were off though.

Not a lot to say about the flight really, the visibility closed in a little, but was still perdectly safe. My first experience of talking to different ATC (Teesside approach) which was nice. Stayed pretty well on track, found all my points, and got back safely. By the time we at the airfield it was very dark though! Nice to fly over the Newcastle Quayside. We orbited for 5 minutes or so, then got cleared to finals - the runway looked amazing fully lit. And whilst not the best of landings, I got it down fine.

Next lesson is booked for wednesday (21st) - been told to turn up an hour early, plan my route, check the 'plane and go off on my own! :D Should be fun!

Cheers.

Great to hear the progress made by all. Looks like things are coming together nicely.

Earlier, Lister stated:
I recall in the pre-9/11 days when, if you asked nicely, you could sit in the jump seat on scheduled flights. I've been fortunate to sit up front for a couple of trips from Leeds to Heathrow with BMI. The approach to LHR was awesome. Anyway, the point here is that I was very surprised at how much checklists are used in the cabin. Of course, here on PPRuNe those that fly professionally will think nothing of this, but at the time it was interesting to see just how regimented the activities at all stages of the flight were.

Checklists are vital. I've even made notes on mine to add to the standard ones (e.g. HAND ON THROTTLE before ignition). I've also made my own A5 kneeboard pad in Word with the various critical acronyms expanded out for those airbourne checks.

Mazzy - a weekday would be doable for me, just need as much notice as possible so I can book a day off work. It would be interesting to fly mid week, I've heard it gets busy and those RAF chaps are also to be seen buzzing around...

Good progress John :ok:

I will say now then that the fly-in will be a weekday, most likely a Friday I think.........I hope people can make it as it will be a day not to be missed !!!!!



:cool:

FLY-IN
 

Sorry chaps,afraid I've lost the plot.
Are we saying to meet up the end of this month or end Jan 2006 or another month?
A really beautiful day today and hardly a small plane in the air,can't wait to pass and have that licence!
Lister:D

Hehe - Lister, the fly in will be spring some time (presuming I have passed by then) and I that is my main priority at the moment (that, and organising the fly in).

Also, at any time people like, we can gather for a few scoops in a pub somewhere mid-England !

:D

Thanks Lee,
I was getting it mixed up with the Christmas fly-in.
Lister:D

Am afraid that there is no chance I can go anywhere on a weekday so am gonna have to give it a miss :{

:confused: :oh: :hmm: :sad: :ouch:

It feels like ages since I last wrote something up!

On Friday, I am booked in to complete my solo flying, which is the requirement for the PPL. If the weather isn't good enough, I can see us doing an hour of radio navigation, probably starting off with ADF & DME - so fingers crossed :8

Hope you all have a great Christmas and New Year - wish you all the very best, with lots of flying! Bring on the class of 2006.....

It seems like I'm posting a lot on here at the moment - rather suprising how much I'm flying considering it's the middle of winter!

Anyway, today was to be my first solo navigation exercise. I turned up at the club an hour and a bit early. Got the wind, and plotted my route straight away. A simple one - Colt Crag - Rothbury - Newcastle.

I then found out that my usual instructor wasn't here, but asked another (part-time) instructor to send me off. Whilst it shouldn't have, this got me a little nervous. But never mind, he checked all my calculations and I was ready to go. Checked the ATIS - damn, cloud at 1500 feet. Decided to leave it for half an hour, and hoped it went.

Around 10 minutes later another instructor lands, and informs us there's hardly any cloud. So I give it a visual inspection, agree with him, and go to my 'plane! Everything was ok with the checks, I got it started, and called for taxi clearance. And got a prompt reply saying they hadn't received a flight plan - DAMN. The FI mustn’t have told them. After a few non-CAP413 RT calls I'm allowed to go. So two things not gone to plan...surely not a third?

Everything else goes as planned. I'm instructed to follow another of the clubs AC, and another was following me. All three of us to line up, and then go off one at a time. I was second, and it didn't take long until I was cleared for take off.

No problems on take off, expect for one large-ish gust of wind, but it was all kept under control. I got onto my heading, and all seemed fine. Cruising along at 2400 feet. Already had the first turning point in sight, so was feeling a little more relaxed. Re-checked my checks. DAMN - fuel pump! Other than leaving that on, it all seemed ok. Until I was reminded by ATC that I hadn't switched the transponder on....

So I contacted radar, flew over my turning point, did a nice little circle around it, and got onto my new heading. All seemed fine, the right landmarks were in the right places, and I was on track. Once I was overhead my next point, I did another nice little fly-past, and turned onto my new heading, direct to Newcastle.

At one point I lost one of the significant landmarks I was looking for, but that wasn't a big problem, as another popped up nearly straight away. Now was the time to deviate off course, though. I routed straight into Newcastle, from the West. But needed to be the East of the VRP. So a little correction and I'm heading in the right direction. Called for re-join, and was promptly cleared to enter CAS. The three aircraft I departed with, also wanted to land at the same time as me. Never mind, I was second in line, but I could not find number 1. I looked and looked, and eventually got him, when he was on short finals. Shortly after I was cleared onto finals. Was warned about the military helicopter to my right, which was indeed pretty close, but posed no risk.


So I was cleared to land. Decided on two stages of flaps, but the AC was still on the runway, and was taking a long time to vacate. Luckily he eventually did, and I had some time to spare before landing. For some reason, I did not get my approach right, speed was wrong, and when I eventually got the 'plane down, it was a heavy landing. Perfectly safe, but not as smooth as I'd have liked.

And that was it - my first solo navigation exercise completed! A more complex one is planned for Friday, and then it's landaways, so I've been told! Overall I'm ver chuffed, just wish the landing was a bit better! And I will remember to switch the transponder on, and fuel pump off next time! (And to be 100% my flight plan's been filed!) :O

Good flight, and past my 20th hour! :D Good day overall.

Thanks all,

John.

Ah the first solo nav! Well done there, it's a good achievement, and builds you up nicely for the QXC :cool:

jwf - sounds like fun. It great to be able to read up on other's experiences here and 'fly' the route with them.



Did they mean a flight plan, or that you hadn't booked out? I never filed a plan during my training. I did have to book out at Leeds though: Type & Reg, POB, Land away or local, duration, vfr, routing out of the zone, captain's name. It is preferable to do this over the phone rather than the radio - as you found out ;-)

What type do you fly? I'm thinking about the point you made regarding 2 stages of flap and wonder why you chose to do this - I'm used to PA28 where 3 stages are used for landing.

MyData - yeah, I hadn't booked out. Didn't mean my flight plan! And yeah, all had to be done over the radio - like you say, it's much easier doing it by phone before you leave!

And I fly the PA-28 as well. I was initially taught landing with 2 stages of flap. Then used all the posibilities. I guess, because it was my first outing, I was keen just to stick with what I'd been taught originally. In other circumstances 3 stages (or indeed none) would have been used. Hope it's not frowned upon only using two!

Now that's interesting that we have both been taught quite differently. I had eight different instructors and one area they were all in agreement was 3 stages at 500ft on final, and carb heat off*

I was taught to be able to land with any flap configuration and how to adjust approach etc. accordingly. You never know when those flaps might fail.

*Until my very last lessons where this changed and the consensus was that carb heat should be on until needed at, perhaps, a go-around.

Hmm. Not to sure about that one. I've been taught with no flap, 2 stages and 3 stages. And whenever I'm flying dual, he'll always ask me how I'm landing. Sometimes I chose three stages, sometimes two and sometimes none at all.

Whilst I've only flown with two instructors since re-starting training, I seem to remember my initial lessons (mid 2004) were conducted in the same manner - 2 stages.

I don't know what to say really, anybody else with experience on PA28 care to comment? Like I said, I've done a lot of landings with 3 stages, but I was originally taught (and my 1st solo was completed) using 2 stages to land.

:confused:

i was taught on this aircraft to use all 3 stages of flap on landing and by 500 ft at all times unless there was a strong wind and then to use 2 stages and the carb heat was to be off but the carb heat had been on during the downwind checks!

I fear I may become the minority! :{

Never mind though. Will talk to my instructor about it tomorrow. I'm going to use 3 stages by 500 feet now! Anyway I'm off for sleep, so g'night!

Never flown a PA-28 but I know there are various models ie: PA-28 140,160,180....you know, maybe somthing there

I fly a pa28-161 and also use 3 stages.

Using full flap has a number of advantages, it will give you a steeper angle of descent, which imo allows you to control the height better (better view etc) and it will also give you a shorter float. Unless there is a specifc reason to not use 3 stages then I have always used full flap to land. The only down side I can see is that if the engine should fail then you would have a bigger rate of descent then if you had 2 stages.

Flaps
 

I am learning in a PA28-180,and standard landing practice taught is as follows-
Downwind - Carb heat on during downwind checks then off.
Base leg - Reduce power and carb heat on,select two stages flap.
Final - Select three stages flap around 500 feet and carb heat off well before landing.
Lister:D

This is my first post on here, but I've been following the various 'antics' with interest.

We'll, after 57 hours (too many I know), I've just completed my first solo land away (Redhill to Lydd) this morning. A bit of a dull day, and as usual Lydd was very difficult to see, but at least the danger areas weren't active! All in all very enjoyable, I feel dead chuffed!

QXC, now booked for early Jan - weather permitting of course

Keep it coming folks, and happy and safe flying in 2006.

We teach that full flap should always be used in the PA28-140 and PA28-161, and carb heat checked OFF on final.

Do NOT let any idiot show off with a '120 KIAS over the hedge' landing in a PA28-161, that's a sure fire way to collapse the noseleg and is some 57 knots in excess of the correct 63 KIAS approach speed. Whoever 'Andy' is should have his ar$e kicked hard for such stupidity!

I find the easiest mistake is to leave carb heat on for landing,
I've caught myself a couple of times on doing the after-landing check to see I've left it on.
I don't suppose it is the worst thing to happen and know there is another topic about carb heat and this gets a mention.
I think I am getting better as I don't think I've done it recently!

Re high speed approaches etc in a training plane.
I am a mere low hours learner but have several pals with many years commercial,military and private flying.
They don't p*ss about like that!
Lister:D

Seems I've sparked some interest! Apparently the 2 stages is ok. My landings are no worse off for it, but again, 3 stages will be used when or if needed. And I have been trained using this config. as well.

As for the fast, low approach - I think I'm too scared for that! :\

Anyway thanks for the feedback!

Welcome Cricket23, I look forward to reading some write-ups!

I had another lesson today - was planned to be a solo navigation again. The wind was too strong though, so I had a dual lesson doing some instrument flying and using the VOR. Would have liked to get this solo done (so I can move onto landaways!) but can't help the weather! Good to get some instrument work in too.

Next lesson not until next thur. now!! Fingers crossed for good weather.

Merry Christmas everyone, and safe flying!

Beagle : I agree only an idiot would try to land at 120 kts and it is obvious to anybody that has any knowledge of PA 28 's they would not even try it and that was not the intention,
Any instructor worth his salt would not attempt it either and I for one would not allow it to happen.

I was shown the approach and landing "from 120 kts " over the fence by a very knowledgeable and well respected ex jet captain with many thousands of hours as well as instructing.

We landed at 70 kts....

My apolagies if you could not make sense of my posting as it may not of been clear.

I have in my hand a piece of paper...
 

...well, a number of pieces of paper actually.

12:20 on Christmas Eve and a knock on the door. A package from the CAA. What excellent timing!

Fantastic! I now have my brown wallet and its time to go flying again!

Here's to all for a great Christmas :ok:

Well done MyData hope you have a great time utilising you new found freedom.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all the flyers and wannabee flyers here.

I hope I'm back in the UK in time for the February Bash. :ok:

DATA
 

Well done Data!!!!!
One of my pals has just been over and given us a great display in his Pitts,I'm not sure if I eventually want to do that but can't wait to get my licence anyway.
There is going to be a massive fly-out/fly-in from a local farm strip tomorrow,although I think it would be appreciated if I stayed at home for Christmas day.
A really happy Christmas and a fantastic 2006 to all.
Lister:D

Wow - so much going on and I've only been gone 2 days!

Firstly, welcome to Cricket, like I say to every new diary joiner, you are now expected to keep us up to date on your progress ;)

Data - You make me jealous! := I cannot wait for that day to happen to me, you must be over the moon!

With regards to flaps - this is my two shillings worth: I fly a PA38 which has only two stages of flap. I will judge how many stages to use, depending on the wind, and that alone. If there is now wind, then I use full flap (there is always wind). Anything from 15 knots upwards I will use only one stage, as my ground speed will be slow enough. Also, if there is a stonking cross wind, I tend to use only one stage, to give a higher ground speed, should things go wrong.

I think Blinkz mentioned some very important points - If you use no flap, then you have a very shallow approach, your nose is much higher (greater angle of attack) and you need quite a bit of power to 'drag' it through the air. This is a bad approach (in two respects) if you have an engine failure. On the other hand, if you use full, or two stages, then you have a much steeper approach, greater visibility, and your chances of success are much greater should you have an engine failure - flaring is much easier too. Remember the purpose of flaps: to give a steeper descent without increasing speed.

With regards to the carb heat, I was taught to turn it off at 300 feet, should I need to go around.

I had what was possibly my final 'syllabus' style lesson yesterday - I completed VOR, ADF and DME etc, and the lesson couldn't have gone any better - I shall do a full writeup shortly! My next flight will either be a short solo trip to meet the requirements, or more likely, a mock test!

Have a great Christmas everyone - and remember, it is illegal to eat mince pies on Christmas day!

Lee :ok:

Congrats Data! Tis brilliant, you can go flying whenever now - allright for some!

Mazzy, looking forward to your write up! Good luck with the mock test too...and then of course the real test!

Just to wish everyone a very merry Christmas, hope everyone has fun and doesn't eat too much, or get too drunk!

If anyones flying during the festive period have fun, and of course be safe! My fingers are crossed for some good weather!

John.

VOR - ADF - DME
 

Suppose I'd better write this up whilst I am sober :hmm:

I managed to bag an hour last Friday, which consisted of using the ADF (Automatic Direction Finder), NDB (Non Directional Beacon) the VOR (Very High Frequency - Omnidirectional Range) and the DME (Distance Measuring Equipment).

Firstly the the ADF. I read an article a few weeks ago, in which the guy who owns Cirrus, the aircraft company, absolutely slated the use of this instrument. Whilst I agree with his views on technology, and GPS, I can't see how you can criticise the ADF. It is a very useful, and simple to use piece of kit. Before I write further, remember this:

TITS

(Sorry - this one is for the lads!) It does have some meaning, when flying using radio navigation:

T - Tune
I - Identify
TS - Test

Here is a perfect example of how I will use the ADF. I am flying around to the south of the Liverpool zone, lets say I have just taken off from Sleap, and I wish to return to Liverpool using Oulton Park as the VRP to enter the zone. Those of you who have flow at Liverpool, will know that this can be a difficult area to find. So, I TUNE in the ADF to the NDB on the frequency 368.5 - I then enable the Nav radio in order for me to listen to the Morse code to IDENTIFY, which consists of a series of dots and dashes. Once I have established I am tuned into the correct station, I can then begin navigating to it. The needle on the ADF display will now point directly to the station (TEST) (giving SLANT range - 10 points to whoever can tell me what this is - very important for those taking Nav, I should know) :rolleyes:

There are a couple of methods which come next, including holding your pen on over the needle, and transposing it's position over your heading indicator (an often frowned upon method). Make sure you synchronize your heading indicator/DI with the magnetic compass at this point - then, turn the compass card on the ADF to zero. Make a note of the number it points to (not a heading) and add it to the heading you are flying. For example, you are flying roughly north, lets say 010 degrees - having set the ADF to zero, the needle points to 090. Add 090 to 010 to give 100 degrees - this is the heading you fly - making sure you have synchronized the DI !!

I suggested to my instructor:

'Well why don't you just set the ADF card to the actual heading you are flying - then the needle will point to the heading you need'?

Apparently that is a more advanced technique - something which is learned in the CPL course. Anyway, as you get nearer to the station, the needle will start to flicker (if you manage to stay on track) - this means you are getting close, or perhaps over the station, by this time you know where you are (or should!).

VOR

The VOR is a brilliant piece of kit - one which is extremely useful. The use of this instrument is similar to the ADF, in that you tune to it, identify it, then test it, by rotating the OBS (Omnidirectional Bearing Selector - or the rotating compass card) through 360 degrees, checking that you see the needle deflect either side, and that you get a TO and FROM flag. You need to know if you are flying TO or FROM - if you are flying TO a station, then you rotate the OBS until you see the TO flag, then you keep rotating it until the needle is aligned, which means that the number at the top of the needle, is the heading you need to fly to take you directly to the station - you are flying the reciprocal of the radial. If you fly the RADIAL - then you are tracking away FROM the station, and to do this, you do exactly as above, except you have a FROM flag, indicating you are flying away from the station.

If you tune into two VOR stations, and obtain your heading from the station (QDR) then you can plot your position on the chart, with surprising accuracy. My first attempt at this was freehand, which was a big mess, not very accurate at all. The second time, I used my protractor, and discovered that we were above a grass strip, and I was made up having looked out the window to see that we had just flown over a grass strip!!

It was a very successful and enjoyable lesson, one which I will need to remember and practice for the GST.

Hope you all had a great Christmas, and look forward to seeing some of you at the fly-in.

Regards,

Lee :ok:

IME this only works if you have an instructor in the plane to keep the aircraft straight and level ... otherwise taking both hands off the controls and looking inside for long enough to do this can get a bit hairy.

You can keep the a/c straight by using the rudder, however the issue of looking inside for too long is the main problem I find. I try to look up and scan often, but you have to get your fix done vageuly quickly or you just make it inaccurate!

roll on IRS :D

"I was shown the approach and landing "from 120 kts " over the fence by a very knowledgeable and well respected ex jet captain with many thousands of hours as well as instructing"

Even worse - an utter show off who should know better. I too have nearly 10 000 hours and around 4000 instructional, on things from Chipmunk to Vulcan to Phantom to VC10, but now I instruct on the PA28 as my main flying activity I teach people to fly it the way it is safe to fly it.

Whoever 'Andy' is, he deserves nothing but contempt for such a stupid demonstration of how NOT to fly an aeroplane - and a sound kick up the backside!

ADF and the RBI. My tip for the rotatable compass card design is to use 360 at the top when tracking, so that drift can more easily be applied, but to set DI to compass, then rotate RBI to match DI when position fixing. No ADF will ever give you range, slant or otherwise. For that you need DME!

A bit silly to squeeze ADF, VOR, DME and GPS all into the one lesson, in my view. You really need a good ground brief, then a lesson devoted to each, including how to use them when augmenting traditional visual navigation techniques.

BEagle, well said. :ok: Too many instructors don't seem to realise the effect this sort of thing may have on students. This is another aspect of what I've just posted on the instructional techniques thread (can't remember what it's called). Instructors are teaching people, not teaching flying. To explain, they are teaching individuals to fly, rather than demonstrating flying techniques, with little regard for the person sat next to them. At least, they should be!

Beagle - quite right, it is the DME that gives slant range, nothing else. Quite a lot to think about whilst writing my last post :ok:

We didn't do GPS but I know where you are coming from with regards to amount of time spent on each instrument. I was lucky enough to be able to log 2.5 hours of VOR and DME when I went to Malta - I flew to Sicily with my cousin, who is the CFI at Luqa, Malta. We used the VOR to track there and back. I have actually had a few ground school sessions on this, including in Malta, so the theory was well covered.

With regards to trying to draw lines whilst fly - I admit, it is a nightmare to do if there is nobody to fly the aircraft for you - luckily, my instructor did, and I will ask the examiner in the test if he would be so kind as to fly it for me also, asking him to keep a good lookout of course. I agree with what's said though, the lookout is the most important.

It's difficult indeed to draw lines whilst flying - which is why our PA28 checklists have a 1:500 000 scale on the back and a nice blank laminated area to scribble upon!

Use a topless pen - preferably a chinagraph - to draw the 'radial' line, then look out. Then check the distance and write it down, look out again. Then plot distance along the radial on the map. If in IMC, amend 'look out' to read 'check instruments'.

Fixing position from an ad hoc VOR or VOR/DME in IMC is quite difficult if you need to draw lines on charts. Far, far better to have a pre-drawn chart with range and bearing rings from the most convenient VOR/DME beacon.

When I was in the RAF, I produced 'kneepad' sized maps for our University Air Squadron Summer Camps at RAF St Mawgan which had a nice clear Lands End VOR/DME overlay, so it was dead easy to check position above OVC cloud - read off digital range and bearing from the nav kit and check your kneepad map!

I fear that too many FIs think that the use of ADF etc is a prelude to the hours spent boring around (in both senses) whilst practising NDB holds. Whereas really it is a simple (but expensive to install!) piece of kit which can give you a useful back up to visual navigation.

But GPS is indeed the way ahead - if used correctly!