You smoke as much as you like. My instructor of many moons ago used to light up as soon as we got strapped in. He was flying in the RAF from 1937 and a survivor - so if it was good enough for him.......

But hey, if you want to publish your bottle to throttle times on a public forum.............

Please.....

C'mon lads.

B S is hardly an alcoholic making our skies dangerous. He innocently said he might have a glass of wine at midday if he is flying back across the channel at 5pm. I really don't think he's going to be any less concentrated on the task in hand than a very over worked and tired 737 pilot who's flown the same route 17 times in the last 2 weeks...........

Let's not make a mountain.......

Edited to say:

In fact, B S didnt even say he had even had that glass of vino, just that the current rules mean that "one" could if "one" wanted.

Very defensive Monocock.............glad you sober up on the beach:ok: :{

Not really Sharpshot.

I think that Monocock is just being equally realistic about the risks faced. Flying is statistically dangerous, just mention it to your life insurance provider, assuming that you are a pilot.

The point I was trying to make is that it is now OK to have that glass of wine, but the 14 pint session 8 hours before flying isn't. In my book that's an improvement in the law.

Health and safety is now an intricate part of all of our lives. Much of it is utter bollox. I'm struggling to finish a £25m school because a new H&S rule has dictated that bricklayers must wear eye protection and gloves. These chaps take pride in their work and are refusing to wear the protective equipment. The upshot is that they cannot work on the site. How long before we must wear hard hats, steel toe cap boots and eye protection, along with our hi-viz, just to walk to our aircraft?

You seem a forthright sort of bloke, although you wasted any argument by questioning the duration of my flying career. I love flying and fly a lot, every weekend that's its VFR and many evenings. I'm passionate about it and enjoy improving the perfection of doing it. Thanks to a good bunch of friends I also get to fly many different aircraft, apart from my own. Despite telling me to come bak in 30 years time, you tell us nothing of your flying experience, again assuming you are a pilot.

I suspect that my "glass of wine" post was what most people think (and I know that several have had that drink) and you spurted off some HSE type diatribe. You miss read me and I also suspect that my post reflected the common held understanding.

You are a photographer. You strive to get the shot that no one else has. I suspect that you may often be in a location that the general public may not be allowed to be in. Have you ever considered the danger that your positioning may pose to flight crew or yourself? Of course you have and the risk was zero.

If I ever do have that glass of wine, I will undertake a similar personal risk assesment and I'm sure the wine will complement my food perfectly.




In signing off, aren't statistics wonderful? Genghis' post said that 1/3 of all pilots killed had and a 15mg alcohol content in their blood. So twice as many pilots drove into the deck whilst completely alcohol free. Do we assume from these statistics that we are twice as likely to be killed if flying with no alcohol at all in our blood?

Of course not, but the presumption requires a modicom of common sense :eek:

Genghis , it doesn't have to be a complex simulator. Try firing up a flight sim on the home PC, fly some circuits then have a few of your favourite tipples and fly some more. Amazing how quickly the precision hand/eye co-ordination deteriorates with the application of alcohol....

I always wondered why I could never get that Corsair back on the deck of the carrier on Combat Flight Sim 2 :ouch:

Regarding the lunchtime single glass of wine and flying 5 hours later I'm with barshaker and Monocock . On the basis that one's body will have processed the single glass of wine out of one's bloodstream by takeoff time what is the problem. Better to have rules based on scientific fact than rules based on very broad generalisations (8/10 hours bottle to throttle) which have been abused heavily in the past.

Genghis' post tallies with the self-imposed rules of thumb that I use:

1 unit = 1/2 pint beer = small pub glass of wine (125ml) = pub measure of spirits (25ml).

Add a fudge factor on to the above for strong beers or home measures of spirits (oooh my hand slipped!) Also watch those large pub glasses of wine and the new extra-generous spirit measures that some pubs have.

Assume it's adsorbed instantly then you process alcohol at 1 unit per hour, the driving limit is 4 units (and I've just learned the flying limit is 2 units).

Don't fly or drive until at least 8 hours from your last drink unless you consumed no more than the limit in the first place when a bit of discretion is allowed. Leave proportionally more time if you've drunk more than 8 units.

And remember that if you're drinking wife beater (Stella Artois), 8 units comes very quickly.

You could stick to coke or lemonade but you might crash on landing while trying to cross your legs to stop yourself pissing in the cockpit.

Low N Slow, not a fair test - I can't fly a PC flight simulator for toffee anyway.

But, on a serious point, the reports I read seem to show that by the time your hand-to-eye co-ordination has started to degrade, your ability to follow procedures (gear down? Tank changed? Wind component checked?) has gone completely for a Burton. So, yes a PC flight sim might be used (by somebody who can fly it in the first place), but...

- you want to simulate, say, a moderately complex cross-country flight of an hour or so
- You need to do a good job of simulating the overall flight workload (aircraft management, RT, checks, etc.)

And I'm not sure how well sat at your home PC will do that?

G

Barshaker - excellent. I don't disagree with most of what you say. However, from a personal perspective, I will not drink for a considerable period prior to flight.

Yes I do have a licence and as you put it, I get very close to planes. Photography is but a hobby.
My father flew from 1940-2001; I can't emulate his achievements, however, I have at least been able to exercise the privilege of the licence for quite a few years now.

I have been to various social gatherings until 02:00 and been airborne by 07:00 with the partygoers - that's life, just doesn't mean I want to be the one that gets caught out.

Zero tolerance = Nil confusion

Genghis a fair point, a lot of people who can land the real thing make a complete lash of it on a sim.

Theoretically with something like FS 2004 you can do a cross-country with realistic scenery and operating procedures.

Now that the old grid I laughingly called a PC has bitten the dust I might get one that can do all of the above. I'll do a test with carefully measured quantities and let you know what happens :ok:

I agree with Genghis - the procedural side of things will probably go first. Overhead joins and PFLs would start to get tricky, and I'd also be interested to know how a bit of booze affects your ability to tolerate a bit of G. Can you still fly a 60 degree banked turn after a pint? after two?

Alcohol is all very well, but there is another substance which can cause a great deal of trouble for pilots when drunk to excess before flying.

I think that we are overdue for some official studies and HSE guidelines on its use as well, since it can to my certain knowledge lead to extreme pilot discomfort and to increasing pressure (literally so in fact) to make rushed decisions, particularly with regard to landing.

I am referring of course to that enemy of the long-distance pilot: coffee.

Forget the homebased PC flight sim. It's okay for some things like concentration.

It does not simulate turbulence and the instuments shaking and your eyesight trying to focus all the more:uhoh: :uhoh:

Fly Stim,

The IAM did a study on the effects of coffee on flying some years ago as I recall. I got caught up in it at the time as the crew room coffee machines became de-caff only (and worst of all, TEA was banned!).

The principal finding was that caffeine withdrawal set in about an hour or so into the sortie for heavy coffee drinkers, later or not at all for modest or light consumers. The effects were similar to tiredness, in that there was a loss of concentration and increased tendency to make more minor mistakes.

IIRC, these effects went away when the task got stressful, presumably as adrenaline cuts in and wakes you back up.

I found that trying to land a Shadow at Clench Common with my legs crossed woke me up quite effectively too! :ooh:

Ever since then I have avoided the evil brew until after flying.

Having watched my mate trying to pee out of the DV window of a Piper Lance at night because he was busting and there were no receptacles in the aeroplane, I have always considered tea and coffee to be far worse than an odd beer. It was the funniest flying experience I have ever had - 8,000 feet over Teeside, Bob trying to reach the window with said tackle and failing desperately, me too convulsed with laughter to fly the aeroplane - thank god for autopilots, we whizzed back to a northern aerodrome, landed, stopped on the runway and he steamed for ages !

After flying in France where the instructor suggested we have a Pastis before we went flying and after being offered wine with my lunch by an Air France hostie - I was Captain at the time, I figure that there is some leeway in this matter !

I declined the wine and stached it for my hotel room after just before you light up !

Unless its the sims at Cranebank, I agree that they are a total waste of time for any real test. I do think that pc sims help out in learning procedures though.

I've lapped Brands in 49s in the wet but can't get under a minute in a sim, in the dry :\

Do you really expect your life insurance company to pay out if they find out you're over the limit?

Realistically, the law is what counts above all else. If you get caught out, you will lose your licence for good. I fly for a living so I have far more to lose than many of you guys, but I feel a professional approach is the undoubtedly the way forward. I get the impression, fortunately, that I'm largely preaching to the converted.

I would suggest though, that the chap who had a wine at lunchtime before flying back at 5pm changes his attitude radically before

a) he causes an accident
b) he kills himself
c) more importantly, kills someone else.

Yes, it is that serious. (This is also the World's Favourite Attitude!)

Human Factor

You just don't get this thread do you?

If someone did have that glass of wine, how is he more likely to cause aviation carnage 4-5 hours later?

You say its that serious so, please, give us the professional approach.

C'mon Barshaker, don't be so entrenched. Why risk it.

Bet that was only the Indy Circuit in 49 secs:sad: