Thoughts on Microlights!!
 

Well I'll try this here, you see i'm thinking of taking up microfright flying, already hold a SEP licence but find the cost a bit high at nearly £100/hr. I was thinking that owning a flex wing costing about £4k would be affordable to myself with the aded flexibilty of owning my own machine. I see the basic homebuilts can be had for a similar price so that could be an option. I will try and visit one of the schools around to arrange a flight to see if I like it!! Any one here have any thoughts??

I think the answer to your question depends a lot on whether you fly for the love of being in the air or whether you fly because it is a faster way of getting about.

If the answer is the former, I suggest you go out and buy yourself something like a Mainair and blast around. If your answer is the latter, go buy a share in a large group on a complex single for the same amount.

Sorry to sound blunt but the pub apened 45 minutes ago.:p

I'm a fan of both.

I love flying, and I love travelling by air.

By and large, the PA28 that costs me £60/hr in a big syndicate satisfies my love of travelling by air. My £4k flexwing equally satisfies my love of flying, at a cost of around £25/hr all-in. I'd be very loath to give up either.

It is as cheap as they tell you, they are very slow (plan on a 40kn cruise and you won't be far out), they will fly from a pocket handkerchief, you will have to look after it yourself, you can put it on a trailer and take it on holiday, and you can always divert any "microlights aren't real aeroplanes" bar talk by asking the noisiest proponent of that view how many hours they flew last week / month / year in their own aeroplane. It will take you a couple of years before you can tackle the sort of weather conditions that you can in the SEP, particularly crosswinds and turbulence.

You won't find anything cheaper or easier to run than a flexwing, nor anything as easy to trailer and take on holiday with you. You will as an SEP licensed pilot take probably twice as much training as you expect, and probably more than some ab-initio students to get checked out - just live with that, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

As to types, I'd personally go for a Raven, Flash 1, Pegasus XL or Pegasus Q, preferably with a Rotax 503 (447 is fine except a little underpowered for pax carrying in the Raven, 462 works okay but is a little more maintenance intensive, Fuji Robin engined aircraft are dirt cheap, but parts are hard to come by). All of those will give you a decent 2-seater for under £4k, possibly under £3k if you get a bargain.

And try and get a deal that includes a trailer, intercom and helmets - otherwise you'll end up spending another £½-1k.

Oh yes, and join the BMAA - that's the source of all wisdom, and their magazine contains the best classified adds.

G

Sticks kneck out ....... SEP?
cheers
dd

Rin, din,din,din,din.......................... Pull !

Blam, Blam

******, missed :E

I too fly in a SEP group as well as owning my own microlight.

Ownership does have the huge advantage of allowing you to use the aircraft whenever you like, and go away for as long as you like, so a £4k microlight would certainly let you take to the air whenever you felt like it, rather than having to work around other group members.

Some microlights do let you travel too; my Easter weekend involved flying from London down to Avranches (10 miles east of Le Mont Saint Michel) on Friday, back to London on Saturday with a lunch stop at L'Escale at L2K, up to Cromer on the north Norfolk coast and back on Sunday, then down to the delightful little private field at Verchocq (about 7 miles SE of BNE) for lunch today.

Theoretically I could have done it 40% faster in the group SR20, but in reality I couldn't really have expected to monopolise a shared aircraft for the whole of Easter.

SEP = Single Engine Piston (what we used to call "Group A").

No stupid questions, just occasionally some stupid answers!

G

As opposed to MEP and SET...you see the logic? ;)

Just in case you missed it, Fly Stimulator's microlight, whilst a very nice flying machine - did not cost £4k !

These 100kn+ microlight "hot ships" are becoming very popular, and they are still flown on a microlight licence, at typical (~£25/hr) microlight operating costs. But they do retail at rather closer to light aircraft prices.

G

Genghis,

Sadly true; the price did start with a '4' though!

I had two points mixed in together really:

1 - Outright ownership (of any type of course) allows one to be totally selfish with the use of the machine

2 - Some microlights can be used for going reasonably far afield

Most in my experience, it's just that some take longer to get there than others, and one or two tend to need a calendar rather than a stopwatch.

G

Indeed. I saw Brian Milton at Le Touquet yesterday with his flexwing, probably on his way to or from the far end of the earth!

I too have considered adding a PPL(D) to a PPL(A) for a while now. I've read that the PPL(D) course is 25 hours. What is the dispensation regarding hours and ground school when you already fly SEP and have 400 hours and how do you differentiate in your logbook regarding your SEP hours and microlight hours or, as I presume, do you keep separate books.

FBNick

It's only differences training now, the requirement for GFT that used to be there went away a year or so ago.

With your experience I'd expect 1-2 hours for a 3-axis microlight conversion (probably a little more if it's something more slow and draggy like a TST), and 8-12 hours for a flexwing conversion.

Personally I just amended a couple of columns (multi-engine ones in my case) that I wasn't using in my existing logbook. I think that some people keep separate logbooks, but that seems a bit fiddly to me.

And you need to maintain both currency requirements - 12 hours in the second of 2 years for SEP, 5 hours in 13 months for microlight.

G

Like youself I am a PPL A flyer and decided to buy a cheap weight shift microlight recently to help reduce the finacial burden or so I thought. It was quite a suprise to me what a significant difference it was learning to fly this kind of craft. It is enjoyable but so different.
Its left me with a bit of a dilema as I still want to fly the fixed wing aircraft and continue with the weightshift. So at present Iam paying out for both. I am sure it was a good plan when I thought it through.

Good luck with your plans

:ugh:

Flexwings are fun, but somewhat limited by the conditions in which you can fly them. We are operating Apollo Jetstars, a Hungarian built machine with Rotax 582's.

Our operating base is in the middle of a major city and about two miles to the side of an international airport. We are therefore limited to a maximum flying height of 500 feet within a closed circuit. Cross country flying is forbidden, as is carrying female passengers :(

Personally, I'm waiting patiently until the day we are allowed to operate fixed wing aircraft, but until then, i will enjoy the 3-4 hours of free flying that i get to do most weekends.

Mutt.

Mutt, why is carrying female passengers forbidden ? Which country are you in ?

I am also intrigued Mutt. There isn't much room for hanky panky in a flexwing :ooh:

We started a club for microlight pilots in Essex and now have nearly 40 members. Approx 30% are pilots that have migrated from GA, the rest have only ever flown microlights. Some are like Flight Stim and Genghis, who stay current on both. The cost is a big issue and if you fly for fun, you'll get over 4 times the hours in, for the same cost as renting a PA28.

The limiting factor is mostly wind strength. A 20kt headwind does make for a long trip. Crosswind limits are not that dissimilar to many light GA types.

One comment that I often hear is that GA pilots consider they are safer after doing the conversion, as microlight training focusses very heavily on engine out practices. You constantly ask yourself "where will I go if it stops now?" Whilst GA training does have this element, many GA pilots fly as though the engine will never stop. This training goes back to the early days when they were unrelaible. Modern microlights are very reliable, to the extent that I have heard the restriction on overflying built up areas is likely to change to the GA rule, allowing this if able to glide clear.

Another reason many people fly microlights is the comradery (sp?) There are fly-ins almost every weekend through the summer and many clubs/groups arrange impromtu trips, just for the sake of it. GA and heli's tend to go somewhere alone where as microlight pilots often fly in groups.

Generalisations never work for long and you will only find out if its for you by trying it. The lucky pilots are those like Blind Lemon, Fly Stim and Genghis, that do both.

Anyway, here's where we went at the weekend.


http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_37...wERfABjLaNJlOz

So Blind Melon are you saying you made a bad choice? I'm like you as i'd like to keep my PPL(A) current but the cost of converting would be around £800+ which is a lot of fixed wing flying! Maybe I should look at VP1's, Turbulents or similar. Though one 3-axis microlight that intrests me is the Minimax, any one got much to say on them?
Flying for me is for the fun and freedom it gives thats why I don't like hiring, it constrains me too much.
In the meantime I'll dream like I have for the past 15 years!

Jeddah Saudi Arabia.... :):)



Mutt.

An alternative to a weight shifter would be something like a CFM Shadow.....?

I did my first ever fixed wing flying in a Shadow and it was a great little aeroplane....climbed at a good 800ft/min one up and cruised at about 70-80kts. Its a pusher (rotax rear mounted) with a nose wheel lower than the mains, so you need full back stick from the very start of the t/o roll to get her going. Great fun - although more expensive to buy than a flexy like a Blade. Abt £12K for a decent one.


http://www.futurshox.net/viewer.php3?id=857

If I came back to the UK I would certainly consider the Microlight option for economy. Flying out of a 350m farm strip in Herts was great!!!!!!!!

You might find the Shadow a bit short in range at the moment!!

Hey Genghis

Isn't it about time I chip in with my usual 'don't mess about, go find yourself a cheap PFA single seater for the price of a good meal and don't bother with those strimmer engined, ridge tents of the air' speech.... !

:D :D :D

Kingy

What about this, Ghengis??
 

Now here's one for you - the 5hrs in 13 months required for NPPL(M) currency is dandy if you are flying from an airfield with resident instructor, but how's about if you have your own machine, self maintained, and fly from your own private strip - who validates your license then???

I'd got that already telepathically Kingy, you didn't even need to say it. You really do need to come flying with me sometime.


Algirdas, it's 5 hours in 13 months currency, then just before each 13th month is up you trot down to a local club with your logbook, find an R-examiner, and ask them to stamp your logbook. If you aren't a member of the club some charge a few quid, but I think that most people belong to a local club, PFA strut or what-have-you for the social element, even if they do fly from their own strip.

I fly a microlight from a non-school airfield with no CFI. I fly a light aircraft from a (different) non-school airfield with no CFI. That's what I do for both licences (albeit that for the light aircraft they also get £100 out of me every other year for the duty instructional flight as well).

G

There is another option.

It's cheaper, lighter, more portable and (to me anyway) a lot more fun.

FLPA

Foot Launched Powered Aircraft.

Or to the uninitiated a hang-glider with an engine attached to the pilot!
The wing folds up onto the roof of your car and the power unit will fit into a large boot. (car not a wellington)

Cost of a suitable second-hand wing: £500 - £1500

Power unit: Brand new £3000, used, £1000 - £2000

Training: No idea at the moment but check with the BHPA (British Hang-gliding & Paragliding Association).

http://www.bhpa.co.uk/

or try Airways in Derbyshire

http://www.airways-airsports.com/

For more info try here.

http://www.hanggliding.plus.com/powered.htm

There is a huge fan club for them at Redhill;)

Look scary to me.:suspect:

Well those foot launched A/C look a bit too primitive to me, but I imagine fun.
Finals19 always liked the Shadow from when it was first introduced, the Sirrocco also looked good. Other fixed wing A/C that look fun are the Mike Whittaker designs, don't seem to see many though. Problem is most of these would be outside my price range, unless something unplanned happens!
Maybe going 3-axis would be more sensible, I don't knoww....:confused:

I confess, in a longish and varied flying career, I'm very happy that there has consistently always been wheels (or occasionally skids) between me and the ground whenever I hit it. Although I'm open minded on most subjects of what makes a good flying machine, I've become quite fond of wheels (as opposed to feet anyway).

G

Genghis (or anyone) What do you know of Raven X's, are they a good a/c to start with and to progress with for the following years? They appear to fall in my price range.

Have you thought about Motorgliders? If you have any gliding experience, the conversion is simple and you have the option of turning the engine to 'Silence' for some real flying. Probably can't quite get into the right price range for outright ownership but a single seat Fournier starts at about £8k. Costs are as for a PFA Homebuilt with a VW. My Ogar syndicate, 6 people, costs £35/Month and £18/Hr.wet. The £18 would apply no matter how many in the group.

Mike W

Raven-X
 

I've had one for a few years, and am very happy with it.

It's a basic but useable trike, the wing is excellent in more turbulent conditions, and it will trim to a decent speed.

The standard Raven-X comes with a 447, which is fine solo but a little underpowered 2-up for cruising. (That said, I had a happy week trundling around the Hebrides with a backseat pax in mine). Having said that I've just re-engined mine with a twin carb 503 which is in flight testing at the moment but looking very promising; giving me a climb of around 600fpm (up from about 350fpm at MTOW before), using about half of our 400m runway, and a cruise around 55mph (compared to the 45mph I was getting before). Basically I'm quite happy with it. And mine is a 1987 aeroplane with a sail which is still nearly as good as new.

The downsides of the Raven are that the parts are a bit expensive and slow in coming (but on the other hand, I don't get through many), the wing is a bit of a bu66er to shift on your own at 56kg, and if you've learned in something else you really need a couple of hours with an instructor - it's quite different to the standard flying school Quantums and Blades to handle.

Fuel capacity is a little limited (25 litres, burns about 13/hr with a 447) unless you've got the 50 litre long range fuel tank mod, which in itself is less than user friendly - but it works and you get used to it quickly enough. Also if you are buying second hand, try and get a trailer and intercom / helmets - you often can, and getting those with the aeroplane will save you quite a lot (it did me ;-) ).

But, I'm very happy with my Raven X and not about to sell it.

P

I learnt to fly microlights on a Raven 912 and did my solo work on a Raven X. They are great machines and the wing has the fastest Vne of all UK flexwings (even faster than the Quik). Turbulence and thermal handling is the best there is.

I am sure that it could have been developed into something to rival the Quik, had the thought of a 100mph+ flexwing not been frowned upon in Gatwick, 10 years ago.

You could get a trial flight in one at Medway Microlights, Stoke Airfield, Isle of Grain, Kent. The factory is next to the airfield.

Medway Microlights

Stoke Flying Club