Ultimate High
 

Anyone had any experience with these guys...

http://www.ultimatehigh.co.uk/

Think I'm gonna give it a try - always wanted to fly something like that.

Cheers

No personal experience but I've heard very good reports and my son plans to do one of their spin training sessions this summer.
There was a very good article in Flyer mag last summer/autumn which tells you all about it. This month's Pilot mag has an article about their aeros and combat flying sessions.
Funny thing is the Pilot article mentions all the Ultimate High instructors are top class experienced pilots. Then on the back page of the same issue there's an article about that pathetic little man Steve Moody from easyjet who caused so much trouble for them and including one of the pilots who's mentioned in the article. :rolleyes:

Rustle's done it with Andy C at Kemble, you could try a PM to him

Mike

They're at Goodwood a lot - planning on having a go ASAP :)

No need for a PM...

It was bloody fantastic. Fun and educational ;)

I posted a thread here some time ago (Sept/Oct '03) titled "Spinning"

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=102426

Did you ever get the video of that flight hosted on the web rustle? Would be good for the "Personal Flying Videos" thread!!!

I was reading about that in the latest ish of Pilot. Sounds like Fun!
Was disappointed to hear you shout 'guns guns guns' to indicate a shot. What's wrong with shouting 'DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA' in time honoured fashion?

Hi Mike - no I never extracted the digit(al) and edited the video...

I have the 900MB original MPEG if someone wants to host it :uhoh:

Or I could do the decent thing and make a "rustle's highlights" version - about 128KB :rolleyes: :hmm:

Friend of mine who is an extremely experienced aerobatic pilot flies for them on a part-time basis and agrees the flying is lots of fun. The pilots they use are professional and experienced; I would have no qualms about sending my mother-in-law up with them.....maybe that's not a good indicator!

Did the basic upset and spin package last summer at Kemble with them - fantastic fun. Great people and stunning aircraft.

I note btw that their also selling 1/6 shares in their Extras if you're keen!

:p

Thanks all.

Definitely gonna give it a go - the conversion course is tempting too...

ChiSau - so how much is a 1/6 share in an Extra, do you know?

Thanks for the kind words from you fellow flyers. I am the chief pilot at Ultimate High and we pride ourselves at providing the best instruction available anywhere.

All the staff are ex-military fast jet pilots with huge amounts of experience and you will find that each flight is taloired to the individual customer - we want everyone to leave with a permanent grin!

Any more questions, please go to the website www.ultimatehigh.co.uk, or give us a call.

Look forward to flying with you soon

Andy Cubin

Anybody who is interested in more details on the Extra share then please give me a shout or PM me.

Owners of a share have access to both Ultimate High Extra 300s, reduced monthly maintenance payments, and all of our advanced flying training courses at cost price.

As Andy has already mentioned, thanks again for your kind words!

greeners

:D

Question for Mr Cubin
 

Total and utter thread hijack I know, but...

I'd be interested to know what Andy C (and any other Ultimate High instructors) think about the removal of spin training from the PPL syllabus.

As a low-houred PPL, I've read the POH, I know what I should do and understand the theory - but I wonder if I'd instinctively do the right thing if that "Oh !!!!!" moment happens. I'll be going to Kemble in the summer to go up diddly up up anyway but I'd like to know what people who spin for a living think.

Frightened of Spinning
 

I am not sure why spinning was dropped from the PPL syllabus. Possible reasons:

You need an aircraft cleared for spinning to do it and not all clubs have such an airframe.

The number of training hours is preciously short (even shorter for an NPPL), so someone possibly decided that the time was better spent on other disciplines.

There is good evidence that more aircraft have been lost in mishandled practice spin recoveries than real mishandlings i.e, it is actually quite difficult to get into an unintentional spin.

That said, ANY aircraft can be made to spin. If you have any desires to go beyond flying straight and level for 30 mins and then turning round and flying home, then a bit of post - PPL spin training is good for the confidence. It is also great fun once you discover that there is no huge mystery to spinning.

For fear of being accused of advertising, UH teach spinning in 2 x 30 min trips. Firstly there is a lesson in theory - delivered in plainspeak! I am thick and when I first learnt spinning, the mechanics were easy enough, but I no real understanding of what was actually going on. I have written the UH spinning brief for simpletons - mainly so I can understand it!

The first sortie looks at stalling characteristics, the incipient spin and then the full blown version. The Extra 300 is the perfect platform to learn this skill as the controls are very crisp and powerful.

After a debrief and another theory session, advanced spinning is taught on the second trip. This includes gross mishandling of the controls and the throttle during the spin to see what happens and to prove the theory learnt in the classroom. We finish off with the inverted spin, by which time everyone in the aircraft is an expert!

If this frightens you, it should not. The spinning exercises are taught using a building block process - we don't move on until the individual skill has been mastered. Thereafter, new factors are introduced one at a time, and you will find your confidence grows much more quickly than you may have imagined.

Hope this rather long winded comment will illicit further remarks from the floor.

Safe flying

Andy Cubin

PPRuNe strongly recommends the value of this type of training. The right place, the right aircraft and with pro's.

Please be careful, we've had a generation of aviators without needing spin training. While it's obvious there are many capable pilots around please be very wary of those offering some unnofficial tuition.

Regards
Rob

Why spinning was dropped from PPL
 

I don't know why Spinning was dropped from the PPL syllabus, but imagine that the risk of accidents in training would likely be much higher than the risk of accidents resulting from a spin post-ppl, unless every training school invested in suitably qualified trainers and appropriate aircraft.

I found the spin training unsatisfactory in my training for the PPL and as a result of this thread will give UH a go.

Stall/spin accidents remain the single largest cause of fatalities and serious injuries in UK and US light aviation.

An article by John Thorpe, GASCo's Chief Executive, in their Winter 2003 edition of GASCo Flight Safety magazine, underlines the point.

There were 277 fatal accidents to UK registered aircraft of 5,700kg and less between 1980 and 1999, killing 483 people. Analysis of the many factors that contributed to all 277 accidents showed that under the heading 'Stretching the Limits', stall/spin was a factor in 37% of them; this was the highest percentage in the group. Similarly, in the 59 fatal microlight accidents that killed 72 people, stall/spin figures in 34%, a figure very similar to the aeroplane group. There is a clear message here.

Current PPL teaching focusses on spin avoidance, and there is undoubtedly some merit in arguing that, if you never get into a spin, then you don't need to practise recovering from it. However, this materially increases the risk of being unable to recover from an inadvertent spin; the spin CAN be disorientating, particularly at first, and being able to recite the recovery action in the comfort of a cosy crewroom is very different from doing it for real when the aeroplane is moving (perhaps violently) in an unfamiliar and unexpected manner.

A reader's letter in Flyer magazine last September illustrated this well. A student was on a GFT profile and mishandled a stall such that he entered a spin. He had seamlessly gone through the spin recovery procedure on the ground immediately before the flight but found that he was unable to do it in the air in his first ever spin. He was extremely grateful that the instructor, who had practiced spin recovery, was able to take over and deal with the situation.

Being confident and practiced in spin recovery does not make pilots bulletproof. But there are many situations where it can massively increase the odds in your favour. And, whisper it but quietly, that includes airline pilots, even on those aeroplanes where it is 'impossible' to exceed a certain angle of bank.

Bulldogs are coming
 

For anyone who is interested and has gagged at the price list, Ultimate High is about to have 2 Bulldogs come on line.

The same disciplines are taught as on the Extra, but at a considerable saving.

Check out www.ultimatehigh.co.uk

Happy flying

Had a go in November at GWC - wicked! They are also doing PPL training now at Kemble in the Bulldog.
i had been in an extra before but this was just as good. very proffessionally run. One of their extras has the facility to record your flight so you can have a vid. as well

I would be curious to know how many of those stall/spin accidents were near the ground, with insufficient space to recover, even if proper and timely actions were applied.

I believe that training on spin avoidance is essential but the best way to do so is to teach spinning.

my one liras worth.

Ciao,
AE
(my first spin was after my PPL, while on my own: I really messed up badly while practicing stalls so I learnt the hard way how to recover).

Here's a question, Andy. I'm a Super Cub pilot (as everybody else on this board has heard ad nauseam!) -- how relevant do you think spin training in the Extra 300 would be to me, given that I never fly anything else bar the SC? These are two very different aircraft.

I'd like to do some spin training. Part of me says, find someone to do it with in the SC. Another says, this isn't really an aircraft for spinning, even though it's cleared for it within certain weight / CG limits.

QDM

AOPA
 

Whats the cost of the AOPA certificate- (i.e. anything on top of your normal a/c use and instructor fees). I'm doing the training with my inistructor then from what i can gather, you just have to go and do a like skills test for aeros - with recoveries etc. Anything else on top of that?

On the spinning subject, my instructor still shows a spin when teaching the PPL syllabus - i got shown it and am very glad i did!

Also, I am learning aeros on type; and was doing recoveries from aeros which have gone wrong (today actually!) - again another eye opener; especially doing a glide loop & nose low barrell roll - loosing over 1000'. What really worries me are people doing aeros without enough experience. At my home airfield someone actually killed themselves by beinig cocky and doing low level aeros to impress his g'friend. I think there needs to be more emphasis on proper training for aeros in the UK: In Autralia, you need an aeros rating - do you think the CAA should introduce something similiar? Any views?

I got my PPL back in 1966. At that time, training was 30 hours, but no instrument time at all. However several hours of spin training was included.

I was even sent out, on my own (C150) to practice spins - the first try I bottled out, the second was a sipral dive, and the third I finally made it - all on my own :ok:

I can't imagine why it is not taught now, especially as the PPL course is almost double the hours.

If the clubs don't have spinnable aircraft its their problem - it shouldn't be a reason for not teaching spinning.

GB.

(edited for spelling)

I'm very much for spin training, be it during the PPL or after, it allows pilots to experience extreme manoeuvre and be confident of recoery should it ever happen. The increased confidence alone is worth it.

However, there is a very compelling argument to keep it out of the PPL sylabus in that most of the loss of control accidents were at low altitude, certainly too low for recovery from a spin. Therefore, as I understand it, it was decided that slow flight and spin avoidance training were worth more in flight safety terms than spin recovery.

It's a moot point, but the statistics would appear to support current practice.

Notwithstanding, and I'm nothing to do with UH (although I do know some of their pilots), but I would commend any pilot to do a spinning (and aerobatic) course, no matter what aircraft he or she flies.

I know several pilots who found stalls in a PA28 and turns at 45 AOB a major issue - including one person who nearly quit the PPL rather than do steep turns - and compulsory spinning would have scared most of them away for good. People on PPL courses are the bread and butter for flying schools, so they're not going to scare the punters if they can help it.

I've only spun once unintentionally. I was on an early solo check ride in gliders where spinning is (was?) still part of the syllabus. The idea was to stall straight ahead then recover. Due to gross mishandling of the controls the glider spun...

I'm convinced the instructor saw what was going to happen and was prepared. I wasn't and, despite having spun several times, completely froze. The instructor recovered and, to my suprise, authorised me for solo flight. Big lesson learned.

I support Greeners view that knowing how won't mean that you can when it happens unexpectedly. I also fully support the view that spin training (rather than avoidance training) is crucial.

AE said - I would be curious to know how many of those stall/spin accidents were near the ground, with insufficient space to recover, even if proper and timely actions were applied.

Me too! I spoke with John Thorpe at GASCO today, who was extremely helpful. Unfortunately he did not have the answer to this question, which would require going back through each of the pertinent accident reports.

QDM x 3
 

QDM x 3,

We do our spin training in the Extra (and now Bulldog) because that's what we've got.

The aerodynamics of a spin are common to all types and are taught as part of the course although we do highlight major differences i.e. high tail configuration etc.

The control inputs and recovery techniques also hold good across the board, the main difference being how far forward the stick should go during the recovery - again tyoe differences will be highlighted.

Our studes leave us as safer, more competent and more careful pilots - nuff said.

Come and do the course, bring your SC with you and we'll jump in afterwards to cover any differences live!

QDMQDMQDM: nearly spun my Cub once - the Old Man used to do a lovely falling leaf in it. Being a fathead (and having read - or misread - that a 'proper' falling leaf is a series of incipient spins in opposite directions) I tried my own interpretaton of the manoeuvre...

Scary? No, man - those pants were always that colour.

The point is, I think, that people will always do stupid things sooner or later and that is when it is very useful to know 1) what might happen and 2) how to get out of it.

In my case, I had at least done a series of demonstrated spins in K-13 gliders and, although it had been dropped from the PPL syllabus by the time I came to power flying, several (much more violent feeling) spins in C150/152s.

The lessons on spin avoidance might not quite have percolated through this one skull - but the recovery actions came straight back.

There is so much b@llocks talked about spinning - it's hard to credit sometimes. It's a shame it's no longer in the PPL syllabus but there's a long explaination for this. When it was taught regularly it usually involved an academic entry at a suitable height with an acedemic recovery after a predetermined and counted number of turns. This of course bore no resemblance to spin prevention in the real world of flying and the reason it was discontinued was that more people were killed practising spinning than were killed unintentional spins.

If spin recovery was practised at the incipient stage with the emphasis on prompt and early recovery, the story would be different. The quick and safe way to recognise a spin is to appreciate that if you have buffet and UNDEMANDED roll at the same time, you are in an incipient spin. The immediate recovery actions should be to centralise the controls. I find it amazing that there are lots of instructors out there who I have spoken to who do not appreciate this fact. The fault lies IMHO with the instructor training system. They try it during their instructor course training and that's it. No recurrent training at all.

Personally, I do a quick ten minutes of very gentle incipient spinning with my students some time just before the end of the course. (Luckily, my club has aircraft cleared for spinning). It's very gentle and no more scary than a wing drop at the stall. I know it's not in the syllabus and I open myself up to criticism for admitting this, but as far as I'm concerned, it's an insurance policy for the student which may save his/her life one day. It makes me feel a bit better once they have their PPL - especially if I like them!

Cubes - if there was an average aircraft for spinning, the two you operate couldn't be further away from the mean. The Extra is designed to spin easily - and does! The Bulldog has odd characteristics thanks to the over - large canopy blanking the rudder. If you don't believe me try spinning a pup and see how different they are. I just hope you have enough ex QFIs amongst the 'friendly ex-RAF Red Arrows and fighter pilots' (quote from Pilot magazine's 'where to fly' supplement) to appreciate this and teach spin avoidance properly :D

Ya Zi

Wise words. Completely agree with the point about spinning too often being reduced into an academic exercise which is then compartmentalised away by the student and all too easily ignored in real world flying situations. This is exactly why any worthwhile ‘upset’ or safety training will specifically focus and include practice (at a safe height) on the places where a pilot will most likely get into a dangerous situation, such as the tightening finals turn/too high/low power scenario.

And also agree wholeheartedly that recurrent training is essential.

On a lighter note, I suggest that all of your students make sure that they get on your good side! :D

An interesting thread…

Lots of arrogance regarding the quality of ‘ex military’ pilots here - Mr Cubes… I have sat along side many a ‘ex military’ (some fast jet, some not) co-pilots in big shiny aeroplanes … I can assure you that it is no guarantee of quality; some are aces and others ‘you wouldn’t want to leave in charge of your grandmother’s wheel chair’! (Sometimes proved by repetitive failure of the company command course!)

There are good and bad from all backgrounds. Some of the finest aerobatic instructors are from civil flying backgrounds; one particular White Waltham based gentleman springs to mind.

How many ex-military fast jet pilots have been past or present British Aerobatic Champions, if the quality is that good this should be an easy goal to achieve???!!(Neil Williams is the only one I can think of??... He flew Canberra’s I think?)

Anyhow I’m sure all Ultimate High pilots are aces… you have to be to fly an Extra… don’t you?? (Actually you don’t it’s a very straight forward tail wheel aeroplane)

As for the Extra as a ‘spin’ trainer? It does spin very well, that’s for sure… so it should that’s its pedigree. It can also demonstrate many different forms of spin in relatively safety, like accelerated (thru unloading and/or out spin aileron), flat (adding full power) erect or inverted.

It can also demonstrate the merits of different types of recovery, like the benefit of power on recovery and in spin aileron (combined use demonstrates very rapid recovery even from the flattest of spins). But how this translates to your average GA aircraft…. Umm I’m not so sure???

TO SPIN OR NOT TO SPIN !!!!!

Excellent posting, I think this will always be a favourite subject to trash around.

In my very limited opion with the stability of those Aero Club Pa28s, and Cessna 172, its really not required.

I started my aerobatic rating the day following my PPL to many years ago, but never really learnt the theory until becoming an aerobatic instructor years later. It became very apparent most aerobatic instructors had a pretty low level of both knowledge and aerobatic teaching ability, cannot get away from the military guys here, who do both very well !

What every Instructor SHOULD be well aware of is how to brief a student on..

WHAT A SPIN IS !
WHY IT HAPPENS !
AND HOW TO RECOVER !

..... a VERY good briefing, and abit of compitent demonstrating and practise can go along away.....

Is very easy for a student to pick up "hey my instructor does not like this.... is it safe"

.......... and maybe just a little 'chip on shoulder' Mr Mad Russian? ;)
It's not the first time you've had a dig at ex-Mil pilots. :confused:

I suppose it depends upon your definition of an 'ace' but, if you take into account the initial selection procedure and subsequent ruthless weeding out process, you have to be an ace to make it to fast jet pilot - and to stay there. I dare say some are better than others, but it's all relative. You've got to be an ace by any reasonable standards to be a fighter pilot in the first place, and some of the best of the best are 'creamed off' to do tours as QFI's. (They used to be called 'creamers' for that reason - don't know if they still are.)

Since you mention Cubes my name: Andy Cubin was a QFI in the RAF, the RAF's solo Jaguar display pilot and then selected for the Red Arrows. Joining the Arrows doesn't automatically mean you stay. One Team Leader who later achieved extremely high rank was removed from the team before the end of a season - not something which appears (or is made too obvious) in official histories of the Team. In his second year Andy was chosen for the synchro pair and, in his third, made leader of the synchro pair. I'm not neutral - Cubes is a friend - but the facts speak for themselves.
BTW, Andy got his command on an Airbus within just a few years of moving to the airlines - of course, the fact the Airbus has a stick not a yoke probably helped. ;) (I can't see how aerobatic skills are relevant to command qualities, but I'm not qualified to disagree - I mention it only because you mentioned ex-Mil pilots failing command courses in the context of a discussion about spinning instruction.)

"How many ex-military fast jet pilots have been past or present British Aerobatic Champions, if the quality is that good this should be an easy goal to achieve???!!"
Nigel Lamb won the Neil Williams Memorial Trophy presented annually to the Unlimited National Champion several times. Was it 7 or 8 times? Does that count? Again he's a friend, but that doesn't change the facts.

Of course there are excellent aerobatic pilots/instructors from civil flying backgrounds; I learned a great deal from several at the Tiger Club. Pete Kynsey and Tim Barnby, now both Virgin Captains, come to mind immediately, and there were others. I've also been fortunate to have some outstanding civvy helicopter FI's.

Perhaps I've just been lucky but, of all the Mil/ex-Mil FI's I've had (f/w and rotary) in the past 30 years, I've always been impressed and never disappointed - and I still regularly fly with FI's simply because I think it's good practice to be checked more often than the legal minimum. There may be exceptions, but I've never yet encountered a FJ/ex-FJ jockey who wasn't also an outstanding light aircraft pilot and instructor. In contrast, I have had some poor civvy FI's.

If I had to choose between two instructors and knew nothing about them except one had been in a FJ pilot and one entirely civvy, I'd always choose the Mil man. If the civvy had been an aerobatics champion the choice would be more difficult, but I'd probably still go for the Mil man because I've always found the Mil instruction style to be superb. It might turn out to be the wrong choice in that particular instance - as you say there are exceptions - but I've found it a safe bet in most.

Tudor Owen

(Not ex-Mil, unless you count University Air Squadron, only a PPL - and definitely not an 'ace'. )



[Edit]
BTW, Cubes is certainly confident in his abilities as a pilot - I would be too if my abilities had been consistently recognised by others over more than two decades as his have - but he's not arrogant.

Flying Lawyer…

Think you’ve rather taken my comments the wrong way… but I guess I did leave myself open to criticism. I was not suggesting that Ex mil fast jet jocks were not good (obviously they have achieved certain standards in their careers), but that there are good and bad standards from all flying backgrounds. I was purely trying to readdress the balance… slightly…


Being an ex mil pilot is not a guaranteed assurance of making sound airmanship decisions (this equates to command qualities in my book… which are really no different in a C150, Extra or a B757… the outcome should be the same… a safe flight), or a guarantee of possessing the handling abilities of an ‘Unlimited’ Aerobatic Champion.

An example might be MJ certainly not ex mil… but a truly exceptional aerobatic pilot all the same. Incidentally I think Nigel Lamb was ex helicopters?? (Military… I agree)

As for having a ‘chip on my shoulder’? Umm?? Well I’m sitting where I want to be, in a ‘quality’ UK airline (flying an aeroplane that still requires to be flown, not one that ‘trims’ itself and has a computer between the side stick and the control surface… something you alluded to I believe, handling ability is probably less important in the Airbus, take it from someone who knows!). In my spare time I have unlimited access to a truly fantastic aerobatic aircraft… I’m still trying to achieve my goal in aerobatics, I know my limitations… hopefully that will keep me safe. I do know that to do well in the discipline of competition or display aerobatics requires skill, dedication and lots and lots of practice. Airmanship is of vital importance during aerobatic flight. Being ex mil would not have altered my course in either my professional or private flying worlds… so I don’t think it’s a ‘chip’ that you see…

I just don’t like arrogance. In flying (particularly display or competition aerobatics) your background doesn’t automatically make you better than the next pilot. I have seen many private pilots (civil thru and thru) exhibiting airmanship judgments and handling skills far out classing their professional counterparts (some of whom… dare we mention it were… ex mil!)

Incidentally for the record, I’m from the civilian flying instructor/air taxi (self improver as it used to be called) background.

If you really want to trawl the depths then maybe we should discuss the backgrounds of the pilots involved in airshow incidents/accidents over the past few years… there is a common factor… I personally don’t consider this appropriate.

Anyhow you are a professional in the art of argument and as I indicated before… I know my limitations…

My ‘chip' comment was a gentle tease, hence the ;) , because I know your views on mil pilots. In the context of this discussion, I disagree. I wouldn't presume to comment upon ex-mil pilots flying an airliner or flying in an airline environment. Although, as you've probably guessed, I disagree with the conclusions you think can be drawn from the backgrounds of pilots involved in airshow incidents/accidents, I entirely agree that's a different discussion and not this thread.

We'll have to agree to disagree about mil pilots. Being 'good' isn't good enough to get you a fast jet seat, or to keep you in it. The "certain standard" is exceptional ability, even compared with others who've got through the 'Wings' stage without being chopped - no mean feat in itself.
It's possible I've just been lucky with my ex-mil FI's, but there haven't been any exceptions, either f/w (RAF) or rotary (AAC).

My comment about getting a command and the Airbus stick was meant as a joke. Curiously, although >90% of my s/e f-w flying over the years has been stick, I've flown the Airbus sim at Toulouse and the BA 747-400 sim at LHR and found the side-stick much more difficult. It's a stick, but doesn't entirely operate like one. It might just have been me, and I did spend a few hours in the 747 sim and only about 45 mins in the Airbus. Both were a challenge for me as a PPL of course!

Tudor

(You're right about Nigel - he's ex helicopters.)

Flyinig Lawyer - i agree with your statement to do with military instructional technique. Top stuff IMO

Ooh you two!
 

Mad Russian - good response and thought- provoking stuff, but outside the scope of the thread. Open another one about the relative qualities of Civ/Mil instructors and I am sure it will be entertaining. I'll certainly chip in and I am sure it'll generate a lot of interest.

Flying Lawyer - stop letting him wind you up!!
Bout time for a trip in the Hunter for you sir - touch base.

AC

I doubt I'll teach Mr Cubin anything, but just in case: Hope you remind your students - Robin pilots at least - that recoveries are 'unconventional' on some types. :ooh: