WWW,

Would you be a 'grey-haired PPL instructor' then, as the mention of GPS seems to have brought you out in a nasty rash!

Maybe your fore-fathers were similarly opposed to the Spinning Jenny!! :O

I was scared to say it myself...but I'm glad to see that it's not just me! :yuk:

Stir, stir, stir...:E

Nah - I have a spanking 6 month old Garmin GPS PilotIII in my flightbag. Amazing piece of kit - much more accurate than the kit in the works motor.

But then I had over 1000 VFR hours logged before I bought it.

Mind you I did get lost on my CPL navex for about 10 minutes - mistook Huntigdon for St Ives as I recall. Happens to everyone.

Cheers

WWW

And go charging through controlled airspace with their noses firmly glued to a tiny GPS screen usually relaying data from a long out of date database

Actually, no, most high-time pilots use GPS and VOR/DME concurrently.

I don't know your occupation but your view is common among PPL instructors. Most of them rarely venture beyond the nearest folds in their chart.

Mind you I did get lost on my CPL navex for about 10 minutes - mistook Huntigdon for St Ives as I recall. Happens to everyone.

Actually, NO, it happens only if you've made a navigation error. (I never got lost on my QXC etc, but I did that in fantastic visibility and often in view of the coast and some massive land features.) The landmarks you mention did not change position. The trick is to navigate in a manner which makes an error (especially a GROSS error like you describe, in terms of distance bad enough to land someone in very serious trouble if they are close to CAS to start with) improbable. Visual navigation does not meet this requirement, because there is a variety of small and large errors which can easily be made.

Visual navigation is all that can be practically taught within a 45-hr PPL, given the condition of flying school planes and lack of equipment. But that is nothing to do with the fact that it is also the easiest way to get lost. As you found yourself.

I will accept someone having a go at GPS if used within the existing PPL training framework; there's really not a good place for it. But after that, everything changes.

Maybe my view is common among PPL instructors. I'm also an IRI and airline pilot as it happens so its a view shared not exclusively in PPL schools.

Everyone gets lost from time to time and anyone who says they haven't is a liar.

I'm not saying basic use of VORDMENDB can't be taught in the 45hr course. I cover it all in two one hour sorties towards the end of the course usually under the umbrella of 'skilltest preparation'.

You've GOT to be able to confidently navigate without recourse to radio aids in my opinion. Handheld GPS can and does fail. It is jammed from time to time by the military. Radio aids do go inop.

Remember a B777 still has an e-type compass and a stopwatch. Boeing wouldn't put them there without a reason.

Cheers

WWW

I disagree that you should NOT use Navaids at all. If its fitted, you should know how to use it. A GPS doesn't nescessarily lead to pilots bashing through CAS, in fact if its used right it will prevent this.

I agree that a student should NOT use a GPS in general cross country training flights, but if fitted they should know how to use them and when its pertinent to use them (ie when they get lost). This should be included in the instrumentation instruction which is required,and should be carried out before solo X/C's in my opinion. Get a Lat and Long of the display and draw your fix on the chart. Same goes for conventional navaids, find the radial, find a DME, draw the fix on the chart. Its pretty easy,most student pilots will have the nescessary brain power to do this.....In fact in the future its going to be essential for Private pilots to know how to use a GPS. Had a look in an OMF Symphony yesterday, lovely 2 seater modern 152 equivalent, its instrumentation consisted of twin Garmin 430's......

Cheers
EA:D

Human nature being what it is, no basic training a/c should have GPS fitted. If you get lost or "temporarily unsure of your position" you should be able to get out of it without having to resort to modern technology. I don't agree that low time students should know every in and out before they go off on their own. The basics yes but there is enough for them to think about already.
I agree wholeheartedly with WWW that stude's should not go near a GPS until they have mastered maps.
IO540 the reason you get instructors jumping up and down about GPS (and I'm nowhere near being grey) is that it does degrade the basic skills, just read GASIL etc. for tales of people calling D&D because their GPS has failed.

Get the basics right and then we'll teach you how to put the cream on top. That's speaking as PPL, CPL instructor and IRI. If you 'aint got the first bit right you're wasting my time and YOUR money. Who would do circuits without doing climbing and descending first???

If you show a student how to use the navaids prior to him completing his solo navexs then you don't ever know if the only thing getting him around was the navaids.

If he is using them he is cheating himself and setting himself up to fail the skilltest.

Even if he does know how to use them I don't like the idea of Bloggs being out in the open air for the first, second or third time with his head down, frown upon face, twiddling with the nav kit.

Its a recipe for spiral dive, stall or collision.

What he should be doing is drawing a circle and then following the Lost Procedure.

WWW

No axe to grind, nobody to insult. Just to say I had several instructors - found it beneficial. I wasn't allowed to solo until I had passed Met' and Air Law. Wasn't allowed to go on my QXC until I had passed my R/T.

I was taught that go/ no go decisions were down to me. I waited seven months to go on my QXC. I religiously booked a triple slot each week and each week I didn't go because of bad wx. I would discuss the likelihood of my flight with my FI and the CFI. I'm glad I did it that way. The only downside was, I flew the route dual in September 02 and finally did it solo in April 03. During that time I had lost familiarity with the route.

I don't need to read between the lines of previous posts to know that I am not a natural born pilot, but I do feel that my school has enabled me to be a safe pilot. I am glad they applied the belt and braces approach with my training.

As for Radio Nav Aids; I didn't get taught to use them fully until after my QXC. Had I struggled I would have used 121.5 and looked for a diversion. I felt I had enough to concentrate on that day as it was.

I got my PPL in May 03 in a Robin HR200. I'm now converting to a Warrior and know that I have a lot to learn still.

That's my input.

Oh yes! I think WWW has made very good points, albeit in a slightly caustic and amusing way.

Hope the Moderator doesn't bin the thread. It makes a change from all things pink popping up all of the time:)

I don't get all this. Are some of you really thinking clearly? What is this pink, semolina, etc rubbish people keep going on about? Anyone would think a normal thread on this forum consisted of little old ladies genteely agreeing with each other all the time. That's utter crap. There are some good discussions, even arguments. But they're usually conducted in an intelligent, logical fashion, and people usually have something to say. Or to put it another way, they argue with what people say; they don't put down the person. That didn't happen here. WWW criticised Phoenix because of what he'd said on another thread, because his experiences seemed unbelievable, and because he reminded WWW of a certain type of student. And some of you think that makes this into a good argument, that it's the way PPRuNe ought to be!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, my thoughts on that would certainly make BRL bin this thread.

WWW

Remember a B777 still has an e-type compass and a stopwatch. Boeing wouldn't put them there without a reason.

They are there because the FAA says so. Is there a failure mode on a 777 where you would lose ALL your navigation instruments (including radios) and still have enough electrically powered stuff left working to be able to fly and land the aircraft? And if so, how likely is it to happen?

SAS

IO540 the reason you get instructors jumping up and down about GPS (and I'm nowhere near being grey) is that it does degrade the basic skills, just read GASIL etc. for tales of people calling D&D because their GPS has failed.

I accept GPS cannot realistically be taught in the 45-hr PPL course. Especially as the average student takes 50-60hrs already, and many schools would not have the money to fit out their planes.

I do read GASIL for what it is worth, been to the CAA safety presentations, etc. These are mostly aimed at 10hr/year pilots flying WW2-equipped aircraft - probably the majority of the fatal accident statistics which is why the CAA and D&D plug away at the same stuff everywhere they go. If your GPS packs up you immediately fall back onto VOR/DME (which you've been using all along, concurrently). If you get a total electrical failure then you can't call 121.50 either, so you've got to carry a handheld radio, otherwise you better hope to either be in VMC or be able to descend into VMC above the MSA. I carry a handheld GPS and a handheld radio - as well as having all the stuff in the plane.

As regards ex-GPS D&D "customers", there will always be people getting lost doing heading/time/map navigation, getting lost wrongly doing VOR/DME, getting lost wrongly using a GPS. The only difference is that the first category is "OK" because they were doing it "the right way". There is no solution to the first one, other than many hours of practice and currency, and of course good visibility. The other 2 are usually silly procedural errors (flying 80 instead of 180 or creating duff user waypoints on a cheap GPS) which are easy to avoid if you use both systems.

None of this is rocket science.

Most instructors will always dislike GPS because of the above reasons, but it is a huge backward step to insist it should not be used afterwards.

IO540, it isn't that I dislike GPS, in fact I think it is a brilliant aid. A real revolution and I for one always have my trusty hand held some where in the a/c.
What I dislike is the over reliance on it. More often than not it has become the primary navigation tool. On more than one occasion I have had people say " I'm off to so and so" when I ask to see there PLOG "Oh it's alright, I've got my GPS."

As an aid it is unbeatable, but it is just that. It does drop out occasionally, usually when you need it most (sod's law).

I don't particularily like the way you say These are not aimed at one group in particular, I learn something every time I read it, it may seem basic, but the same problems keep cropping up no matter what the experience level. Nobody is above learning.
One final thing, WWW is right, everybody knows the sinking feeling when you realise that you are lost. I have and every pilot I've ever been in contact has at some point, eventually it happens to us all despite(or because of!) the best efforts of technology.

I have had a failure mode in an HS125 whereby the batteries went into series (which they should only do for engine start) thus putting 56v through everything that was expecting 28v. It took out nearly everything that was switched on at the time (including all three inverters, nearly all the avionics, and much else besides.)

I have no idea if such a thing could happen in a 747, but it certainly gave pause for thought on our flight deck.

Compasses and mechanical stopwatches are a good idea.

W

Hi folks,

Well this thread has got a few comments in it now! I have a few replies… It’s now the 11th; I’m answering posts from as far back as 7th!! Apologies.



FlyingForFun: 7/10

The concept of my being invited to consider a ‘go/no-go decision’ at that time was certainly not part of the picture of my tuition then. Perhaps it should have been! But I wasn’t at that level of confidence, and anyway I just wanted to fly. It takes me an hour to drive to this airfield, and once there I like to get in as much as I can.

Your other point about communications, yes I agree. It would certainly help me a lot if one Instructor knew what the other had been doing.



In Altissimus: 7/10

Wow, your first solo landaway and first navex was your QXC?! For whatever reasons, right or wrong, that’s impressive! My QXC was, though, my second solo navex, but my first solo landaway.

I am thinking again about the changing of schools. As I have said, I am going to talk to the CFI…



Wcollins: 7/10

Hear! hear!



Genghis the Engineer: 7/10

For my first solo navex (para #1 of my first posting) I had done none of the exams. For my QXC, I had Air Law but not the others you mentioned. And as I mentioned above, this CB stuff was no part of a go/no-go test. And as you say, even if it had been, the FI should have not let me fly.



Chipmunk2: 7/10

I think that’s the thing, isn’t it - one thinks that the Instructor knows better than the Student.

I am going to tackle the CFI about this. Personally I think he has to bear some of the blame - after all the tuition is supposed to be under his overall direction, I assume. As for the CAA, I will wait to see the outcome of my chat.



Northern Highflyer: 7/10

A short field landing during your skills test, and you hadn’t been shown one? Were you flying out of my school…?!

I don’t see why you should have to be made to feel guilty over changing instructor for your IMCR. One presumes that if your first instructor had been thorough, you would have been happy to stay with him.



Whirlybird: 7/10

Thanks.

I can see now, because of all of the postings, that the experiences I have had have been pretty bad. I thought the quality of my instruction was bad; but I didn’t actually know it was bad - and certainly not how bad. There is a big difference. This was why I posted this thread.

And I guess I can see that because this is such a bad thing to have had happened, a couple of people don’t believe it. That’s their choice. I have sent you a pm btw.

Well, I have now done my QXC without the use of the radio nav aids too! I still feel it would have been nice to have known what a QDM is and how to use one. And if the instruction is this bad and one has to look out for oneself all the more and not be so trusting of the abilities of the Instructors, then I personally felt that Students should know about the nav aids before the QXC - just in case.

You make another very good point - it’s hard to know what you don’t know. I will work on your suggestion.



drauk:

I think it would be more appropriate to deal with the club first and let them hear my complaints. And thank you, yes all I had done up to that point was to give merely the facts of what took place. Not opinions. That was precisely my intention. It was the opinions of others that I was after. I already know mine.



Now to the 8/10…! But a little break and, sadly, some work first… But just one more thing.

I am compiling a list of things that have happened to me at this school, in preparation for my talk with the CFI. I have another question to which I don’t know the answer. Now I know I am going to get a major amount of flak here and be shot down in flames by some who have read my postings in disbelief, but in spite of them, here it is!

At 4,000 feet across the channel, in a PA28… If one of the fuel caps on the wing were to come off - what would be likely to happen? Nothing? The fuel in that wing would be pulled out? A disaster in the making, or nothing too serious?

Thanks everyone.


TP

SAS

More often than not it has become the primary navigation tool. #

I think the biggest problem here is not making a distinction between a GPS being used for PRIMARY navigation (which is absolutely fine, and is the best way because a GPS is far more reliable, accurate, less prone to gross errors) and it being used for SOLE navigation (which is stupid, because any single device can fail).

In VMC, one can perfectly well use a GPS for primary navigation. It works especially well if you load the route into it. And you SHOULD concurrently read the chart;

I know some people don't read the chart but there will always be people who do silly things, and it would be an interesting question whether a careless person with a GPS is less likely to be lost than a careless person without one; I am sure the answer is that having a GPS is better. Of course there is no data to work on because only those who get hopelessly lost and call D&D or somebody are known about, and it is very hard to get hopelessly lost with a moving-map GPS.

In IMC, one uses the GPS as primary and VOR/DME concurrently. This is also by far the best way to navigate in VMC; the two methods tend to eliminate each other's gross errors.

But this debate can go on for ever, because any navigation method other than visual navigation is bound to detract from one's visual skills! A bit like any speed limit above zero will result in deaths.

The CAA presentations are aimed at the basics, in fact the presenter at the last one I went to told me so; they appear to tailor the material to the statistics which is fair enough. They go over and over what is basically PPL revision. I don't knock it and read every word on every page, but I think there is only so many times you can tell somebody to not get distracted and stall after takeoff.

TPR

At 4,000 feet across the channel, in a PA28… If one of the fuel caps on the wing were to come off - what would be likely to happen? Nothing? The fuel in that wing would be pulled out? A disaster in the making, or nothing too serious?

Whatever happens, you should have enough fuel in the other tank to get across the English Channel, anywhere :O

I would be extremely worried if it was raining though!! That (leaks past filler caps on planes parked outside) I have found is the biggest reason for water in the system. Once I drained out five full-size fuel testers, completely full of water, out of a PA28. When it's 100% water it is easy to think it is just fuel.

Hi IO540:

Well that's a relief it's not serious anyway. No, no rain. And it didn't actually come off. Instructor #2 did a walk round at Le Touquet and a visual check on the fuel levels, but did not replace the cap on the port wing properly. I noticed it in flight, that it was at a wrong angle. It could have come off; but it didn't.

But, it was another little slip from an Instructor which I wouldn't expect to be made...

TP

How strange. Nothing of the sort could ever have happened to me during my training, as the pre flight checklist was always done by the student, ie me. And checking that the caps are on right is a separate checklist item that you do some time after checking the fuel.

Do other people rely on instructors to check out aircraft?

Hi GTW:

I had done my check already, and was told to make it a cursory one anyway as the instructor wanted to get a move on and get back. The Instructor then had a quick walk round and looked at the fuel.

TP

This is called get-home-itis. It kills people.

Hi GTW:

Thanks. I am learning lots here. And certainly about how things should, and should not, be.

TP

I wouldn't read anything into an instructor not putting a fuel cap on quite straight. We are all human.

What were you doing in France on a training exercise? Did you request to do the trip or something?

Seem of dubious training value to plod across the channel on a navex when you could be flying a leg with a map in one hand whilst negotiating to traverse some controlled airspace and then get a diversion. Lunch in France sounds like a jolly day out for the instructor with some training value thrown in as an afterthought.

Would make me suspect the standards are slack if it is routine for low time students on navexs to end up taking Lunch in frogland.

You did have a dinghy on board I hope? Or were you wearing a drysuit?


WWW

WWW:

AAAAARGH!!!

You have really got me into the serious giggles now!

Are you getting such a bashing here that you have to resort to posting what I said in another thread?!!

Heehee!! Come on, put your disbelieving hatchet away.

This is too funny for words...!

TP




Ooops, and I've just seen your posting above...

Yes, that's right, we both had full frog suits on already...!

TP

IO540 - the problem with GPS is twofold.

1) its so good that people use it all the time and forget how to cope without it.

2) the units have so many options and a limited interface that results in an inordinante amount of heads down time fiddling with it.

I've no problem with them myself - I have a Garmin PilotIII and think its wonderful. Its useful in IMC IR training as you can show Bloggs in real time just how pants his hold pattern is. It is very useful to show blogs what is happening pictorally and get him to relate that to what the needles are doing. I find this allows Bloggs to build the mental model he needs in a fraction of the time it often takes without.

I think a lot of people bemoan the rise of GPS because it takes some of the skill away from aviating. Thereby devaluing it a little.

Unfortunately this is an age old and accelerating trend. Blatting about in a tiger moth is much harder than in a C152. In the future we will all be flying FADEC push button diesel engines with integrated GPS avionics and probably basic autopilots.

You could call it progress and be grateful or you could lament the facts.

Cheers

WWW

---------------------
---------------------


What bashing? This isn't bashing. Hell I've been in 27 page threads with death threats before now. This is barely a heated word.

Glad to hear you had frog suits on. Your chances of survival without are minimal even in the Channel in summer.

Right, I'm off waterskiing for the first time now. If I don't post again you'll know it didn't go well.

Cheers

WWW

ps I still don't believe your instructor sent you out solo navex with CB's visible. ;)

WWW I stayed out of this thread 'til now because I don't use VOR/DME etc at all (the a/c I fly has none...) but.....X-channel as a student?

There was an article in Flyer by a fairly well known instructor that made the point that as a morale booster and in the right circumstances and timing it is a superb exercise. "Why am I spending all this money to learn to fly?" ..... trip to calais/Le2K ...."of course, THATS why I'm spending all this money!!"

This particular QFI does a lot of x-channel check-outs, so has no need to manufacture jollys.

An open mind can be a good thing, even perhaps for a very experienced instructor.
Slip

I'm willing to be persuaded. I'm just naturally suspicious of dual navexs that involve landing somewhere agreeable. Its always at the students expense and sometimes has dubious training value but is a nice day out for the instructor.

That said I used to engineer it myself to take a couple of students off for the day and do some landaways in Faro and Granada for lunch. It can make a pleasant change for everyone and make the training more enjoyable for Bloggs.

Or it can be a lazy arsed freebie for some hour building clock watching scum of an instructor who probably eats babies or something.

Take your pick.

Cheers

WWW

WWW:

That's fine. I can hardly believe it either!

Next time you are down my way, come and have a drink and meet this Instructor. You can ask direct then...

TP

hmmm, about those silly things like compass and clock.

Royal Nepalese 75 just lost the lot out of KTM - that's Kathmandu. Bit lumpy out there. Just about an hour for it to get down safely. The two previous 75's it happened to didn't make it. Lost all on board. Technology is a tool and only a tool relies on it.

GPS - sole or primary nav - be honest. You know and I know that folks are using it as sole. They haven't drawn a line on a map since they discovered the combining of the words credit card, Duracell and Garmin.

It's habitual, it's engrained and it's thoroughly supported by the industry because the mark up is higher than a half mill.

The training experiences suffered by the Phoenix and others are and have always been available in the UK and elsewhere. I first set foot in a club 28 years ago and asked the gods to teach me to fly. Ended up having to threaten to call the CAA before they'd get the POH for a PA28-140 out of the safe. I didn't agree with them that it actually was a 4 seater when fueled up and wanted to do a W&B. Tragic thing was I had my licence by then and no one else had ever had the gumption to demand the same during the prior 8 years Cherokees had flown there.

They continued to fly that way for many years after.

I may fly full glass with a head up display these days but I'm still very active in light aviation. Nothing suprises me amongst these seemingly bizarre experiences. For all apparently mortally wounded by by the Welshman's turn of phrase sup once more from his words. Wind yourselves up into a tizzy yet again and once calmed down re-read. As with others posting here there's some very good advice within.

The uncomfortable fact for many of you is that the Weslshman won't lie down and be shafted. He and anyone he advises will not be walked over by lazy, bored, shoddy practices in GA. If you don't think they exist you are very, very wrong.

Regards
Rob

PS If you do fly with all that dreadful nav and comms gear in your aeroplane here's a pointer to an invaluable resource you will be utterly daft to ignore.

A two page avionics trouble shooting guide which is both excellent and free. Comes as a pdf download for you to print out and laminate if you've got any sense at all.

Go to
http://www.aea.net/MemberDirectory/

Click on 'Pilot Resources in the left margin and on the page that comes up you select the third item down catchily titled:
Pilot's Avionics Troubleshooting Guide

If you feel first stages of each procedure seem simplistic you've obviously never spoken to an avionics engineer about their experiences or flown with me

:uhoh: :uhoh:

Hi PPRuNe Towers:

Thanks for your comments.

I am here to learn, and share. I am appreciative of all comments on flying. The Welshman may be a great pilot / instructor. But in my book there is no place for rudeness or bad manners of any kind, in any walk of life. Others have kindly imparted their knowledge here with style and good will. The Welshman's people skills suck.

However, I have now forgiven him...!




IO540: 8/10

I know this Instructor is not that well off. But I can’t believe this occurred because of wanting to get a fee. Knowing what I now know, I think it is more likely a case of just being not terribly good at the job.



Tiger_Moth: 8/10

You’re a lucky person.



Whirlybird: 8/10

Does the Instructor that saved you live anywhere near me and if so can I have the telephone number?!



Circuit Basher: 8/10

Brilliant post. Thank you!



Whirlybird: 9/10

Terrifying. What happened to the owner/school, was it closed down?



Aussie Andy: 9/10

Thanks for the comments. As for perception, believe me I know the difference between real rain, thunder and lightning in the air flying on a solo navex, and something in my imagination.

This thread and the comments of you folk have certainly made me decide to tackle the school about it, as you may already have seen. I am going to get to the CFI with a list, and a formal letter recording the details I am raising in the meeting. After that, I will go to the CAA. Even if I am laughed at by some.



dublinpilot: 9/10

Brilliant post, and thank you. I couldn’t agree more.



Strafer: 9/10

ditto above.



say again slowly: 9/10

Para 1: well, this one did. Para 2: I mis-read earlier, I know now you are referring to In Altissimus over the QXC. My QXC was my second solo navex. My first was that described in #1 of the original posting to this thread.




Look, folks. Flying is something I have always wanted to do. I also have a very real reason for doing it, and a very real purpose for doing it. It is also the only job I have ever wanted to do other than that which I do do. Dinner parties, rich businessmen… oh come on, please! Why mock those with lesser knowledge and ability - at the moment - than you may have?

Ok, time for another break and a cup of tea!

TP

TP,

The instructor I referred to left for a well deserved airline job the day after I finished my PPL. He was an hour builder, but believed in doing his best at everything he did. Not all airline wannabe hour building instructors are bad. The good ones get jobs quicker, I've noticed; their attitude shows - as does that of the bad ones! Sometimes life IS fair. The school should have been closed down; I know an instructor who tried to get it closed, and failed. But it's closed now, and the airfield is under new management.

Unfortunately I don't know any good instructors in your area, but someone will, and I'm sure they exist; keep looking. :ok:

TPR, you are generally quite careful to be post a specific reply to each person that has responded in this thread. However, you've not replied to me about naming the school at which this all happened. So, I'm just curious, why have you elected not to name this flying school? The consensus is that what happened to you is terrible and as it is a matter of absolute fact there is presumably no problem with spreading gossip about them.

Whirlybird:

Well, it was worth a shot!



drauk:

Please see my reply of this morning, 08:15, towards the end.



TP

Just what the hell are 'people skills'? Sounds like more new age management Pseudo tosh to me.

Be very very very careful about letting people know what you think of any FTO. You can land yourself in legal trouble quite easily - I've seen it happen before and its a pain for all involved.

Your real identity is easily established.

Cheers

WWW

WWW:

People skills are what you don't have much of.

As for the rest of this mumbo jumbo: *yawn, yawn*.

Cheers!

TP

I reserve the right to let you have the last word.

Cheers

WWW

I am a relative newby (to PPRuNe, not aviation) and mainly lurk, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much, but I am on many other forums and newsgroups and would say that the contributions to this thread by WWW fall well below the standard normally expected of moderators.

In most places moderators are the ones who step in when an individual is being accused of lying, who put oil on the water when it gets rough and who plead for moderation, rather than be the accusers, stirers and shouters, acting as judge and jury.

If I were WWW I would seriously consider whether I were an appropriate person to be a moderator.

I'll be interested to see how long this posting stays on the thread. If the moderators have the interests of the forum at heart it will stay, if they (as I fear) are more interested in their own power and prestige it will disappear having only been read by a few. I may even be banned. I would only ask those few who do see it to carry the message forward.

Tony

WWW is robustly making the point that there tends to be more than one side to most stories, and that the same events can admit of more than one interpretation. Given the gravity of the claims being made here, that point needs to be made fairly strongly.

Well, I'm a very new instructor and I may change my mind, but at the moment I feel that people skills are at least as important as flying skills when teaching someone to fly. Unfortunately I get the impression that not a lot of instructors know that. :( WWW sounds like he's suffering from instructor burn-out, or maybe just plain old bitterness and cynicism.

A member of the forum can say "The Phoenix is lying".

A moderator should say "there are often two sides to a story"

W

Tony B. Your post makes intersting reading. you say you are a lurker and your opinion doesn't count for much. Well, your opinion is valued the same as anyone else who reads pprune. Just because you don't post often doesn't mean you have no weight behind you.

Second point is why you think your post would be deleted and yourself banned :confused: Why????

As for moderating this thread, I stepped in a few pages back to calm things down a bit and it worked for a while. Right now, most of the posts have gone back to having a go at individuals rather than the main point of this thread and that is, "The quality of your instruction...."

"What next then" I hear you cry. Well, whatever I say I will do to stop the thread turning into a flame war, I will get a lot of stick by some. The only thing I can do to save it is lock it and leave it and that I might do if it continues to go the way it is going.

Tony, as someone who's been running the site since it started I have to ask why you think we'd remove your post?

It's us who are being belted by low flying lawyers missives regarding a long running thread here on affairs at another GA field and we take it all in our stride. It happened last year with a thread regarding another UK operation.

As I wrote before nothing that goes on in UK GA can suprise me. However, a mild 'it takes two sides' won't cut it in this case. The Welshman was looking after our interests in two ways. He gave excellent advice regarding flight training to all those new to aviation and he made it brutally clear to the Phoenix that whether to us, his club/FTO or the CAA SRG group that he or she would have to front up with solid information at some point if wishing to persist with such claims.

It is obvious that Phoenix is willing to do that privately whatever the merits of the case and thus, you will note and I'm sure Phoenix will confirm, not one word of their multiple posts has been altered, edited or deleted.

For those who need it spelling out: the Welshman could have made all those points using another ID. He did it with a moderators subtitle as it offers us a more substantial defence if needed. Why?????

Phoenix while admittting, what might seem to some, breathtaking naivety also alleges serious failings at a school. Despite this being The PROFESSIONAL PILOTS Rumour Network more than 95% of our legal problems stem from aggrieved Flight Training Organisations/Airfield Operators. In this way we were able to allow an important debate to continue. It may well be you'd do it another way - that's fine by me. Collectively PPRuNe challenged the story repeatedly while offering thought through advice.

I find that People Skills singularly fail to stop lawyers trying to take away my home. I hope you'll understand if not agree.

Regards
Rob Lloyd