WWW,
What the hell is going on with you? Distrust, resignation, despair, cynicism, all in a couple of posts!! I KNOW you're a nice guy, at least some people thought you were a good instructor once, and you used to make some good points on threads. But if you're making any point at all here, I missed it too. :confused: :confused: :confused: Saying most people have a bad time learning to fly is not enough. If they do, that needs changing, not just being resigned to it. There are some lousy instructors out there, some good ones, and some fantastic ones. I've met a fair few of every type. I know which I want to be. The difficult thing for a student is recognising which is which, especially in the beginning.

I was "rescued" after a horrendous start to my PPL(A) course (which most of PPRuNe has heard enough about), by an instructor who was determined not to just turn me into a pilot, but a good one. He refused to accept second best, either in me OR IN HIMSELF. Most of us, instructors, PPLs, and students, could learn from that attitude.

Oh, by the way WWW, I do rather like being called a "glorious exception"; thankyou. ;)

WWW - I've stood on the margins of this thread, feeling sympathy for Phoenix as I, too, had some pretty poor management of the second part of my PPL training (having done the first half in Canada, which was well managed, I returned to UK). I feel that whilst your posts of 7 Oct 03 0310 and 1207 were hardly inducing a feelgood factor for a student PPL who's already had his confidence severely dented.

• Yes, you may be an experienced instructor.
• Yes, you may find the story difficult to believe.
• Yes, you may have had a bad day.
• Yes, it may be your usual posting style.
• Yes, I agree, a student PPL needs to be exposed to some of the harsh realities that he/she may face in the real world of aviation.
• Yes, you may be a moderator.

However, IMHO, from a CRM / HF point of view, on this thread, your tone stinks.

Sorry - not being personal, but feel that some winding in of necks, chill pills and recovery of teddies into prams might be appropriate until the pills take effect.

I am not personally involved or specifically acquainted with any of the posters on this thread, so am just going by what I see on the screen.

(smilies deliberately omitted).

I am distrusting that an instructor would cheerfully send off their student whilst pointing to the local CBs.

I am resigned to the fact that most PPL's lapse within 5 years.

I despair of the poor quality of instruction you can find out there.

I am cynical by nature and with regard to aviation training this has stood me in good stead.

Phoenix Rises - stop being precious. I never called you a liar. I asked when this event occurred - just out of curiosity as to what the weather may actually have been like that day. Could have been isolated CB day or a mid August thunderstorm strewn sky. Big difference.

Feel free to stuff my good wishes wherever is your personal preference.

Cheers,

WWW


---------------------------------
Circuit Basher posts
---------------------------------


Circuit basher - it was never my intent to provide a feelgood factor nor is CRM relvant here - this is an internet discussion forum and nothing more.

On Private Flying there is naturally an esprit d'corps that biases every thread towards the poor old student - to the detriment of the slack hour building instructors and greedy lying school owners. OK - thats the nature of the forum and fair enough.

I am not one who will virtually by default believe everything written here. If something sounds improbable I'll wade in with my size 9's and make no apology for that. I still DON'T BELIEVE that PR's instructor knowingly and cheerfully sent him off solo into a hazardous CB environment. I DON'T BELIEVE it.

I can understand that may be his perception but if so it must be wrong.

As a FI you have a legal duty of care to your student. FI's have and do get prosecuted if a student ends of dead or injured. I know FI's who have faced trials and believe me its quite scary to have your fate balanced by 12 people and a judge who know NOTHING about aviation or normal flight training procedures.

You can go to jail for manslaughter for sending a student off into innapropriate weather. This happened to a Prestwick instructor who was entirely blameless and totally professional. Nonetheless he seriously had to consider going to prison.

With that backdrop FI's are exceedingly cautious about weather conditions - particularly for early solo exercises.

Which is why I DON'T BELIEVE some of the things described by the instigator of this thread.

I'm not getting angry and don't need a chill pill. This is, after all, only a silly little online discussion between a few people who will never meet and are constricted by the very limiting medium of text based conversation.

I offered Mr Rises the advice of seeking a few ground hours with an independent FI to ascertain just what he has missed out on in his training to date. I believe that to be good advice. So armed he could set about his training provider to ensure that he is adequately prepared for his skilltest. I also advised him that trying another school should be considered.

Don't feel that me being a Moderator on another forum or me being a somewhat retired FI gives me a fig of authority or duty to be Mr Nice. Feel free to call me all the names under the sun and castigate everything I say for the rubbish no doubt some of it is. Thats what PPRuNe is all about. Anything else would be horribly sterile and not half as popular. ;)

Cheers

WWW

OK, WWW, that is all well put and makes some good points, whether or not any of us choose to agree with them. I suspect that if you'd posted like that in the first place there wouldn't have been so many people thinking you were out of order.

On sending a student off solo with CBs around...

As you say, it could have been an isolated one which the instructor was sensibly pointing out. The wx could then have got worse, unexpectedly and unforecast. It's possible.

On the other hand...

I have heard of one flying school owner (no longer around, I believe), who used to INSIST on having his aircraft flying all the time if humanly possible. I've heard stories - and I personally trust their source - of instructors being told by him to send students out in unsuitable weather, on pain of dismissal. I'd accept the dismissal...but I'm not thousands of pounds in debt with a family, and some instructors are. I heard of one solo student who got lost in low cloud and rain, and found and led back by this owner, and according to the person who told me, it was a miracle the person was found.

True or false? I don't know; I wasn't around at the time. I'm spreading rumours - but note this is the Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network, so I can. The point is, it COULD happen. ANYONE can start and run a flying school. So did that happen in Phoenix's case? Who knows? Students need to be careful, and perhaps WWW's cynicism is sensible.

Just to get things in balance, I've been around a bit and the majority of flying school owners and instructors I've met are caring, hardworking, and doing their best at a difficult job. But not all!!!!

Folks - I am travelling for a couple of more days and will reply to each of you when I am back hopefully Friday.

However, what I shall quickly say now is:


a) A huge thank you for the input on this thread, I cannot tell you how much it is appreciated.

b) WWW: As you have reared your head again here - I am not precious, but you could stop being an A.H. Incidentally - you had all the details of the flight via my pm (which I wish I had never bothered to send), so what did you find on that day on that route? Clear skies and unlimited viability? I think not. Yet I see you have dodged that. And: of course you have called me a liar. If you think you haven't, your instructions to your former students must have been as unclear as your other comments here.


TP

WWW says:I don't believe everything I read, and I know great instructors whom I have a lot of respect for. I have also come across students who exagerate. But that doesn't mean its always so...

I think its OK to question the facts, but how can you be so sure that what Phoenix says "must be wrong"?!? Seems like you have the same bias you accuse others of, only in reverse?

On the case in point, I like everyone else have been shocked at the story - and I hope to God its not true... but if it is, then maybe it should be brought to the attention of appropriate authorities, and now that Phoenix has been able to confirm that what he says happened shouldn't happen, then he might be prepared to do so.

This forum cannot be judge or jury for EITHER side of the argument... in that respect I agree with WWW that there can sometimes be a bit too much bias in the "poor students" direction. We just all need to be calm balanced and intelligent people! :8

Happy flying one and all :O,

Andy

Look Phoenix. So far you have come to PPRuNe and got up some BA pilots noses ending in a girly hair pulling fest:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...292#post952292

We've just had a nice girly hair pulling fest here ourselves. Try not to turn these two events into a trend line...

I once had a student - a mature businessman - who suddenly got the aviation bug. Whirly probably remembers him. Complete pain in the backside with a lot of cash, a lot of distractions and not much aptitude. He too spent an inordinant amount of time pontificating about just which flash £££,£££ aircraft he was going to buy for his business travels.

He too knew next to nothing about self flown business travel or could tell a Cessna from a Piper at 20 paces. Last I heard he had bought a right nail and had made some fairly major infractions on an impossibly ambitious flight to Schipol. He was a walking liability with a pile of cash.

He was also very difficult to train. Hated this or that instructor for no apparent reason, didn't like doing this or that exercise, was bored with this or that lecture. Took him ages to qualify and he whinged all the way whilst fellow coursemates sailed on making good progress from steady application under the same instructors in the same aircraft. I caught him cheating with a GPS unit on navexs for an example of his attitude.


Phoenix - I am not rearing my head as I never ducked it away. You can ask me to stop replying and flounce off if you want to but I may take no notice. You are precious and quick to fire off the insults and take aggrievance believing people are calling you a liar. I'm not dodging the facts of the weather on your day - you sent me the details and I found it was really difficult to check historical weather records. Thats all - thought it might have been easy to do but its not.

The fact remains that I, personally, DO NOT BELIEVE that your FI sent you off on an early solo navex whilst cheerfully admiring the huge local CB's. Its not credible.

My instructions to students were always intended to be a model of clarity. Nevertheless its a suprisingly difficult skill and the ability for a student to interpret an instruction in a new and suprising way is almost boundless.

Cheers

WWW

B :mad: y hell www! Telling tales now? I've no idea how rich Pheonix is, but haven't we all dreamed about owning our own plane?

Compairing Pheonix to your former student, is unhelpful, and unfair. You don't know enough about him/her to make that call. As Whirly said earlier, you should take the story at face value, as if it's true, he needs advise. If it's not, then it's his loss. I for one, believe the jist of the story.



Well, given the above I don't see how anyone could read it as anything other than calling Pheonix a liar.



I dare say that it's your comments that have dragged this thread down. And since almost all comments of other users on your post, have been negative, I would think that I'm not alone in believing that.

You did give Phoenix some good advise, in telling him/her to sit down with an instructor (s)he trusts, and to look at another school. Couldn't you have left it at that, and left a benifical post, rather than dragging this whole thread down?

Speaking as someone who is generally a confident person, who once had his flying confidence ruined by one instructor (out of about 10 very good ones), I'm glad I didn't learn to fly with someone with an attitude like yours. I'm sure I'd have given up at the first hurdle.

dp

Don't extrapolate a contentious bb posting so far - its not valid.

Quick review:

I started off telling this student pilot that he should not get involved with radio nav until he has mastered basic nav. It gets you into all sorts of trouble and is best left to the end.

I did not and do not find credible this posting by Mr Rises:

[i]I also quite clearly recall that the final words to me from the Instructor #2 as I boarded the aircraft for the solo were along the lines of ‘look at that magnificent cumulonimbus cloud formation… did know that that type of cloud has more energy in it than an atomic bomb’.

I don't believe an instructor would place his job and his liberty on the line to send Mr Rises solo in a dangerous CB environment.

I have encountered middle aged affluent businessmen learning to fly intending to buy their own large aircraft before. During that previous experience I found that they often embarked on this course of action with little research and then expected to be hand held and spoon fed all the way.

By not being aware that a QXC comes at the end of the syllabus and by not being aware that one generally studies for the PPL exams before or during training; Mr Rises fits into a model in my head based on previous experience.

Thats a side issue and not really germaine to the point of this argument which seems to be Mr Rises is hysterical at having his version of events disbelieved and a lot of other PPLs want to stick up for him as I am a big nasty flying instructor moderator who should be nicer to people.

Sounds like a pants school to me operating a pants syllabus.

Still, Mr Rises ignorance of how a normal PPL course is conducted leads me to place him in a certain category of student.

Cheers

WWW


ps I could of course well be wrong and he's a splendid fellow who will make a superior aviator. I hope this is the case. ;)

WWW,

So you're an FI and a moderator are you? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!

Your postings are more reminiscent of some of the hormonally challenged Kevin's who occasionly pop up on pprune. TPF posts a thread about his experiences as he sees them, you then call him a liar, demand proof (which you later find you're incapable of verifying) tell him he's talking bollocks and now accuse him of 'flouncing' and being 'precious'.

I suspect that he's getting in the neck due to your experiences of other 'bad' students, but as someone posted earlier, a student is often just a reflection of their teacher.

To baldy state that no FI would ever, ever do what TPR claimed is stupid. As most Instructors are human beings they, like all other people, will range from the consistently excellent to the downright negligent.

Grow up, you big baby.

Ok www,

You say you don't believe Phoenix's story. Therefore are you not calling him a liar?


dp

No instructor would send someone off with CB's around. I've known some pretty awful instructors and schools, but not one would ever do that.

As for doing the QXC as the first solo nav, you've got to be kidding me. If it is true, tell us the name of the school so we can get it closed.

There are plenty of 'bad' students out there. Mainly the type of person who learns to fly so they can talk about it. Dinner party pilots as I call them. The instructor ends up working harder than they do, not the object of the exercise, a bit of pre-reading would usually be nice.

All getting a bit heated here though. I am also a bit peeved by the "instructor" bashing that goes on in this forum, so I understand why WWW would get a bit annoyed.

SAS,

The reason for my last post, was because www seems to be critisising pheonix for thinking he was calling him a liar. He seems to think that Pheonix has come up with the strange idea the was being called a liar, when he actually wasn't.

It seems obvious to me that www is calling him a liar, but doesn't want to admit to that.

If he wants to call someone a liar, then he should come out and do it. There is little point in telling someone you don't belive them, but you are not calling them a liar.

dp

SAS,

It is true.

I believe the school in question should be closed - but I've put all that behind me now and am enjoying my flying.

For what it's worth, an Instructor recently posted some of the goings on at that place - the thread was quickly deleted from the Instructors forum...

In Altissimus, I'm gob smacked. That is so far beyond what's acceptable.

Could you please PM me the name of the place. I'd rather not have it posted on a public BB, simply because of the legal implications.

I'm glad you are now enjoying your flying, hopefully somewhere a bit more professional.

Blimey, a fully developed ruck - on Private Flying? I thought I was in Wannabes for a minute . . . :)

Happy to report that at EGSG at least, 4 separate instructors were absolutely paranoid about sending me off into anything resembling 'iffy' wx. Not only that; both my first solo land-away and the QXC were preceded by dual trips, to make the solo a bit less intimidating.

No-one was allowed to solo until they'd passed air law, and I was well practised in 121.5 & QDMs before I was let out of the circuit on my own. In fact, so cautious were they that my final hour of solo nav was postponed fourteen times due wx. On one occasion, (on an otherwise beautiful day) my QXC was scrubbed due to a TEMPO giving a 30% chance of CBs at one of my destination airfields.

Overly cautious? Perhaps, but I'm still here and all those 152s have still got 3 wheels.

TPR - WWW has his own, shall we say 'inimitable' style, but if there are one or two raised eyebrows at your story, it's probably because what you describe is so far removed from the experience of many people here. That alone should tell you all you need to know about your school.

Liar would be too strong a word. Incorrect perspective might be better.

I did think it would be possible to find archives of Met date online but when I tried I couldn't. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I tried the Metoffice website.

Shall we all have a hug now and go down the pub?

Cheers

WWW

Well chaps. I am going to give this another 24hrs on the forum.

A great thread has gone downhill in my opinion and it needs to stop now.

If things stay as they are, i.e. take this last page for example, then its definately going in the bin.

If it changes back to the norm then of course it can stay.

Think before you hit the reply button.
This threads future is in your hands now.............. :uhoh:

Past seven day's weather is available HERE - but don't know if that helps.

TPR's story is, indeed incredible but sadly, could well be perfectly true (having heard many such horror stories from the young chaps coming through who've worked for flying schools).

I think, TPR, that the advice to move schools ASAP is something that you should consider giving some serious and immediate thought to (I know it's difficult, especially if you’ve "paid up-front") but it does sound as though the training and service that you are getting is well below any expected levels.

WWW does have an excellent point when he says that you may want to consider a 'Private Instructor'. If you vet them well, you'll probably get someone who is a terrific teacher with a great deal of experience and you'll have the benefit of continuity in training.

Conversely, what WCollins says about some people not wanting to fly in anything less than CAVOK is also absolutely true. I’ve spoken to several PPL's who wouldn’t consider flying even if there was the tiniest of a crosswind component. Whilst I would never condone what happened to you, you have had a tremendous experience – made even better by the fact that you managed to walk away from it in one piece :D ;) :D ;) – and that is the best that any of us can hope for. . . .

Do please keep us posted and if you have the time, could you PM me the name of the school (just for curiosity's sake)?

Cheers,

G

Well all I can say is that I hope TPR isn't put off either his PPL or PPRuNe by all this.

I had an excellent instructor during my PPL, and I would recommend the school to anyone. But I headed off on a solo landaway and made it to Shoreham just before a thunderstorm hit (see here :) ). There was no "Look at that magnificent CB... off you go Bloggs" as WWW puts it. We looked at the met, there were PROB30 TSRA on the TAF ... but we decided that it was ok and I could turn around. I went. It happens.

The difference, I think, was that I was able to cope better. Things were as bad as they could have got in my case - had the CBs been closer then i would have turned back before landing, if they were later then i would never have got stuck. TPRs school seems to be the problem here, because it sounds like he was sent off without the experience. However, you cannot call him a liar because he went off solo with crappy weather around. It can happen at the best schools.

TPR, don't go away. PPRuNe is usually better than this...

Nah - this is PPRuNe at its best - a spicy chilli of debate and passionate sparks flying argument. Much better than the semolina we so often get on Private Flying.

Cheers

WWW

TPR

I don't know much about the other forums, as I don't read them. But as Evo said, don't go away. Private Flying forum is usually much friendlier than this thread, and you will find it a very useful place for getting helpful information.

Live you to your name, and rise from the ashes of a bad experience. ;)

dp

BRL,

I really think you should leave this thread. In between WWW stirring it because he's bored and likes a fight (well, you more or less said that, WWW), Phoenix getting outraged at being called a liar (and he was), and various naive people saying it couldn't happen (it could and it does, sadly), a lot of important points are being made. This thread needs to stay.

I've retracted the bit about calling Pheonix a liar, but I am still very wary about what the instructor is itimated to have said, no sane individual would ever say it.

Whirly, I wouldn't mind being called naive if it were the case. Having been around many schools and instructors and being an arch cynic, I cannot think of any who would think that acceptable and I've been to some pretty appalling places(Nah.. can't bring myself to name any here) and some fantastic ones (Tiger Heli's for example) and nobody would ever send a student if there were alot of CB's around.

I will agree that the place sounds a shambles and I would suggest that TPR goes else where for his training. A private FI is a very good way of going if you can find a good one. I would like to know the names of places like this, so that I never inadvertantly suggest somebody give them a try.

Hi Whirly. I see what you are saying and you have given me another option for this thread. If it doesn't pick up then I will lock it and leave it. That way it stays around for others to see.

The problem with it, as I see is, that it has degenerated into a cat-fight/spicy argument, whatever one wants to call it and it is not good reading for some. I have left it for a while for the purposes that you rightly state, that there are a lot of important points that are being made, but a quick look at the last page confirms what my point is.

I can say, it might even deter people from reading pprune if every thread was like this. They would simply look elsewhere. I don't want that. You lot have made this into a pretty busy forum, no crap, no real nastiness, no backstabbing and so on and so on. This is why people keep coming back, most of the crap is elsewhere. Have a look at what Evo and Dublinpilot say. That just sums our forum up nicely.

If people want "spicy" arguments then I suggest they take up commercial flying and go to the forum just for them. ;)

Hi folks:

Another quick visit, from the hotel room telephone connection.

Thanks for your continued input and comments. One thing I must clarify and correct, though, and straight away: I read just now, on skimming through to keep updated, that someone wrote that my QXC was my first solo nav. This is not correct, it wasn't and I did not say that it was. It was my second - please see original post to this thread. I think whoever it was has perhaps mis-read my posting/s.

You know, whether you believe me or not (and I am very grateful to those who do, which I think seems to be most of you) the important thing here for me is that you think that what occurred to me is pretty astonishing and hence the reason for disbelief. That, in itself - when I step back from the earlier feeling of being a bit miffed - is of great value, since it shows what should not be happening.

I have no intention of leaving PPRuNe, don't worry! You are all, I feel, a good bunch of folks at heart. And, just look at the energy and enthusiasm that you throw at a thread...!

Thanks again, and I'll respond more when I am back at base again.

TP

It is sad, because when I first started learning to fly I had a lot of respect for WWW's views. Private Flying was unmoderated back then, and along with a couple of others he used to keep an eye on things in here so we saw a lot of him. He said things as he saw them, but it was constructive and with a lot of helpful advice. When I asked a question and he answered I knew there was something worth reading. Now it seems limited to the occasional troll or flame when he's bored. Sort it out WWW, flying the 737 seems to have gone to your head.

SAS,
Perhaps calling you naive was a trifle over the top; my apologies. I was thinking of a particular flying school, no longer in existence, where I have heard from various different and informed sources that such things did happen, mainly due to an owner who was determined to keep his aircraft flying at all costs. If it can happen once...

BRL,
Point taken; moderate as you see fit.

Evo
I agree with you about WWW. I think he should go and stir things on some other forum, not here. And not for so little reason.

Yeah I think I know the one you mean, I heard some frightening things about that place just over the Welsh border. Thankfully it is no longer with us.

It may be nice to have a list and rating system for all flying schools around the country, but I think the legal implications could be daft, but it may help to stop incidents such as the ones described.

BRL - I think (hope) you're in the minority here. I for one am enjoying this thread. We are all big boys and girls here and I don't see anyone leaving pprune in disgust because someone anoymous called another anoymous person a name, or because of a few 'passionate' statements on one thread.

This thread is useful for the orginal poster and entertaining for the rest of us - what more do you want?

PS W3 - You can forget the hug, but I'll let you buy the first round!

Strafer. Your comments are noted.

Thank you for your input.

I wonder just what it does take to get a school closed down. Or, for that matter, is it right to actually close a school down? You could have a perfectly good person owning the business and a rogue instructor who does his dodgy stuff outside of anyone's view so the owner has only got rumour to go on. I've seen very dodgy instructors (the sort who do fully developed spins on a trial lesson, coming back with white-faced passengers) stay for years.

I am aware that my comments here are often negative but I've seen so many dodgy practices (poor record-keeping of fuel tank content being just one recently-topical example) that if one was do get strict, more than half of schools would close tomorrow.

I still don't agree with not using Radio Nav aids (or knowing how to use them) before doing your QXC.

Of course each school/instructor has different thoughts on this, but I had to fly a triangle using radio nav's before I was allowed to go off on my QXC.

From my own personnal POV, I was very happy about this, as it gave me much needed confidence that I may not have had, should I not have demonstrated to an instructor that I could indeed fly from A to B to C and back to A without looking out the window to get a ground fix.

Quite early on in my navigation exercises, I was also flow to a place (i.e. simulate been lost) by an instructor, then told to pin point my location using radio nav aids and plot a course to somewhere.

At the right school, and with the right instructor(s), they should be able to make the call as to if you are upto the job of using them or not, and at what speed to introduce them into your flying.

I actually cocked up one of my first duel nav exercises, and the instructor asked me the question "do you know how do use VOR's". I said yes, and he said "well use this one to get us home then, since you've cocked your sheet up". (which I did).

I'd much rather learn to fly at a school that teaches you at a pace that matches your capabilities, rather than one that follows a set pattern for each and every student, regardless.

Mikee,

I don't think being up to using navaids is the point. I personally think that the QXC should show to a student that it's possible to fly anywhere using nothing but map and compass. That includes finding yourself again after you've got lost. Too many people, PPLs and instructors included, think it's not possible, or not necessary. It's quite possible, and not difficult; but it requires practice, and if you don't get that practice for your PPL, when will you? Of course navaids, GPS etc are useful too. But you need to be able to cope when your GPS dies, and you're in an area with no VORs etc - and there are lots of those; ever flown in Wales or Scotland?

[effects dodgy scouse accent and shouts "caam down, caam down"]

Having a row is dead easy on a bulletin board. Someone goes fishing or throws an ill-judged remark into the debate, someone else bites, everyone takes sides and off we go. That’s one of the downsides of communication on the internet – people have the cloak of anonymity; we cannot see an expression, hear a tone of voice. We can only express ourselves through what we write, and some people are better at it than others.

It doesn’t happen face to face. I’m fortunate enough to have met many of the contributors to this thread (in various states of inebriation) and there isn’t one of them I wouldn’t want to have a pint with again. At my first Gatbash a group of us stood in a circle and, after the introductions were out of the way, one of the first comments was; “This is Pprune - shouldn’t we have an argument now?” And we all had a good laugh.

For anyone new to Pprune, or anyone who doesn’t get the chance to put faces to names at the bashes, don’t take it too seriously – I certainly don’t. It’s only a website, after all.

To reinforce the message much more eloquently than I can manage, take a few minutes to read the best posting I have ever seen on Pprune – Sick Squid’s reply, 4th post from the top:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=2

Yes, there are some silly comments made by some pretty silly people who should know better. C’est la vie. Be prepared to sort the wheat from the chaff, and Pprune will provide you with many real gems of information. IMHO, this thread is a classic example of that.

BRL,

Don't delete the thread dude, after all, it just reflects life, lots of people with lots of differing opinions, not all of which will see eye to eye!

I can't think of a school that would send someone off on their 1st solo navex and then make it QXC, but it doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. There are a lot of really appalling schools out there, whatever WWW may say and let’s face it, he’s not exactly the customer is he!

F'instance, I was sent off on a QXC in marginal weather, vis. at 1st destination was under 8km, I think the minimum is 10km, correct me if I'm wrong. Upon arrival at the 1st destination, it started to pee with rain, so I phoned the club, who asked me to return, saying the weather at the departure was acceptable. Note the word return, not deviate. Returning to my departure airfield, I strayed into IMC, got lost and eventually landed with a hoooge CB less than 2 miles away from the end of the runway and a crosswind of 20 knots (I was flying a 152). Oh dear!

I completed by QXC a week later, but to be honest, the whole experience scared the crap out of me and I gave up flying shortly afterwards. After a 3-year break I'm now 2 hours away from skills test.

This particular club made me fly with no less than 8 instructors, some of highly dubious proficiency and a couple with inter-personal skills of the Adams family! They didn’t bother with ground school, or proper briefs and definitely were of ‘light the fires and kick the tyres’ mentality, which may be a jolly wheeze, but is not exactly beneficial to your budding PPL!

I have had problems with the customer care side of the club I currently fly with and have posted a couple of threads about this, after a 'debate' with the club, these have been resolved and it's now a friendly and good place to fly.

I am sure the Phoenix has a bad time of it and some of what he says may be exaggerated or not, who am I judge. The point is the general standard of instruction and quality of a/c, school facilities and customer care of GA schools in this country is appalling. I know there are good schools and good instructors, but they are the exception, not the norm IMHO.

Flying is expensive and takes commitment and determination on the part of the student, however the obstacles posed by the above put a lot of guys 'n gals off and act to the detriment of GA. In the end the treatment metered out to Phoenix et al means we all lose out. :)

I remember way back when a fresh faced 17yr old Welshman was dispatched on his QXC in a spamcan. Leg one no problem, leg two from Halfpenny Green to Shobdon - tootling inbound to Shobdon - must be within 20 miles now... where is it? Call them up with the usual speel including what I had for breakfast and sock colouration. Just as they reply my radio goes dead and I enter a ruddy great shower of rain. The knackered plexiglass windscreen becomes totally opaque as its

a) Old and knackered

b) Smeared in a summers worth of oil and bugs

So brave little Welshman ends up doing a rate one turn for a minute and then starts a small flapping exercise. Pounding the jack leads got the radio back and it turned out Shobdon was hiding just behind the rain shower.

I felt right chuffed when I got home and there were many tales of derring do that night. QXC should be a confidence builder. Therefore it needs to be a slight challenge.

I still disagree about radio nav. On the one hand if you are using it properly having been properly trained to do it then you are not developing your map nav skills. And on the other if you are attempting to use it following a cursory introduction then you are likely to mess it up and get yourself in trouble. I have seen it happen hundreds of times before. I've rarely seen two club aircraft with the same Nav fit and this often causes great difficulty even to students who were quite proficient the other day in another aircraft.

Odd new nav kit still catches me out and I really should know better by now.

Fly your heading accurately and be observant - you won't go far wrong.


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I'm not saying I've just used Nav Aids, because I haven't. I've been taught to look out the window, see what is around, and then try work it out on the chart.

I had to fly most of my duel's using just the chart anyway to prove that I could.

Hey, I've even got in the aeroplane, set up a VOR and ADF, only for the instructor to get in 10 minutes later and "unset them" again, such that I couldn't use them.

Looking at it another way, if they don't teach you how to use them before your QXC, just when would they?

Again it comes down to different students and different schools, but if we are realisitic, how many people will pay duel rates for instruction once they've got their license?

I'm happy that I can draw a line between A --> B and fly it, without Radio Nav, however I'm new to this so as WB hinted, I'm not sure I'd want to go fly in Wales or Scotland etc. Need a good few more hours under my belt for that one. How many schools do teach you how to fly in Wales or Scotland? (except the obvious ones).
I know what I'm happy to do, and not happy to do. As time goes on, and I gain experience, hopefully I'll gain more confidence in myself, and spread those wings so to speak.

The last bit of this debate comes down to whether what is taught in the PPL is enough to enable you to fly to your licence privileges.

Objectively the answer has to be NO (what's the legal minimum horizontal visibility, and can it be navigated visually, by a 50-hour-total-time PPL?)

Visual navigation is easy once you can fly the plane almost subconsciously, but that takes far more than 50 hours on type, perhaps 300 hours for the average pilot and that's assuming reasonably recent currency too. Until then, the workload is high enough to make the flight hard work rather than enjoyable. But most pilots with many hours have long forgotten what it is like, hence statements like "you can fly anywhere with purely map reading" (which is technically correct of course).

This is why I think radio navigation should be taught properly within the PPL. This is controversial but nowhere near as controversial (VOR tracking and VOR/VOR position fix are in the syllabus) as a mere mention of GPS.

The trouble is that whenever anyone suggests teaching ANYTHING other than visual navigation, fifty people will weigh in with the old argument that doing so will detract from visual nav skills.....

If you want to get people jumping around, go into a room full of grey-haired PPL instructors and mention "GPS". It is like the abolition of the closed shop.

In the end all this is almost irrelevant, because some 90-95% of fresh PPLs vote with their feet and chuck it all in pretty quickly, and those who fly decent journeys almost without exception use GPS and VOR/DME and don't spent much time posting in this forum :O

And go charging through controlled airspace with their noses firmly glued to a tiny GPS screen usually relaying data from a long out of date database.

Radio Nav is in the PPL syllabus and its sensible for it to be there.

I just personally won't see it taught until Bloggs has mastered map nav. What people do after their training is up to them - I trust them to be professional about their flying and their abilities.

Well, most of them.

Cheers

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