‘Left downwind’ in a right hand circuit?
 

Hello,

i was asked to join ‘left downwind’ in a right hand circuit the other day. It confused me and I asked the tower to confirm right hand circuit, which they did.

Does ‘left downwind’ just mean, downwind? Does anyone else find this confusing?

Cheers
Matt

'Left downwind' is (slightly) incorrect anyway.
'Downwind' with no further specification implicitly includes the default 'left'
I suppose it was a slip of the tongue by the tower operator.

Bearing in mind that in that case, with the published circuit being right hand, perhaps “Join LEFT HAND, downwind”, with emphasis on the “left hand”, might have been less confusing.

Sorry, agree with the OP, it's confusing to use the word left in any sense when the prevailing circuits are right hand.

Give runway in use, wind speed/direction, QFE and circuit traffic advisory if appropriate.

Agreed. Maybe could have said join dead side

Shy, I think, from the OP, that it was a RH circuit they were to fly so the above would not have been correct on that day. What ATC, confusingly (and in a non-standard way) seemed to mean was "join downwind on the left hand side of the airfield for a right hand cct"!!!!

The CAP used to say (and what should have been said to the OP) was "G-CD, join righthand downwind Rw 27 Ht 1000 ft QFE 1006" which specified a RH cct. It said, in explanation, "When the traffic circuit is a RH pattern it shall be specified. A LH pattern need not be specified although it is essential to do so when the cct direction is variable.." (their bold!).

On related thread creep, best cct ATC ever was many years back when Southampton was GA-friendly and, with a very busy cct one Saturday, a "fly in" by a French aeroclub arrived en masse. Utter chaos ensued with, eventually, the following classic from ATC:-

"All UK traffic, Tower, all orbit your in your current positions - and keep a very good lookout - I'll call you in once they have all landed!!!". After about 5 minutes, a further 5 or 6 planes had plonked themselves onto the runway with no further ATC input and, eventually, the poor ATCO started to sequence us all back round the cct again! :}

It sort of reminded me of a mini-BoB - planes darting in for the numbers from all different directions. Oddly, they all managed to pick the one runway direction which, I believe by pure chance, was actually the active one!!!! :ok:

Assuming it is full ATC (you say Tower and you say you were asked to join left downwind) then I would assume he was clearing you to join downwind for a left hand circuit whilst a right hand circuit was generally in use. There could be many reasons for this, the most obvious being that you were approaching from that direction. It’s not at all unusual, so just read back...”Roger G-xxxx to join left hand downwind”. He will soon correct you if it’s wrong.

I’d agree with this. Normally, they do right turns, but for whatever reason, the ATC needed you to do a left pattern. Quite common at busy training airports in the US.

Yes, this.

It is totally fair and wise of you to ask for clarification/confirmation if you don't understand. Once a tower instruction is clear, follow it. It is a very wise habit to read back the critical element of a clearance. Not necessarily required for VFR flying, but very wise. Because, if by chance, what you read back is what you understood, but not what the controller said, it then becomes the controller's responsibility to sort it out. Read back what you understand to do, then do what you read back.

Seems clear enough to me. He instructed you to join downwind for a left hand circuit, regardless of what hand the rest of the traffic is doing.
So join LH downwind and call it, Tower will pick that up if it wasn't what they'd intended. If still in doubt you might ask if you'll need to extend your downind leg before turning left base.

I had somethign similar in Le Touquet many years ago. Fly out (half a dozen a/c) form my club arriving from the South, several arriving from UK plus the Trislander coming in IFR. Poor guy in Le Touquet sorted out the Trislander then eventually gave up and just told us to get on with it, keep a good lookout and make all the normal positioning calls.

Yes, my understanding was that ATC wanted the OP to join from the left. Nothing wrong with that. ATC are perfectly entitled to control joining traffic - it's their job!

One reason might have been where an aircraft is about to depart and the joining aircraft is on the left side of the runway. Joining for the "correct" right hand downwind would require the joining aircraft to cross the climb out, whereas joining downwind left side wouldn't.

I can't understand why some think this is a big issue.

I agree, but (a) this seems not to be the case here and (b) when they do, it's usually conditional if the other cct has traffic which appears to be what alerted Supermattt in this instance.

If there is no other traffic, right or left does not matter - ATC will tell you and off you go. But, in this case, Supermattt seems to have heard RH cct traffic so questioned ATC who then contradicted what they'd said ("left hand") and confirmed they wanted Sm to actually fly a RH cct. The use of the word "left hand downwind" is not appropriate (according to the CAP) for a RH cct. I think we need Supermattt to clear up our confusion now. :\

I have, on occasions, flown a mixed contra-circuit in the UK, usually to fit in with some "cunning ATCO master plan" or similar and it was always loaded up with "conditionals" and warnings so I'd get something along the lines of (assuming everyone else was on a left hand cct) "C/S, join right hand downwind for 27 right hand circuit, report ready for right Base. You are currently No 2 to the traffic just turning downwind in the left hand circuit. Report when you have that traffic in sight". Usually, once I'd confirmed "visual" the clearance changed to something like "With that traffic in sight, report Final as No 2, you may extend downwind for spacing". As you say 3wheels (and Shy!!), it can save crossing the departure lane to join downwind.

The confusion here seems to be that ATC cleared Sm for "left hand downwind" but wanted Sm to fly a RH cct. We need Supermattt to explain!!

H'n'H,

But you're not in the circuit until you have actually joined the circuit...It seems that he was told to JOIN from the left but then ATC simply confirmed that any subsequent circuit (if flown) was to be flown to the right.

If you flew helicopters, or operated from a larger airport, you would have to become VERY much used to being told to do this sort of thing.

Indeed. I remember a local CAA safety briefing evening some years ago. The Speaker bringing excellent clarity regarding turn directions in the circuit, albeit based on the standard overhead join.

If the circuit is left hand, every future turn you make from entering the overhead to turning final should only be to the left. And conversely for right hand circuits. Obviously circuit orbiting should be an initial turn away from the runway, which flies in the face of this, but the general gist is sound.

...which makes it so highly dangerous and to be avoided at all costs. If baulked in the circuit, the safest procedure (and standard at several airfields) is to continue to fly the circuit at circuit height/altitude until able to have sufficient spacing to approach and land. Next best, but only when it's quiet, is to 'extend downwind' but doing this when there is following traffic means that you wind up with a trail of aircraft behind you, inevitably one will see an opportunity to short-circuit (pun intended) and cut everyone else up.

TOO

If you're at an airfield with ATC as was the OP's case, you need to comply with what they tell you to do. I had one particular incident where I popped out of cloud at 140 kts on the ILS at a busy UK airport (having been cleared to land) only to find a Cessna 152 less than 100 metres ahead and slightly below. I had no option but to overtake him on the left. The pilot had been told to hold on right base, but didn't.

Not confusing at all - it was utter rubbish! You had your wits about you and queried things. You then, I presume, got on with it in the proper way. From the phrasing as you quote it, it doesn't sound like a qualified ATC to me by the way. Remember a qualified controller is never in charge of your aeroplane and never wants to be. So, never let your guard down because we all make mistakes, ATC no less.

Lol! :ok: Maybe I know a just a little more than you give me credit for! But no hard feelings! I've made my case ..... over to others!!

Keep up the good work tho Shy - we may be talking past each other this time but usually you are an "oasis of sanity" on this site! A rare animal indeed! :ok:

Have a good eve! Cheers, H 'n' H

The best and most effective way to create circuit spacing is to slow down as required, which is not difficult, and will allow you to maintain the correct pattern. This is, for all of us, easily achieved and is also just as we do in our car, several times, on the way to the airfield.

Thanks for the compliment - similarly rare on this website! :O

I think what this discussion has brought out is that the radio call that the OP heard was rather ambiguous. If in doubt, clarify with ATC - use the radio!

Thanks for the heads up on TCAS found this description TCAS: Preventing Mid-Air Collisions - AeroSavvy
and how Santa's sleigh is TCAS equipped, with the speed he moves I think he needs PAW, SE2, Flarm
and of course for see and be seen he has Rudolph's red nose.
I see that no GPS is used and only works by giving level changes but no heading changes.
Directional aerial and signal power seem to give location of threat when the TCAS triggers other Transponders
then they talk to each other to decide on actions or if one party has no TCAS what to do.
Seems no outside support needed. PAW does range the same way for mode C & S.

No probs Shy! And could not agree more! Use the radio, follow whats happening around you, if in doubt, shout out and always look out for the hidden traps .... and work together. No-one is infallible (tho some are more accident-prone than others - so Mrs H 'n' H tells me each time I goof up!).

ATC have "saved" me when I've got it wrong. And I've even "saved" ATC when they've set up something that just ain't gonna work!

Teamwork (at every level) is what keeps us all safe! Just a humble observation after 40 years in various fields of Aviation!

As I said, I'll step back - I've bored you all enough!! :ok:

I don’t agree with you there Fl1! Although context is very relevant, it was a perfectly reasonable bit of ATC-ing. The circuit was clearly RH, yet ATC wanted the joiner to position on the LH side for the join. If ATC knew there was unlikely to be any confliction with existing cct traffic turning Final at the same time (or base-leg if it was a square cct), then no issue whatsoever.

Regarding the phraseology, if ATC hadn't used ‘LH’ the the joiner would probably have (incorrectly) assumed they were meant to join RH downwind. Having frequently operated at one particular airfield with a normally RH cct, we have to fly a LH cct (wont bore you with why). We therefore specifically ask to join for “Two-two-left”, not just “Two-two” with the assumption that by not saying “right” it must be left. At another airfield nearby, due to vastly different cct speeds, they operate a mix of left and right-hand ccts for visual traffic - albeit we invariable include “north-side or “south-side” to confirm where we are!

I heard "left traffic" like a billion times...ATC is a priority therefore if they say make left traffic that's what you do

In reply to H Peacock, referring to the OP's original post, the whole point of the post is that "Join left downwind" is ambiguous, how does this convey that the cct is "Clearly RH"?
It is difficult not knowing if there was any prior communication, especially if ATC knew position of plane relative to cct; if you were dealing with a tyro who was on the dead side and understood this to mean join downwind for a LH cct, that's a lot of holes in the cheese lined up.

According to DOC4444:

b) JOIN [(direction of circuit)] (position in circuit) (runway number) [SURFACE] WIND (direction and speed) (units) [TEMPERATURE [MINUS] (number)] QNH (or QFE) (number) [(units)] [TRAFFIC (detail)];

According to DOC9432

4.6.1 Requests for instructions to join the traffic circuit should be made in sufficient time to allow for a planned entry into the circuit taking other traffic into account. When the traffic circuit is in a right-hand pattern this should be specified. A left-hand pattern need not be specified although it may be advisable to do so if there has been a recent change where the circuit direction is variable.

Further:
"G-CD JOIN RIGHT HAND DOWNWIND RUNWAY 34 WIND 330 DEGREES 10 KNOTS QNH 1012"

So to sum it up, DOC444 and 9432 does not seem to consider a published right hand circuit, and how to act in that case.

Reading back instructions as understood whether right or wrong should clear up things pretty fast. I think it is worded confusing as well.

"G-CD REPORT RIGHT HAND DOWNWIND 34 QNH 1012"

Is all that is required, the presumption is always that without a condition/routing being added you fly direct to the point cleared. The surface wind is instant and therefore is passed when the pilot reports "Final". The surface wind may of course be requested at an any time but will still also be passed on the pilot reporting final.

If there is any doubt the controller may transmit: "route direct downwind right hand runway 34, QNH 1012". Whenever a non standard instruction is being passed it is encouraged for the controller to give an explanation "if time permits".

With full ATC, I am not surprised to be told "Join and report left/right downwind/base". I do whatever they say. If unable to see other traffic, I ask ATC for their position. If told to orbit at some position I do so.
With a mix of IFR and VFR traffic, of varying speeds, this is efficient and safe.
Slowing down seems potentially dangerous to me.

If your catching up with the aircraft ahead of you then slow down, this is basic airmanship. How else do you avoid grinding the tail plane off the aircraft ahead or tail chasing them down the final approach. Obviously it will be dangerous to slow down below the aircrafts minimum safe speed. If the circuit is controlled by ATC then the controller will ensure safe separation including sometimes an orbit. Without ATC: orbiting, extending downwind or flying a larger pattern is precarious and should not be encouraged. .

Well arent we a typical bunch of pilots, overcomplicating things with rules and nitpicking on their understanding etc?! 31 posts above, many of which ‘clarifying’ what was said and yet, somehow at loggerheads with each other!! An ATC instruction should not be subject to interpretation but should, instead, be unambiguous and clear. If not, then something is seriously wrong with the message. I have 14,000 hours - including 3000 of which teaching circuits in light aeroplanes - and I would have been confused by that instruction...if it needs this much interpretation, it aint right!!

Hey, Captain Smiffy; it is indeed a funny old game! I recall flying a Bulldog (XX549) from Woodvale to Blackpool back in the 80s. We were given a similar instruction - to report right base for a normally left-hand circuit. Now I was just a stude back then, but when my QFI (Uncle Rod) asked me what ATC meant, I managed to work it out! 🤔.

RPM Max, Mixture Fully Rich, Induction air Cold, Booster. Pump On, Flap - Inter, Harness Tight, Canopy Locked, Brakes Off.

Happy Days!

If I were told to join left downwind, I would join the left downwind. Just saying...

I wonder whether the OP, who is looking for advice and may well be inexperienced or a student, misheard what was said? This is not a criticism.... anybody at that stage could make a genuine mistake.

Talking for controllers outside the UK, and according to ICAO.

The correct phrase is "JOIN (position in circuit)....", nothing else, you could use "CLEARED DIRECT..." or "PROCEED DIRECT..." if you really want to stress it out though, or at least those are words out of normal phraseology. Don't assume anything, a "REPORT (position in circuit)..." is not a clearance per definition and does not relieve the pilot from entering and flying the circuit as properly should. Same goes the other way, I wouldn't assume a pilot enters and flies the circuit correct if I ask him to "REPORT BASE....", some do, some don't... and you learn by observing pilots.

Same with wind, ICAO dictates we give runway in use and wind prior to entering the circuit, it can be given via ATIS though. Most of us probably give it as part of the landing clearance as well, though the requirement is only for significant changes to a previous report.

And technically, the surface wind given by a TWR is not "instant", it's an mean wind direction and speed observation taken over 2 minutes with variations from this mean wind and speed within the last 10 minutes also reported, a gust has to last at least 3 seconds to be included. If the gust is more than 10 knots from the mean, you should be given a minimum and maximum speed instead of the mean speed. Same with variations... So no, you don't get an instant wind, unless you ask for it.

Generally we read the display, which should be set up according to the above.

Though I know it varies region to region, I was trained to distinguish between an ATC instruction and an ATC clearance. A pilot is required to comply with an instruction, unless it is not possible, a clearance is not an instruction, though is usually to reply to the pilot's request, so compliance would be anticipated. So I would expect an instruction to JOIN the left downwind - not optional, infraction if not complied (unless I request a change, which is acknowledged). When I am CLEARED to land, that's not an instruction, I can overshoot if I need to. A variation of that I have received has been LAND TO HOLD SHORT (omitting the word CLEARED), so I expect to be required to actually land and stop prior to the specified point, or, say that I cannot comply (airplane type/winds/skill). My experience has been that a LAND TO HOLD SHORT instruction usually follows agreement that the pilot could comply, and is expedient to the pilot's benefit.

If what I have written above is in conflict with local/regional practice, of course do the local thing, but understand the nuance of an instruction compared to a clearance, in case it makes a difference, or favours your request....

Perhaps it's just me but joining left downwind makes it clear right hand circuits are in operation - even if I arrive inverted.

Ah good 'ole PPRuNers …. Supermattt threw a question in 2 days back and 37 posts later (without his reply to the responses) we are still arguing what he meant or what ATC/FISO should have said/done without any clear idea what the issue is.

Ain't this an object lesson at a number of levels in "If it ain't clear ….. ASK."

Definately, there are always regional or national differences.

You as the pilot always has the final call in the operation of the aircraft, no matter if you get a clearance or an instruction (me as well, fly myself).

No worries, we expect the unexpected, as long as we don't have to take our feet of the desk.