Flying a g-reg aircraft on a French easa licence after transition
 

Hi All,

I have been getting confusing information about this and I would like opinions as to what might happen.

I have a DGAC-issued IASA PPL and fly a G-reg aircraft based in the UK. This has worked fine for several years but it would appear that, after the 31 December, I might not be allowed to fly my own aeroplane. I am horrified. There would be the option of transferring my French-ussued licence to the CAA, but I do not want to give up my rights in 30 or so countries, in exchange for a licence with limited rights. I have even considered changing to the French register but that would have to be completed before the end of the year -- possible but risky! Also, I might not be able to have it maintained in the UK.if it were registered in France... and many more complications!

To further complicate matters, I am thinking of moving to France next year and my medical and annual/ARC are both due in March.

Any information or bright ideas would be more than welcome!

Cheers

John

Many UK pilots have an EASA PPL and a UK PPL. You could try the UK CAA for a UK licence on the basis of your French EASA licence. They might jump at the opportunity to get more money.

Do nothing right now, other than get ratings/medical nicely up to date. As of 1st January, the backstop position assuming no other agreements (as enshrined in Statutory Instrument 2019/645) is that your non-UK EASA compliant licence will be automatically validated on G reg aircraft for up to 2 years, or the first relevant date expiry, whichever is first. This will give you the time to apply for a UK FCL licence from January onwards - that way you retain your non-UK licence as well. Any UK National licence issued at the moment will remain usable on what are currently known as non-EASA types, so probably not much good to you right now.

mapleworth, you have a French ICAO licence which will be valid for flight within the UK whatever happens. I presume your aeroplane has a full C of A (you do not say) and therefore will be able to be transfer to the French register when you move to France whatever happens, should you wish.


It is too early to say what the outcomes will be but there is no need to be too concerned. Subject to ICAO your compliant UK aircraft will be valid for flight throughout the world including easaland - whether it has an EASA stamp or not. Should EASA throw UK Flight Examiners and engineers overboard on the 31 st December is unlikely, we are yet to discover. Once the UK is out of EASA and there is no agreement stipulating otherwise then there will be nothing to stop you retaining you French licence and based on it obtaining a UK PPL in addition.

Thanks folks for the speedy replies. Just to clarify futrther, the aircraft (a Grumman Tiger) has a full C of A, is on an SDMP and I have a class 2 medical vailid until March (and an LAPL medical until March the following year, which would allow me to fly on my PPL reduced to the privileges of an LAPL if ncessary).

Putting the aircraft on the French register after the end of this year would be a lot more difficult than while we are in EASA.. As long as we are in the EASA, it is a (very) administrative process but involves no inspections or regulatory complications... just basically moving the paperwork from one country to another.

Hi Again,

It is still unclear that I, with a French issued IASA PPL, after 1 January 2021, will be allowed to fly my G-reg aircraft
a) in the UK and/or
b) in France

I remember the "bad old days" when, as a French licence holder, I could only fly F-reg aircraft, and it looks as if the UK is heading straight bck to the bad old days!

We own a Tiger on the D reg and have been advised that we can't fly it after 1st Jan with our UK/Easa licenses, so we've started the process of bringing her onto the G.
It was either that or sell it.

Before EASA demands changed things it was always possible to fly privately a UK registered aircraft within the UK airspace on an ICAO licence. The UK was one of the few countries to allow this. Many ICAO countries required some kind of formality. Meantime LastStandards has explained the current position. You have 2 years from 1st January during which you do nothing unless you choose. The whole point of JAR and then into EASA (with a wider agenda) was to validate your licence for use anywhere within euroland. I can't believe that the UK will ever seek to prevent you flying a UK registered aircraft anywhere in the euro world using a French EASA licence.

It is currently a waiting game.unfortunately. Time will tell.

Indeed it would appear to be the case for the CAA to recognize EASA licences for up to 2 years in the UK... BUT, what about EASAland recognizing G-reg aircraft flown on non-British licences? I phoned the DGAC this morning and the charming lady at the "bureau des licences" said that they have no idea.

... and if you exchanged your licence for a German one... surely that would be less of a problem... that is, if you can continue to have it maintained where you do at present (in the UK?)

Why would the French object to a french pilot flying a foreign registered aeroplane that is ICAO compliant? Anyway, the country of registration decides who is entitled to fly the aeroplane. No other country can change that without good reason. That is an established principle.

By transferring your licence to the UK, you would not be losing the right to fly in the EU. You can fly N-reg aeroplanes across the EU with an FAA licence, and will be able to fly G-reg aeroplanes with a UK licence.

What you actually want is the ability to *both* fly G-reg and F/D/OE/EC/whatever EASA aeroplanes.

The best solution in the short term seems to be to get a UK CAA validation of your French EASA PPL. Then organise, once rules for this have been published, a UK PPL, which is additional to your French issued EASA one - it looks like CAA will be very amenable to this, I just don't think they're able to publish a rule for it until we've left EASA, as at the moment all they can legally do is transfer your licence to the UK, which entirely understandably, you don't want to do.

G

Ah, so that is why, for example, an N-reg aircraft can be flown in France by a French pilot, (but that pilot is not allowed to fly that N-reg aircraft outside France). It is because the FAA have decided thus, correct?

On that basis, it would mean that the CAA has the right to limit where a G-reg aircraft can fly and could, for example, like the FAA, say a G-reg aircraft can be flown by a UK licence holder or, in this case, in France if flown by a holder of a French licence. In my case, this would mean I could ONLY fly my plane in France.

Perhaps, in this current situation, the CAA can say that a G-reg aircraft can be flown by any IASA-licence-holder in any IASA country, but I can't find any such statement.

You must have a CofA, licence, and medical issued by the same state.

The UK is a state, the USA is a state, the EU acts like a state and doubtless will eventually become one.

None of this cares about your nationality, only the nationality of the licence, medical and CofA.

I can legally fly an N-reg aeroplane around the world on my FAA licence and medical, or a G-reg aeroplane around the world on my CAA licence and medical. Until the end of this year I can fly an F-reg aeroplane around the world on my UK issued EASA licence and medical, but on January 1st I no longer can, for which reason I'm transferring that one to Ireland - but any other EASA member country would be equally suitable.

There are some relaxations, there are also some countries who have issues over *residency* - not the same as nationality. So it's somewhat difficult for an EU *resident* to own an N-reg aeroplane: you can do it, but workarounds are needed. I suspect that the UK will be pretty relaxed going forwards about EASA aeroplanes being based in the UK and flown by EASA pilots, as it has for years been over American aeroplanes and licences - that has been an EU problem, not a British one.

G

Well, when I said "French", for example, I meant "Issued by France".

Yes, this is the whole problem. Now we all have EU licences, medicals and CofAs. Then along came Brexit and we Brits are going to be excluded/isolated from thes common standards. In my case, I have a french-issued licence, a UK-issued medical and a UK-issued CofA. If necessary I can get a medical done in France instead and even fly with a French instructor every 2 years, but the CofA (registration) is a different kettle of fish! (BTW, the DGAC told me that the registration is not a question of residency but a question of nationality).

So, are you saying that, in your case, you will not be flying G-reg aircraft with your Irish-issued-PPL, or that you will perhaps only be able to fly G-reg aircraft in Ireland?

Perhaps they will be pretty relaxed about EU-regs based in the UK, but there could be a maintenance problem.

Oh why are we doing ourselves such self harm!

mapleworth, Genghis the Engineer has provided a lucid and accurate explanation. The FAA do not grant an approval to a non FAA pilot to fly an 'N' reg aeroplane in a single country (state in formal parlance) only. If you are granted such a right by any state then it applies to the world. No 3rd party country has a say in it.

It is true to say that the licence standards throughout the world are not exactly the same. ICAO only provides for a common minimum and acceptable standard. ICAO doesn't micro manage in the same way as EASA. Many countries add various additional elements to their own issued licences as they do with aircraft certification and the maintenance schedules. Your EASA licence is an ICAO one but with EASA bits and pieces added. The same goes for aircraft certification and the maintenance schedule. That does not affect the rights of a foreign registered aircraft being flown by their approved pilot, who should not be obstructed. A state does have the right to prevent a foreign registered aeroplane from being permanently based. Most will accept such an aircraft to be based for a short period of time whatever it decides. The UK does not set a period that a foreign registered aircraft may remain. That is why you will see so many USA owned and registered aeroplanes based permanently in the UK.

Mapleworth, to put things in a nutshell your spending too much effort in suppositions and then looking for the verifications that it is not possible to find. As for EASA and the UK, the CAA/EASA are not giving any hints to any agreements that may follow after January 1st. Your contact at the DGAC has it all in perspective, the gallic shrug is well placed in all this, be assured.

The hassle of maintaining a foreign license (I presume a German/EU medical required?) wouldn't be worth it for me plus it would present me with a different set of limitations.

Flyingbadge no one can predict what will be after 31st December. Listening to gossip as being fact is very expensive.

What I think you are saying here is not true. The FAA permits a US registered aircraft to be flown by the holder of a non-US licence only in the state that issued that licence. Since the EU is not a state, a French issued EASA licence entitles the holder to fly a US-registered aircraft only in French airspace. If I have misunderstood your statement, I apologise.

Hi Billie, as far as I can see, what you say is absolutely the case. The FAA only permit FAA or DGAC licence holders to fly in France. DGAC licence holders cannot fly an N-reg in the UK for example. If the CAA follow a similar stance about G-reg aircraft, I would ONLY be able to fly my G-reg aircraft in France, but not where I live (in the UK).

This is a pure hypothesis, but scary stuff that a simple statement from the CAA could clear up.

That is why it is revolting that we have to play a potentially disastrous guessing game due to a lack of informtion from the CAA.

I used the word "approved" it would have been better to use the term 'Licenced'. The very pragmatic FAA allows a non FAA licenced pilot to fly an 'N' aeroplane in a particular country that has issued the pilots licence but only as as far that country sees fit. Just the same many countries may not allow it and some may require formal procedures. If you hold a FAA issued licence being the full licence or the "piggy back" licence as it is commonly known, then you are not restricted by borders and are not required to gain special permissions. I was correct in what I described. The same is true flying a 'G' reg aeroplane if you hold a UK licence. If you will want to operate a 'G' reg aeroplane anywhere than obtain a UK licence, simple in my view.

There is a 2 year period from the 1st January in order to resolve licencing issues and we do not know the outcomes, there is no need to guess, just hold onto your hat.

It is not quite as simple as that. If I knew in advance (which would be the decent thing for the UK to do) I would be able to, if necessary, rush through the procedure to put my aircraft on the "F" register... quite a palaver and very important to complete it before 31 December. I would then be free from all this unnecessary UK-related hastle... But you see "holding onto my hat" until it is too late for that option, effectively rules it out!

Flyingbadge

"We own a Tiger on the D reg and have been advised that we can't fly it after 1st Jan with our UK/Easa licenses"

Who advised you of this?

Cheers, Sam.

Hi Sam,
Like everyone else our group has been fielding various opinions over the last year ranging from 'we just don't know' to 'we can't fly a D after 1st jan'.
We found CAA references to the two years grace for Easa license holders to fly the G in the UK, but no CAA reference to UK license holders flying non G....and I believe our maintenance company were of the opinion that as its stands we cannot fly the D after 1 Jan.....this coupled with a CAA inspector on a visit to same company saying that it would be very straightforward to switch our aircraft to the G (no engine overhaul required etc)....so we decided on that as the safest option, even if it proves later on to have been unnecessary.

No, I will fly my G-reg aeroplanes on my UK CPL. I'll use my FAA CPL for flying N-reg aeroplanes, and I'll use my (soon to be Irish) EASA CPL should there be reason to fly EU registered aeroplanes.

Yes, maintaining three licences is a bit of a nuisance, but one I'm personally accepting the need for as I work around the world quite a lot. Somehow I doubt that my EASA licence will be current all the time, I'm basically parking it in Ireland and will revalidate the bits I need when I need them, or often enough to avoid having to re-do anything from scratch. Similarly I use my FAA 61.75 PPL/IR, and only bother getting an FAA medical when I need CPL privileges on that standalone licence and mainly just worry about keeping that IR current.

It's how it is.

G

Since there are so many N-number aircrafts flying in Europe, I guess it would not be an issue to bring your G-registered aircraft to France and keep flying under G.

From the ANO


All UK registered aircraft will be non EASA aircraft after 31 Dec.

I'm in sort of the same boat, but the other way around. I have a UK CAA-issued EASA PPL, but I fly PH (Dutch) registered aircraft only.

I've got a few highly specific questions that hopefully someone on here can answer.
1. Does anybody know if "remaining a member of EASA" is currently pursued/negotiated as part of the Brexit negotiations? Or is that option off the table completely?
2. GtE, you switched your UK EASA license to the Irish. Why the Irish? I'm currently thinking about where I can switch my license to, and I'm sort of spoiled for choice. Any other opinions on which *AA is the best/cheapest/most convenient?
3. If I decide to keep my UK issued PPL, then presumably this automatically becomes a UK National license, valid for G-reg only but ICAO compliant. Based on this license I should be able to get a "validation of a foreign license" in EASA-land. Does anybody have a link or something for that procedure? I can't find it anywhere. In fact, I can't even find whether I have to apply for such a validation with EASA, or with the national authorities.
4. Once my license becomes a UK National license, I assume an instructor/examiner with a non-UK-issued EASA license is no longer able to perform revalidations and such, correct? Or is there an easy way for such an instructor/examiner to become validated by the CAA for these purposes?

1. Remaining a member of EASA is off the table DfT said that back in January.
2. IAA is an English speaking that why many choose them, Dutch NAA is good in English as well.
3. Validation would reuire you to resit Air Law & Human Performance Exams, fulfil the requirements for the class rating, do a PPL Skills Test, demonstrate language proficiency, have an ICAO Class 2 Medical and minimum of 100hours.
4. Interesting one, but the CAA have said they would give a general validation for all EASA licence holders and their ratings. That would include examiners as well.

Same issue
 

Hi John

It seems there is a general validation on the CAA website but it says it is only valid outsidue UK airspace! Is this correct?

So can we or can't we?
 

Brexit is such a headache, and leaving EASA is/was just totally unnecessary: we all have fewer rights than before and have gained nothing!

I too have a DGAC issued EASA PPL and fly both a G reg (when in England) and F reg aircraft.

I have tried to follow the thread above, but does anyone actually have a similar case/experience flying a G reg aircraft since 1st January this year with a (non CAA) EASA licence?

This whole thing is madness; it was so easy before!

You may fly a G-registered aircraft with a (non-UK) EASA licence up until 31 December 2022. After that you will require either a UK licence or a validation of your EASA Licence.

I have a UK FCL PPL SEP EASA license, which is now by default a UK FCL SEP PPL since the UK is classified as a " Third World Country ".

I am fully resident in France, which means that I cannot legally fly an EASA registered aircraft - and the above posts have re-confirmed that I need to re-sit a Skills Test / and re-take the Air Law and Human Factors written exams here in France if I apply for an EASA License with DGAC.

I have looked at the prospect of applying to Malta for an EASA License ( alternatives are Ireland / Switzerland ), and I find the whole process is just absurd.

So my question is this - will the UK CAA accept an application for an FCL PPL SEP from an EASA License holder without the need to re-take the Skills Test / Air Law and Human Factors exams, if the answer to the question is yes then surely it should reciprocal across the EU for a UK License Holder.

Really, surely?

In your situation, a SOLI transfer to France would have been appropriate. Why didn't you do it?

You can moan about the politics and the absurdity, but there was a process open to you which would have solved your problem before it became a problem. Your complaint now is with EASA, as you are resident in EASA land and want to fly there.

I have flown a G reg using a (non CAA) EASA licence since 1st Jan. I found it to be similar to last year, the licence was in my flying bag on the back seat and I operated the controls and wireless in the same way as before. Can't say it felt any different.

You've missed a previous post whereby I've already stated that I missed the SOLI transfer point, and that it was entirely my fault - so the politics of the situation is irrelevant.

The question I raised in this thread remains :

" So my question is this - will the UK CAA accept an application for an FCL PPL SEP from an EASA License holder without the need to re-take the Skills Test / Air Law and Human Factors exams, if the answer to the question is yes then surely it should reciprocal across the EU for a UK License Holder. "

I don't believe it is reciprocal across Europe. That's an EASA decision and "fairness" isn't a criteria.

What did you expect? Both sides were playing political hardball with BREXIT and the only reason the CAA is recognising European things, is the two year transition period written into UK law, where all EU law was adopted on the day of exit, until it is repealed.

In short, an EASA licence must retain it's status in UK law until the end of 2022, not because the CAA are being nice, but because the law says so. The European Union don't have an equivalent law, to them, everything British from 01/01/21 is simply foreign.