He moved the throttle while you were landing? Where was your hand?? Was it on the throttle and he grabbed your hand?

I took my first lesson with this guy (Not mentioning his name) and even then I was able to manage the pattern, then on the final approach he didn't request control...He slapped my hand!
I lost my second instructor to the airlines and my third instructor got into the flow with me and it went fast, fun and easy.
As an aside I didn't go to ground school for PPL and CPL because I was signed off to take both of exams by instructor number 2.
Anyway back instructor 1,on his landing he kept shifting between full power and Idle and he bounced down the runway...so this guy seemed to be not only a bad instructor but a bad pilot. Or maybe he was just trying to scare me, it obviously didn't work.

My hand was on the throttle and he grabbed my hand.

I once flew with the CFI of a local club on a check ride in the clubs C172. I am an experienced pilot and have worked professionally within the aviation industry however this "check ride" was no more than the CFI showing off at my expense!

Needless to say, I refused to fly with him again.

Control grabbers are an even worse menace in a tandem. Many years ago I had a bad experience with an instructor in a PA18 on floats. He had a habit of grabbing the controls, starting a turn, then releasing them without any kind of handover of control. The first time it led to real confusion about who was in control. Between flights, I told him in no uncertain terms if he did that again, I would walk away, course unfinished. It did not result in a personality change, and he continued to think he was God's gift to aviation, but at least the control grabbing stopped.

During my IR phase I flew with a guy who would tell you to pitch down (I was a bit high during a practice ILS), and seconds later he would shove his yoke forward when he felt that my response didtn't come quickly enough. It always managed to destabilise my approach, and I felt I never got the opportunity to learn. If my responses were too slow (they may well have been), it would have been better to let me figure that out for myself. I later managed to ditch this instructor, but not before he put a real dent in my self confidence. After the switch to a different instructor, I was back on track after two flights fortunately.

There is a big difference between assisting a student, for example by adjusting the pitch attitude gently while clearly taking over control and explaining what you're doing and why, and bashing your hand against the center of the yoke while yelling in the student's ear.

The instructor should have said what they were doing and why, otherwise there is no actual instruction...

If they were signing off on a check ride and had any doubts, they should have stated them clearly.

Otherwise, they aren't doing anyone any favors, not their employer, not the potential customer.

Instructor or no instructor, don’t touch anything without telling me.

If you put your hand on mine, whilst it’s on the throttle, I may remove it aggressively .

Having said that some people just stay nervous - I know a captain of a large aircraft that makes his own “ idle “ by covering the lowest 2” of the quadrant to stop his colleague going to idle before he’s ready .

That was my very strong instinct. But I decided it may not be wise to be fighting over the throttle 15 seconds from touch down, so I just dealt with the consequences of his throttle changes.

Anyway, I am now flying a C172 in a stunningly beautiful area, with virtually no other traffic and fantastic weather. So worth the pain.

Any pics DB? Where abouts are you flying?

I had 3 different instructors during my brief gliding career - the guy who flew me on my trial flight who at that time wasn't yet a fully qualified instructor, a senior bank employee and a fast jet/test/airline pilot. Guess which one continually took back control...

I'm flying again tomorrow, I will try to take some pics, then we can play guess where I am!

Anyone putting their hand on mine without prior consent (which may be implicit, in certain situations :) ) take a grave risk of getting slabbed in their face.

I would pay money to watch someone attempt to bully some of my old students , some of them had very particular skills ; skills acquired over very long careers . Skills that would be a nightmare for any bully :)

Imagine your reaction if your car passenger leant over and switched the headlights or wipers on or off. Or adjusted the radio volume without asking.

Indeed, I used to drive with a passenger who quite regularly did that. His favourite trick was to flick the windscreen wipers on - for some strange reason it must have appealed to his warped sense of humour.

Then again, he was my favourite miniature poodle .....

My instructor (13 years and 600 hours ago) acted mostly as a safety pilot while I was experimenting and learning. Very relaxed.
I've also had the experience, as a passenger with a not very current pic, of pushing the stick when we were on the verge of stalling at low altitude.

Yes precisely. Mine once said "I sit by, and act as little as I need. As soon as I don't feel compelled to act at all during 3 consecutive circuits, I'll send you solo." Things worked out a bit differently, but this chap did push me on the way to my never-forgotten first solo.

Takes all sorts ,
The worst were some of the commercial / FIC instructors I had....clearly for reasons of personality they weren’t ever going to become jet pilots of any variety , and were in some cases bitter and nasty. They are lucky they met the 20 something version of me and not the current one.

And what the hell was up with swanning around with four stripes ? I believe if you have never commanded a commercial aircraft it’s not a valid thing to wear .

Thread drift, though yes, I agree. Four stripes, like "Doctor", or "P Eng" should be respected from being earned, and granted by peers.

As to the topic at hand, if the instructor (and I'm guilty of this) has waited too long before counseling, and then requiring, the candidate to correct, that's not the all candidate's fault. The instructor has to own that, probably with an apology after the "taking control" without a briefing.

JT that was a classic! :}

So I‘ve had instructors before who tried to assist me with nudging the stick. Particularly in my early days of gliding, when learning to center a thermal. Whether this is good practice or bad practice ... I‘ve found that to be ineffective with me. The audio channel would be much more effective - at least to me.
So my question the audience is:
Is this a personal thing, that I am sort of insensitive of learning by feeling the control inputs of another person?
Or is it generally useless to do so?

Me too. I found that for me not only is it intensely annoying, it is also useless from a teaching point of view. I cannot tell you if he thought I was high/low, fast/slow when he intervened on the throttle, so zero learning took place.

Same for me. And if no audio available, then pointing a finger can be just as effective.

There seem to be two schools of thought on that. I've heard opinion that you should never point, but I find that often students shut down their hearing and I refuse to shout. Just pointing at the altimeter or airspeed can produce better results.

TOO

Early in my training, during a go-around, I went to raise the flaps too soon. The instructor said 'wait', then touched the VSI and said 'positive rate', touched the ASI and said '60 kn, now you can raise the flaps'. I found that touching of the dials very effective in fixing the message in my head.

I had the immense displeasure experience of flying with a PPL instructor that abused, ridiculed and swore at the student even before line up! In the air is was non stop. A total psychopath! But so many thought his arse was made of gold. It made me puke! This should have been the subject of many CRM courses. Anyway, when I eventually broached the subject with him he offered to go outside for a punch-up! At that point the flying club had lost me and I went elsewhere. That was 35 years ago. This maniac is still instructing!!! How??? But that was at least the beginning and end of his career. If you are in the south of UK you probably know him? He is infamous!
I went on to a commercial career flying jet command all over the world.
There are all sorts in this business but dear God I hope never to meet his kind again. He should have been killed at birth!

There are all sorts around, yes, Still, if you feel you are above some - quite literally, here - then there are more gentle expressions available. Often, these are more effective, especially if one wants to illustrate superiority.

And by the way, please leave your deity/deities out - we're talking private flying here, normally not even extending into stratosphere, much less beyond.

Its such a headache dealing with a horrible instructor :ugh:
on the other hand - "talk to me goose" is an adaptive statement, can i borrow it hahaha

I was taught early in my career ... "There's one in every bunch of twelve" It's true for any walk of life I've found :(

And when the 1 student in 12 meets the 1 instructor in 12 (which I reckon will happen in 0.7% of such pairings), you have a real disaster on your hands.

One of the lessons I took onboard during my training is that calm is just as infectious as panic. I flew with both nervous and bomb proof instructors, and I figured out later on who I'd much rather fly with. I flew with a nervous instructor just after my first solo so knowing for certainty I was capable of flying the aircraft meant I felt better about my flying, but I note from my logbook I didn't get much solo time after flying dual with them.
The story about a bomb proof instructor (a former Ag pilot) was one day we were doing circuit training at a small country airstrip, I'd landed long and had my eyes inside the cockpit fumbling for the flap lever. He nonchalantly looked over at me and drawled in a calm matter of fact tone, "Flyinkiwi, if you don't go around right now we are going to go through the fence." He certainly got my attention back to where it should have been all along!

A few calm, well placed words will be much more usefully memorable, than any kind of panicked behaviour. The calm, well placed words can also teach that even in impending danger, the calm action will work out best, so do it that way....

I did my PPL in the mid 60s, all the instructors were horrible, shouty, pimply, halitosis and no interest except for a log book entry. Never a briefing or debriefing. worse was the office staff who let you stand at the counter while they had a chat. That was and still is the RVAC.

It seems clear that "Aust", wherever that may be, is (or at least "was") not a good place to (learn to) be a private pilot. How sad to have to live there ;( Could you get over it?

Jan,
Check this out:


We Brits refer to it as 'down under'. Discovered by the Dutch (your neighbours) in 1606..

TOO

I also learnt to fly in Australia in the mid-60s, at Geelong, and fondly recall all of my instructors especially the CFI, Aub Coote, who later taught me aerobatics. I did some flying with Roy Goon when he was at the Royal Victorian Aero Club (RVAC), top guy as were other instructors I knew there. Every time I entered RVAC over the years until earlier this year I'd either go to the counter where Helen or one of the others would look after me promptly OR I would sit down/stand around waiting for the person expecting me. I understand the problem as I have been ignored at shop counters on too many occasions - I never return.

Of course, I have encountered quite a few instructors over the years that I would never recommend to anyone. A small number I would classify as "horrible", unfortunately some are still around, occasionally changing flight schools - I know of a few examples where they have been told to move on. I advise potential students to "interview" instructors before choosing a school to learn at and they should get to choose the instructor.

I though 'Aust' was on the opposite bank of the River Severn to Beachley Head?

for those who don't remember that old ferry! Filmed shortly before the Severn Bridge opened in 1966.

Nice Mark 1 Cortina. In '65 mine here in Blighty was a 1963 C reg model with powerful 1198 eager cc's up front.
Australia, Mascot airfield, used to be Sydney's main airport & where in '69 my PPL began with C150 plus a correspondence course. l still have it for reference!

Both there and home here at Shoreham l found learning with the mix of different instructors available on the day was quite enjoyable and productive.
Perhaps l was lucky ?

[[ FULLY-OFF-TOPIC WARNING ]]
The only right place for small dogs and other mammifers is on a spit over a slow fire, barbecue or not. Best of all if you can first marinade them for a night or two, in red wine, vinegar, bit of oil, carrots, garlic, onions, &c &c

Perhaps not the worst option for certain instructors, either [to remain on topic, even if slightly]

Jan Olieslaggers , what a horrible thing to post.

Poodles are, in fact, some of the most loyal, loving and intelligent little dogs there are.

As for instructors, it would appear that there are some who should never be allowed near an ATO/DTO.

Happily this thread has drifted nicely!

Meanwhile I have done a bit of flying in their a/c and plan a lot more. The flying is fantastic. Wx and scenery are amazing. I am often the only a/c on any given frequency, so I get undivided attention from friendly and helpful ATCs - even though I sometimes have to wake them from a siesta.

As promised, here are some pictures to warm-up you folk in a grey autumnal UK. A virtual beer to anyone who can identify the location(s)

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/fc/fd/LvvvHSpB_t.jpg https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/41/94/u1o41ue6_t.jpg https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/33/9f/EsqI4Mc2_t.jpg https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/c0/c3/NPJGYGsV_t.jpg https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/11/5b/CFKfH8gG_t.jpg https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/9a/69/1IUpGDo6_t.jpg


I can't seem to make thumbnails that link to full size images. You can get to the the pictures here: https://imgbox.com/LvvvHSpB



One thing that really strikes me is how incredibly stable the a/c is while over the sea. Especially on a hot day, I am used to very bumpy air. But over the sea it is rock steady; I can trim it and not touch anything for minutes on end. There is always a 10-15Kn breeze blowing from the ocean, that makes for some interesting effects on land with powerful up and down drafts around hills, and general bumpiness over any features, but over the sea it's perfectly calm.