Horrible instructor!
 

I flew with 3 different instructors as I worked towards my PPL. I occasionally grumbled a bit, but now I realize how good they were!


I recently wanted to hire a 172 to get some hours in a new area. Of course the school from whom I hired it wanted to check me out, and I also wanted to initially fly with someone familiar with local procedures. But the-check out instructor was a truly horrible experience. There were many examples of annoying/bad behaviour - during a touch and go, I looked down and find he has put 10deg flap in after I raised them, he fiddles with the transponder between alt-stby and switches lights without telling me, several times he reached over and prodded/pulled the throttle while I was landing. When I stopped clear of the rwy to do after landing checks he yells at me to move onto the apron.

I am no sky god, and my flying may not be perfect, but somehow no instructor evert found it necessary at any time in my PPL training to interfere with the controls like this to prevent a disaster, but this joker was fiddling every 5 minutes.

Altogether a nasty experience.

I am not sure why I am posting this, I guess the advice would be to tell him to **** off which I did not do. The trouble is there is nowhere else to go to hire a 172.

The reason you're posting this is so that we can confirm that it is not you who's causing the problem. Sometimes you find these fine examples of how not to instruct.

The upside seems to be that you can now move forward and hire their C172.

No one should ever touch the controls without telling you. Doesn’t matter if it’s a day one student, all you have to do is say it have control’. It’s just dangerous, if he’s put flaps out without telling you that is asking for an over speed!

Sounds like a miserable bloke with a bag of chips on his shoulder, ignore him and enjoy their aeroplanes.

I suggest that if, during a checkout, the instructor touches any control, that he/she has done so as understood by both of you in a briefing prior to the flight. If you are flying the plane, you should be flying as though you are carrying a non pilot passenger - why would you let them touch anything? As long as there is no life threatening error, the instructor should not touch a thing.

Yes, I've had a few check rides with instructors who obviously did not know the plane as well as I did. Indeed, there had been a few times I have been asked by the check pilot how I did something I'd just done! I've had check pilots who did not know the systems which were less common, and whose handling techniques did not demonstrate care for the plane.

I advise that any "co" flight, where you are flying in the company of another pilot who might think they want to fly at some point along the way requires a preflight briefing. If the pilot not flying wants to help/tweak/adjust, they should ask you permission first. If they want to take control they have control, and you may as well go home then, the checkout is over.

Many times I've had to flight test a plane, and a "company pilot" has accompanied me. After a few imperfect events, I learned the vital need for understanding who would do what, and what could trigger a change in that. My preflight briefing would include: "I will continue to fly the plane no matter what, so you will not need to ever take control. If you wish to take control, say so, and I will transfer control to you fully. But, if you take control, the reason for the test flight has failed, and we're going home.". Which the check pilot should interpret to mean that I would not sign the flight out as having been accomplished, and it would have to be redone. Once, a company pilot complained about how I was flying the plane for the flight test. The boss politely sent him home, I was added to the insurance, and finished the flying myself. Since I have given good briefings, I have never had a cockpit conflict of misunderstanding.

If you're renting, you're proposing to be PIC, so, practice early! You'd tell a passenger not to touch things, so tell the instructor! Doing it preflight sets a professional tone for the flight.

Just get over it. You got signed off, that's the important thing. You'll see many examples of people who might be awesome pilots themselves but they can't teach others what they know. You'll also see some examples of people who are instructing not because that's what they genuinely want to do or because they need the hours, but simply because they have the wrong personality type which consistently prevents them from passing the assessment for any decent operator. And the latter can be frustrating AF - and this frustration is often vented upon the students. There was nothing personal against you in the fact that some random bloke was obviously in the wrong place. So, forget about that one flight and enjoy all the coming ones (and I'm sure that you will, the good old C172 is awesome for sightseeing trips).

As you go through your flying career, you will likely decide to fire (as in never fly with again) the odd instructor.

Much of it will be due to personality mismatch and/or poor communication.

I remember leaving a flying school during my initial PPL training as I was no longer prepared to pay good money to be sworn at and abused. I thought it must have been my incompetence but managed to gain my PPL followed by a CPL and eventually an ATPL which lapsed this year after I reached the ripe old age of 65. I spent many years as a TRE/ IRE with a regional airline. In my experience, with very few exceptions, the best airmen are the nicest to fly with as they have nothing to prove and the nasty ones are actually quite insecure and make themselves feel a bit better by bullying their students. Incidentally, the guy who gave me all the grief couldn't progress beyond piston twins and gave up flying whereas I ended my career on 737s, which made me chuckle!

I've had many horrible instructors. I think your were not particularly unlucky with that flight, you probably have been quite lucky to have good instructors in the first place.

As long as you fly for pleasure, change school if it's about learning new skills, and let the clown make his show if it's a checkout flight.

When you make it your trade to fly, an horrible instructor is another story.

There is no excuse or reason, for an instructor to be horrible to their students.

Nor should they operate controls when they - the instructor - is supposed to be Pilot Monitoring or Instructor Testing - unless there is an emergency, in which case they should state "I have control".

I flew 2 crew airline operations with an ex Jaguar pilot, (single seat fast jet), and he was a bit like your guy.

After he had fiddled with my settings and selections a few times during one flight, I called him on it. "why are you doing that? I thought I was pilot flying". He immediately apologised and told me to call him out if he ever did it again. It was largely habit from his previous flying.

You don't have to be cross or shout or argue. Just say "I am confused that you are making selections without me asking, because I thought I was the pilot flying". Depending on his answer, you can either carry on, or say "you have control, and I am terminating this check ride".

You are effectively paying their wages, so you don't have to put up with their bad behaviour.

If you do not give me a good passenger briefing before the flight . I will not let you start the engine For a club checkout.
if you omit to tell me not to touch anything in the briefing I will make you cry before the check out is complete , I might even threaten to light a large Cuban cigar that has been in my flight bag for that gag since 1989 , if you forget to tell me not to smoke . Nothing says I cannot have fun while teaching :)
I can also play dumb FO to captains getting upgraded that do not treat FOs as part of the crew .

Make sure your Passenger briefing is thorough , in an emergency they will look to you for help and not panic because you will have demonstrated your knowledge of the aircraft and they will trust the person who takes the time to tell before the flight everything they need to know to enjoy the flight.
Companies have SOPs for briefings . A private pilot can make it fun ,if the pax know they can trust you because you care enough to make sure they know how to use the seat belts , stow bags , no smoking ,how to unlock the doors and get out in an emergency, where the emergency equipment is Located ELT, survival kit , first aid kit ,, phones on airplane mode to save your phone battery , do not touch any controls or switches unless I ask you to , and very important if you see anything you think I should know about please speak up . Weather is forecast to be good for the whole flight , and we have enough fuel . Any questions ? And do not use the ejector seats as the parachutes have been sent out for re-packing :)

Take the time to look after your passengers , if anything bad was to happen, your future self will thank you .

I always dreamt of becoming an airline pilot. And went to the BEA/BOAC training school at Hamble. After initial ground school, I was assigned a horrible instructor. He shouted, he scared me (I was 18), and I gave up after 8 months. My dream never died. After a good first career and a marriage/divorce to a horrible woman (I chose her, and was not assigned), I re-started flight training at age 41. Bingo!
I scored a horrible instructor at Oxford for my CPL/IR. He shouted, yelled and screamed. This time, after many hours on the PA-28 and PA-34, I finally elected to change instructor, with some trepidation. Eurekah! I ended up with a quiet and clever chap, (ex-fast jets btw), and went on to pass, and then make a good living as a professional pilot, flying until 65 on Sheds, F-27's, A320/321's and A330's. I rarely encountered any such horrible people in the subsequent aviation world, perhaps one or two oldies at bmi though. I learnt not to accept a raised voice from a Captain, nor accept over-displayed frustration from any IRE/TRE's.
I remained polite, but firm. And enquired as to what was the problem. Flying is not an easy profession, far from it. And teaching flying is a skill that needs patience and ability. Shouters have no place in flight training. (Should a trainee/colleague be about to endanger yourself/themself/others, a quick and positive "I have control" is what is required from the instructor, with a full de-brief after recovery action and completion of the flight).
Just be reasonable with your instructor, and advise them if they are inhibiting you. And then just try to do your best.

I've generally been very lucky with my instructors - mostly high time and therefore confident in their ability to save anything the student does wrong. One of them, who used to run his school/FBO, said that if a potential instructor touched anything on a checkout flight when they weren't supposed to, it was an instant non-hire.

Where I have had a problem is with low time helicopter instructors, who I find are constantly interfering with the controls. I just put up with it, since I only fly them occasionally to stay more-or-less current. And I understand it, because you would never catch ME being a CFI-H! Too easy for your students to kill you.

With the guy you describe, I would have said something along the lines PilotDAR describes. Also, if you keep your own hand on the throttle (good idea during takeoff/landing anyway) it would make it harder for him.

We’re obviously hearing only one side of the story here.
As a (former) instructor that has probably done a couple of hundred rental checkouts I can tell you there’s more here.
This sounds mostly like a breakdown in communication.
The airplane doesn’t belong to you and neither does it belong to me.
The replacement value of a new C172SP is about $275,000.
Forget about insurance for a moment, that is more then a house for most people.
An older model will go for about what you can buy a used Bentley for.
We have no obligation to rent to you.
We do have the obligation to make sure you are safe to rent.
Maybe he felt you needed 10 degr of flap because of the runway remaining or lack thereof or obstacles in the climb out path.
Maybe he felt like being helpful in turning your landing or taxi lights on as you were entering the runway and you forgot.
Maybe he turned off the nav lights that you mistakenly turned on.
No offenses, if you needed as much “interference” as you said occurred maybe you should not have been signed off for rental.
You soloed a year ago by your own admission a couple of posts back.
We have no idea how much you’ve flown recently (30-60-90-180 days?)
Getting your private pilot license doesn’t mean you’re to stop learning.
You made the right decision in flying with an instructor to familiarize yourself with a new area. Be humble and don’t expect perfection.
Did you bother asking him why he “interfered” so much?
Lot of places make the mistake of letting inexperienced instructors do rental checkouts. Big mistake, the most experienced should do that.
So maybe he was inexperienced and jumping the gun a little.
Maybe he was horrible.
Doubtful.

You've had this experience.

Learn what you can from it and then let it go.

The other person is currently in a bar drinking beer not thinking about it or you.

The person thinking about it and stressing about it is you - not them.

So... learn the lessons, stop stressing and move on.

it's difficult but like the other poster said - you've learned a valuable lesson about human factors and CRM.

Bank it and get on with the rest of your life!

Happy flying and safe landings
OH

Meanwhile in the instructor office:

"I just did a checkout flight with this right muppet I probably shouldn't have signed off. He hadn't bothered to flick through the checklist to see how we do things, I prompted him 3 times and he still was going to take off with the transponder on STBY. He left the landing light on for 45 minutes even after I gently asked if he completed all his after take off checks. I asked for a short field takeoff and he forgot the flaps. He stopped dead on an intersection blocking a 737 taxying out to do his after landing checks...................."

The truth will be somewhere between. I've done plenty of checkouts where the guy/girl has flown like a complete pillock and then been totally offended when I didn't sign the logbook and throw them the keys. I'm sure I've been the "Horrible Instructor" a few times.

The previous couple of posts bring up the issue of clear standards - or lack thereof. If any interference with the controls or anything else happened because the student didn't meet the standards (i.e. acted downright unsafe or potentially unsafe), that should have never been kept quiet about by the instructor. That's what an instructor is for - ensuring that the process of training is not just some formality but a path towards achieving consistently safe performance well within any existing margins and tolerances. If the student is underachieving somewhere, that's never best dealt with by quietly fighting him on the controls and not giving any feedback and guidelines for rectification of the problem.

If anyone has the mindset of "OK, I'll just push this guy through until he's not my problem any longer", they simply shouldn't be instructing. Teaching is one of the greatest responsibilities you can take towards an individual and the society in general - and you shouldn't do it unless you feel a moral responsibility for the end result. Especially whenever an unsatisfactory end result may lead to loss of life.

This.

Though I generally agree with B2N2, I don't agree on these points. None of those three examples are make or break for a safe flight. Yes, perhaps the alternate selection would have been preferable, and a discussion is warranted. But in the mean time, the candidate pilot is either adequately safe or not. If they are adequately safe, and some counseling will make them safer, excellent, counsel in a useful way, without needless task saturation or cockpit confusion.

If an instructor has let things quietly get to the point where an error is now a safety issue, the instructor was not proactive. An example is: When I train amphibian pilots, I will prebrief very specific memory action items to do with landing gear position selection and verbal acknowledgement of the check. I will inform the candidate that I will give them one courtesy verbal reminder - I will not touch the landing gear selector at all. My verbal reminder will not be to select the landing gear, but rather than they failed to observe and state the position, and landing surface. I still will not touch the landing gear selector. When they forget this a second time, as briefed, I still will not select the gear for them, that's teaching them to forget to do and check for themselves, I will call an overshoot at a suitably late stage in the final approach, as I have briefed that I would do. I will select a point on final where an overshoot is safe, and in the case of an engine failure, a safe landing could still be made. but the point is that it's memorable for them - that's how pilot's learn. Muscle memory is built up because the candidate's muscles did it.

If an instructor starts doing things in the cockpit, particularly un noticed, there is no learning for the candidate, but rather confusion. Either they learn that they can forget, 'cause someone else will notice and correct things, or, they will be slow to absorb the seriousness, and develop their own rhythm of do and check.

Sure, we all forget things from time to time. Task saturation does not help. The key is to build a foundation in a candidate so they are less task saturated, to the point that they have the entire plane handled. If a candidate is too task saturated, or otherwise inadequate, then correct, don't sign them off for the rental. If they are adequate with exercise repeat or post flight briefing, then do that. If you, the instructor would like to help, brief that in advance, as an offer to reduce the candidate's task saturation, so they can focus on the primary task. Example: "This looks like a really gusty crosswind landing, Would you like me to select the flaps and xxx as you call them out?".

Hopefully, the instructor is ahead of his/her game well enough to anticipate, and allow for variability of candidate pilot behaviour, to maintain safety, yet prevent even more task saturation and cockpit confusion.

I've had a few pilots who I would not sign out. That always came after multiple briefings, and my offer of assistance in the cockpit to help them focus. They just could not manage the handling or complexity of the airplane. For the few times in my career I've had to take something over (always flying the plane on the whole) I always felt badly, as I realized that I had left things too late to be able to brief the next action so the candidate could learn from what was about to happen. I took over and they stopped learning... they are there, paying to safely learn....

Instructing is one thing. Some 'patter' or prompting and occasional instructor intervention is to be expected.
A competence check is an entirely different thing. Prior to any check there must be a thorough briefing, so that the pilot being checked knows exactly what is expected. Questions from both parties are in order, and need to be completed before flying.
A good check pilot will say very little during flight and do even less. Filtering out which mistakes are acceptable and which are not is the check pilot's responsibility, and normally covered in a thorough de-brief. If the check pilot takes control (other than perhaps to avoid something like an imminent collision) it would be normal to terminate the flight, go home and start again another day after some remedial training.
Being that this was a check merely to assess your competence and acceptability to hire their precious aeroplane, it seems that this instructor was either a bit scared of the machine, or you. If it was you, he should not have signed you out. If it was the aeroplane, under-confident instructors sometimes make unnecessary control inputs, or become 'screaming skulls'. Or he simply had no concept of CRM.

The few times I've flown with children, they sit in the back seat.

No reason in the world for someone to fiddle with the controls unless they say why when your attention should be outside the window, unless this was some sort of IFR training where you're supposed to adapt to changing circumstances.

Fiddling with the transponder?? Were they trying to annoy the local air traffic controllers?

This is not a flight examination it is a rental check out. Your job is to teach and teaching requires communication.
We’re not trying to create astronauts here.

1. May I see your logbook, medical and pilot certificate please?
2. Have you flown out of this area before?
Yes/No, cover local procedures or any changes.
3. Have you flown this make/model before?
Even with the homely C172 there are 20(?)-ish variations over the years. Some with minor, some with major differences.
Cover the differences.
4. The following maneuvers are what we require for a rental checkout. Standards are Private pilot practical test standards. Do you have any questions about how to execute any of these maneuvers? We can practice these maneuvers to proficiency if required.
5. This is the checklist that we use, it may be different from what you are used to because of the make/model/variation that we fly.
6. At the end of this flight we both need to feel comfortable you renting this airplane.
Do you have any questions?


Something like the above.
Complaining on an anonymous forum though is like leaving a bad review online of a business and not giving them the opportunity to correct the perceived issues.

Every flying organisation has these characters whether it is general aviation, military, airlines or corporate. That includes simulator instructors. Smile sweetly and suck it up and you will be fine. Easier said than done you might reply. You cannot reason with them for they have temporary power over you. The dangerous ones are those that come across friendly on the ground then without warning change their personality once they occupy the instructor or check pilot seat. You might win the occasional battle of wits with these types but just remember they can be career busters and you eventually lose the war.
It has been forever thus in aviation. If things become intolerable try to change instructors.

The OP has not identified anyone (and would have been deleted had they), so though a bad review, it applies to the behaviour of an employee, rather than a broad brush of the business. The comments stand on their own to me, and don't really require much context beyond that presented, when discussing them with reference to a 172 checkout. I'm comfortable that we can discuss the experience, and how we feel about the cockpit conduct more as a matter of process and CRM, than a specific instructor's failing.

As a rental pilot, I have personally received similar inadequate service from an instructor at the school. It was a Piper Arrow 3, and I truly thought that the instructor had never flown it, for his lack of understanding of certain systems (landing gear auto extend lockout, for example). I did what I thought was appropriate, based upon the flight manual procedures (which I described to him), locked out the system, took off from a nearly too short for the day runway he'd had me land into, and flew him home. He grumbled a little, and I said: "You can sign me off, and I'll rent the plane, or you can not, and I won't, it is your choice.". He signed me out, and I rented the plane. I hope he went back the the flight manual to familiarize himself with this type. I've had other instructors co fly with me, to the point where I asked who was flying?

On the obverse, today, I was the pilot being familiarized in a turbine helicopter type I have not flown for more than ten years. The instructor briefed me, and we discussed procedures. I invited him to take control whenever he felt he should, as I was not confident on the type, and "take care of" peripheral things with discussion. Our flight went perfectly well, and he only "guarded" the controls when I hovered up to the hangar to land back, nearly apologizing as he did. I reassured him that I was very happy to know that he was close by on the controls. I had never flown with this instructor before, zero tension, lots of mentoring - as it should be.

I feel more confident in the company of a co/mentor pilot who I feel is thinking far enough ahead of what I'm doing, that few things need to be a rush, and at least some discussion is possible before action is taken. When I fly with such pilots, it raises my own standards for being a mentor pilot.

Thanks all, interesting mix of views.

I certainly make no claim to be the perfect pilot. I am a very low hours PPL aware of my limitations, trying to build experience and eager to learn at any opportunity. Of course you only have my point of view here, but I do have the reference of instructors who taught me from day 1, and non of them fiddled and 'co-flew' in such a vague and difficult way.

To respond to a few specifics, my hand was always on the throttle, when he interfered he put his hand, unannounced, on mine and we briefly fought for control! That has never happened to me before, even as a total novice a suggestion to add/remove a bit of power was sufficient. On the transponder - I was always taught to set alt after power checks, as part of pre-takeoff checks - for good reasons. I had checked it was on stby before taxiing out, so I was surprised to see it on alt as I prepared for power checks, I asked if he had set it, he said yes. I said nothing and left it on alt. When I stopped clear of the rwy for after landing checks, I know I was well clear of any other possible traffic - I learned in a very busy airport , much busier and more complex than the airfield we were using for the check-out, so I am very aware of not interfering with others. He was just rushing me by asking me to go straight to apron and shut down. I am sure my mistake here was to not tell him to **** off and let me do my checks. In fact, when I first got to a/c I had found the trim set very nose up, so he had not done a proper after landing check when he arrived.

I am not trying to be defensive and I appreciate the different points of view here. And this was the only check ride I have done since my GFT, so I was not sure what to expect. But regardless of whether I was flying adequately or like a dangerous muppet, I found silent fiddling and unannounced 'co-flying' very difficult. I actually got the impression he was trying to be helpful.

Thank you for the additional information.
Having been on both sides of the fence your initial post tickled my instructor nerves a bit.
One thing that continuously needs to be emphasized and that A LOT OF PILOTS at all levels in the industry do not understand is that there is a major difference between Procedures and Techniques.

Some schools/instructors teach to turn the transponder to ALT (mode C) immediately after start up on the ramp as part of their pre taxi checks.
Some teach prior to entering the active runway as part of pre take off checks.
Some do not turn individual avionics off just teach the use of the avionics master switch and the transponder is always left in AltZ

When operating from a non towered airport none of this matters, it’s all adequate.
Situation changes when you fly from a towered airport where it may he required to taxi with the transponder either ON ( no alt info) or on ALT ( mode C)
This should be on the airport notes.

Long story short:
You may have learned one of the above 5 variations in technique/required procedure and you operating at this particular airport required another.
However it sounds more like a technique issue on the part of the instructor.
Certain techniques are more appropriate then others in certain situations.
Question is whether you did something you shouldn’t have done or vice versa or if it was in the way you did it.
You’ll learn that flying with some is the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard but none of it is intrinsically unsafe or incorrect.
Annoying as f**k though.
But that’s personal.

It’s a shame that there are still a few “stick grabbers” around in these enlightened times. I always thought it demonstrated under confidence in their own ability.

On a lighter note, I remember at the beginning of my flight training, one of my peers was going for his 2nd or 3rd sortie in a single. At about 300’ the instructor announced “fan stop” and closed the throttle, leading the student to push it hard forward again while shouting “what the f*&# do you think you’re doing? trying to kill us!?”, which demonstrates that a proper briefing leads to a better result on average...

This is an important theme. Yes, there are times when something must continue to flow (some [faster] is behind you, or something's going really wrong). Other than that, take the time you need to make your checks and complete your configuration changes. There is little rush. If an instructor feels the need to rush you, that should be briefed: "Yeah, there's a jet behind us, so we won't have excess time, I'd like to help you with xyz to keep things moving.". If you heard an unexpected "bang, quiet" even that is not the time for flying hands in the cockpit, that's when mistakes are made and not noticed. A little time for checks then, while configuring for a glide is just fine.

An instructor might have the experience to rush through, while you would like a little more time. Sometimes we more experienced pilots forget that a newer pilot would like a little more time, and the time is there. I have said, and been told: "I'm feeling a little rushed here.". No problem, I'll slow down, and allow the pace to be that of the newer pilot, as was done for me when I asked. If you're flying the plane, and things are normal, take the time you need. If the instructor is in a rush 'cause he needs to pee, he can either tell you (a briefing), or hold it and allow your pace to prevail. A useful element of briefings will be: "are there any questions?". That is your time to be honest, and may just be the pause needed it the rhythm to allow you to catch up!

In any case, the responsibility of an experienced pilot to an lesser experienced pilot is either to mentor positively, or hush up, unless safety is compromised. If you're feeling needlessly put down or rushed, the instructor/mentor pilot got it wrong. Even candidate pilots who are being a little self important can be handled with grace and pace. When they begin to outfly their skills (which the instructor should certainly be noticing), the instructor can ease into the checkride with a new briefing: "I'm about to simulate and engine failure now...", which in and of itself might be enough to remind the candidate that they had flown themselves into a not so good corner. No need to rush, and it might come to be that the candidate notices and corrects, so the simulated failure isn't needed then after all ('cause it might have been a less safe time).

How's about "I'm in control" vs. "you are in control" ? My instructors always applied these phrases, expecting me to confirm with the reverse. And only the one confirmed by both to be "in control" would touch any control. Simple, effective.

But, as hinted before for the topic starter, I may have been lucky with the instructors I happened to fall in with. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems. They both deserve big kudos from me! (@Martin & @Roger)

Yep! I thought that was standard too!


My instructors also were very professional about repeating callouts eg before turning onto the active, I was encouraged to get into the habit of saying 'approach looks clear' and they would all reply with 'checked'. And calls like airspeed alive, prop clear similarly got a nice positive confirmation from my instructors.

I now know that is not a universal standard!

@B2N2,

Your points are valid, but the manner of the instructor in question - leaning over and making switch selections while not being the pilot flying, is what is wrong here. Imagine your reaction if your car passenger leant over and switched the headlights or wipers on or off. Or adjusted the radio volume without asking.

Some checkers, Captains, TREs get impatient, and/or assume one has forgotten something. A quick example:

My habit when PF on the first flight of the day during normal (jet airline) operations is to start the APU but then wait a minute before selecting APU Bleed on. I then wait another minute before putting the packs on, and continue with my cockpit preparation while this is going on. Some think I have forgotten to make the selections, but I have not forgotten - I am allowing time for the thermal stresses in the APU to reduce before applying load, which extends its working life. And normally, there is no rush to put the packs on instantly.

Talk to me Goose .

Best CRM quote , it opens the communication channels , opens up the conversation . At the risk of being accused of grotesque oversimplification of the usual physcobabble involved with complex interpersonal communications through gender and cultural bias . Talking to the other person is usually a good place to start . What's it doing now ? Why did you do that ?
Is way better than Quoting Still Game:
" Gonnae no , do that "
"How ".
"Gonnae No "
"How"
"Gonnae No "
Still Game is a great comedy drama show but very little use for CRM as the main characters share the same culture and language and are very familiar with each other's habits and communication styles . The comedy is often built upon those subtle miscues that familiarity and expectations create situations . The twists come when the characters behave differently from what you might expect .
Comedy Gold , we all have those moments .

Remember it is about doing What is right , not Who is right .

I normally do not like Top Gun Quotes and banter , but :
"Talk to me Goose "definitely opens the conversation and keeps it friendly and FUN .
​​​​​​Apologies to those unfamiliar with Top Gun :)

"Talk to me Goose"

I like that, I am going to adopt that phrase :ok:

But remember, 'What is sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander'.

One thing we as instructors tend to omit is that
our way is not the only way.

Double- Barrel,

I feel your pain mate.

This is just poor instructional technique. I have flown with plenty of muppets in my private and professional flying career. Obviously, it difficult to challenge people who have much more experience than you, however when safety is compromised you must speak up in a diplomatic way, otherwise accidents will happen.

I loved instructing on light aircraft, and also on jet simulators. On a positive note, flying with clowns like you are describing gives you as an aviator an appreciation of how not to do it and shapes your own development, certainly if you would like to instruct when you have the necessary experience.

Enjoy your flying mate, it is a great past time.

All the best.

Thank you for all the input, very useful for me as a relatively fresh instructor. In my view the occasional FI control input is to be expected, especially during landing training for inexperienced students. Giving club checkouts to older and sometimes more experienced pilots is a totally different story of course. But still, don´t be too relaxed, sometimes you can be in for a nasty surprise, even with experienced airline pilots sitting in front of you.

Eagleflyer,

As an instructor, of course you are going to have to take control, however, it should be made very clear who is flying the aircraft, which of course should be briefed properly prior to flying.

Simply fiddling with the controls, retracting/extended flaps and always butting in, is simply unacceptable. There is a time and a place, usually at a point of low workload, maybe in the shape of a 'hot' debrief, or in the classroom when you are de-briefing the flight.

I wouldn't have any reservation these days about challenging any instructor after the flight about heir conduct in a constructive manner if I thought it was unacceptable.

Sadly, as has been mentioned, you will always get these sorts of individuals in private and professional flying, a lot of time, its people in the instructing role for the wrong reasons or they simply don't have the personal attributes or non technical skill for the job.

All the best.

The hard part of being a new instructor is keeping calm when someone is doing their best to kill you .
i will let someone scare me a little and offer a better way of doing something .
​​​​​​Calmly asking questions on how to improve the situation actively involving the student in fixing any deficiency . Does this look low or high to you ?
Questions must be polite to prevent the students defence mechanisms from interfering with the learning process .
It is not what we say , it is what is heard . If you are not polite asking serious questions , you are only making your job harder . The student will learn if you create a safe and polite respectful environment . Be the pilot everyone else wants to be .
Be the calm voice in the storm . Keep it simple .
Keep it fun . Offer calm solutions .Answer dumb questions as they are an important part of the learning process.
I have had some horrible jobs so anytime I go flying my internal puppy starts wagging its tail , not as fast as when I see the giggle line on Lingerie .
Share that joy , life is short it should be Fun .
​​​​​​If I have done the training on a student I usually never touch the controls again unless I am demonstrating an exercise .
The exception to that was when I had the privilege of taking a string bag pilot out on an air tour for his birthday. He had not flown since WW2 and I let him do the take off , the cruise and landing . I might have helped lower the flaps and radio , but he made me so happy to see the joy he had on his birthday flying .



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I find that those instructors or examiners who shout and bully are compensating for their own problems, be that insecurity in the aircraft or deeper psychological issues.

Sometimes instruction requires the student to be told some unpalatable truths but this is not appropriate in the aircraft , this should be done in the de-briefing room and should not require the instructor to be rude.