Aussie

Glad to hear you feel it is relevant :) irrespective of it being the wrong airfield there were a number of visual clues which in theory should not have let the incident happen.

Chilli - I agree with your reasoning entirely.

From a legal perspective though an ATZ in class G airspace is class G itself if I'm right? In that respect there is no responsibility for the ATCOs to provide any seperation for VFR traffic.

I was always under the impression that you didn't need permission to enter an ATZ in class G airspace, you were just obliged to inform the ATSU of your intentions?

of this i may be wrong - and of course common sense needs to be factored in as well! but strictly speaking i think i'm right?

I think you do need to permission to enter an ATZ - at least at a controlled airfield - maybe you're thinking of MATZ Kirstey?

Strake- you were lucky you had an instructor with you. My all-time worst ( and only bad) experience with ATC happened on my solo cross country. I had been cleared by Approach to join left base, but only passed over to Tower towards the end of it. Tower did not answer any of my calls!
I knew there was another aircraft behind me, I could hear one downwind (it was a right hand circuit) and I could also see another on the runway for departure. Orbiting is out of the question, as is landing, so I did what I thought was right and went round at 1000' to fly a r/h circuit. The first acknowledgment from TWR was a very angry "unknown a/c going round...", as I was about halfway down the length of the runway.
After eventually getting clearance to land I was told to take the third turn off from the runway and by now, tired and flustered, I wasn't sure how many turnoffs I'd passed and asked for confirmation that this was the correct one. More tirade from this very grouchy female and a command to ring ATC from the firestation which was the reporting area. Consequence- my sheet marked as "showed poor airmanship due to poor radio procedure." Her explanation as to what I should have done- changed frequency back to Approach and talked to them again!
Really!! One thing's for certain- no amount of money could ever persuade me to visit this airport (famous for having two towers!) again!!

As this scenario has been bugging me most of yesterday evening at work and this morning, I have done a bit of research and believe the following to be the 'book' answer. I standby for major disagreement.

An air traffic control clearance shall include the following items:

Aircraft identification
Clearance limit
Route
Levels of flight and changes of levels.

A clearance limit is defined as the point to which an aircraft is granted an air traffic control clearance and shall be specified by naming:

(1) an aerodrome
(2) a reporting point, or
(3) a controlled or advisory airspace boundary.

While not mandatory, base leg is a published reporting point in the circuit. Therefore if instructed to 'join base leg' by default this becomes your 'clearance limit'. The AIP then adds, in VMC or IMC, if a pilot is instructed to change frequency to contact another control and fails to make satisfactory two way contact, then the pilot shall revert to the orginal frequency and inform ATC of the situation.

Therefore, by the book, you hold on base leg and go back to approach and tell them you can not get satisfactory two way with the tower.

I don't know if I'm repeating myself but:
I fly at an controlled airport. Sometimes I'm cleared base and final, sometimes I'm cleared base only. I presume, this means there's a difference. Therefore I should not turn final without clearance to do so.
I've flown at another controlled airport where, if it's quiet, the controller will ask you to report BEFORE base, then clear you to base, and ask you to report BEFORE final then clear you to final, then clear you to land. I know he got stroppy with me for turning base without clearance.
I remember an old joke where they say "Final is when you don't have to turn anymore to land."
I still would have difficulty turning final without the appropriate clearance to do so.
Carlito.

Hi Andy,

I'm clear on the MATZ situation. Not sure about ATZs though - certainly not sure at airports with full ATC. I beleve at airports with an AFIS or A/G service then you certainly don't need permission to transit through an ATZ, although the requirement is there to inform the ATSU of your intentions.

As for clearences within a circuit I would say that unless you were only cleared to a specific point then you fly the circuit as normal. If you are asked to report x,y or z then you do just that. Or as soon as is practical if the RTF is busy.

I have had a number of incindences at Shoreham where I cannot get a "downwind" call in until turning finals. Conversly at Southend I frequently get asked to report "when ready to turn left base" this is pretty implicit to me that I shouldn't be turning left base until the TWR is ready for me to do so.

FF

:confused: :confused:
Where do you aviate. Fortunately there are still some airports that mix traffic - I landed behind a DC-10 the other evening.

And last week I maintained 150 kts to 2:5 miles to keep ahead of a 757.

A Citation and PA-28 following each other can hardly be out of place in some patterns!!

The strangest thing I witnessed the other day was a Baron going round behind a powered microlight/hang glider (thingy) that was almost in reverse into a 12kt headwind.

Felt sorry for the guy in the Baron - it was all looking inevitable. That wasn't here, but it was at a field where 757's etc were parked:D :D

I think there's a difference between being cleared to a certain point, versus just being asked to report again at a certain point.

But reading the above, I think I am less sure now what I would do in the case where passed from APPROACH to TWR and getting no response from TWR. Base legs are short, so not much time to decide and then retune back to APPROACH, so how practical is that?

But I would expect that there has been proper coordination between APP and TWR on our behalf if cleared into base leg... how unfair is that story told by Cat.S above!???!?

Q) What airfield has two TWRs? Is this Manchester or somewhere "oop north" that we don't venture too much from "darn sarf" here???

I think you just have to accept that everyone is human - yep, even ATCO's. And they can sometimes make mistakes - but given their workload at times, I think they do a lot better job than I ever could.

I was once cleared to cross the active runway from the south side of the airfield (with two towers? Think about it....:D ) to the northside back to the apron.

I asked if that was behind or in front of the landing Cessna? (It had been cleared to land a minute or so earlier, and was now directly above the numerals coming down said active runway.... ) :eek:

A momentary pause and 'after' was confirmed....

Otherwise could have been a good time to practice quickstops! (That's an 'avoidance turn' in plank-speak...). ;)

As Pilot in Command the final decision to obey ATC rests with you.

As does the consequences....good or bad.

Two towers:eek: we have two but only one is ATC but it confuses many:(
It's such a pity about the potential liability in naming names.....!

Strake couldn't even say where this kicked off. Ummm, somewhere with an App & Twr freq - and an historic jet based at same. Umm.

Aussie A - I know you r :cool: on the R/T, so in answer to you last,

Twr on one box and the App on the other. Or if you have one that flips from standby, its just a nudge of the button:D

Kirstey,

You definitely need clearance to enter an ATZ. If the airfield is AFIS or A/G, strictly speaking you don't need permission to do anything (except on the ground if AFIS). But you would always be expected to ask first.

Rotorhorn,

Has a helicopter landed when it comes to a low hover? That's a really interesting one. I don't know. And if the answer's yes...what about a 10 ft hover, a 20 ft, 200 ft... What about hovering on final (if it's safe)? I suppose I could theoretically have hovered 20 ft from the south side grass, awaiting clearance to land. :eek: :confused: Does anyone know?

Sharpshot

I think you misunderstood me....Mixed traffic - everywhere I fly pretty much is mixed traffic from lights & to heavies.

The point was not about final approach - but where you have two very different types of aircraft flying the SAME circuit pattern as opposed to different circuits.

i.e. Gloucester - Helo cct at 750, fixed wing at 1000, popham has different microlight & light a/c circuits, brize heavies go round at 1500' but lights go round at 1000' - again completely different size of circuit as well....

thus what I was talking about was a situation where you have a citation flying the same size circuit at the same height as a pa28 - it wont happen - the citation needs more space. As for final - well everybody ends up here eventually (I hope!!!) :D

Does that clear it up? sorry for any confusion.

-----------

ATZ is regulated airspace. With ATC you *must* obtain a clearance to enter it. At AFIS or Radio you will find the UK AIP says you do not need a clearance but must have appraised yourself of the traffic situation to the point that you can ensure the flight is safe. Or some such words to that effect.

Hope this helps.

Whirlybird

Apparently ICAO Annex 14 Volume 2 para 3.1.28 (as was on 11/06/2001), defines air taxiing as a helicopter operating in ground effect with a ground speed of less than 20 knots. Therefore I would say you can consider yourself landed if you fulfill this criteria.:)

Aussie A.- it's not Man or LPL, but further north (one tower is a damn big one to the north west of the field!).

I know that, by the book, I should have retuned back to 'Approach', but I was too busy 'aviating' and 'navigating' to take my eyes away from the outside situation and vital instruments, to fiddle with the radio and 'communicate' and by the time I was in a position to give attention to anything other than staying in the air and not bumping into anything, I had established contact with TWR.
To give them their due, ATC was so busy that when it was time for me to go, it took 23 minutes from start up to managing to get a word in edgways to ask for taxi. The shame about the whole episode was that it took the pleasure out of completing my cross country successfully.
Once I was told to line up I found I had to ask for another runway as I was totally blinded by the low sun and by the time I returned to LPL the sun was actually setting and unfortunately I had to land straight into it on 27. Thankfully, I know LPL well and ATC helped with directions. I was saved from having to orbit until the sun had actually gone down, by making my turn onto finals past the centreline, based on ground features only, and luckily this angled aproach gave me visibility of the runway. It was no problem on the flare as the sun was now below the hump in the runway. I'd find this stressful now, but it was not an experience for a learner!

Jeez, you sure had a bad afternoon that day! But a good learning experience too by the sound of it!

My 2cts:

I fly at Livermore, CA which has two parallel runways. If I'm on base and I don't get a clearance to land my choicees would be:

1. Straight on and do something else - not possible as I will cross the centerline of the other runway.

2. Turn downwind (away from the runway) - sets up a conflict with other people on final

3. Turn final and do a go around - the only sane choice. I'd add that I'd also sidestep the runway (away from its parralell neighbour) so I can see it.

theRolfe

A number of people have posed the question - what if there was an aircraft on final?

The answer is that a) the approach controller would have known about the aircraft and given traffic information but more importantly, when on base leg it is imperitive that the pilot looks along the final approach to ensure that there are no aircraft making a longer final approach than them. If there is traffic then you can position the aircraft behind it if required.

Orbits are not legal without ATC clearance...follow the pattern etc. Thus one can never orbit in the circuit at an airfield without ATC i.e. AFISO, A/G etc. What one can do however is leave the circuit and then re-join it in the appropriate manner if required.

There is also no overtaking or undertaking in the circuit thus a citation can easily fly a larger circuit between two PA28s and maintain it's position by not joining final ahead of the first and by the second not turning inside the citation. It's all in the rules of the air.

The 500ft rule does not apply to aircraft taking off or landing. ATC use 400ft when vehicles are on the runway. However if there was a vehicle on the runway and you commenced a missed approach at say 50ft then one could consider the matter of recless operation and endangering property possibly?

That's $.04 !! :)

DFC

Strake

Interesting situation.

I would try to revert to APP and report that 2 way communication had not been properly establised, then ask for further instructions.

If I was too near the final turn, I would turn final, continue the approach, reduce to minimum safe approach speed and make a blind transmission to TWR declaring this - if he was still talking to the other traffic I would contact APP. Given a 2-3 mile final it would probably be all sorted out and a landing clearance issued.

However, if no landing clearance was received by say 200', I would overshoot and keep trying to contact TWR or APP.

These actions would be driven by my need to mitigate risk. It is always arguable which is the best approach, but I'd prefer to avoid penetrating the deadside, as lots of things can be hidden against ground clutter and the scanning area is bigger and I'd resist orbiting on base as it is a chokepoint where other traffic could be following (e.g. non radio if permitted, radio failure etc.)

DFC

Am I reading you right here? AFISO and A/G cannot issue ATC clearances - although AFISO can issue taxi instructions to the runway holding point.