What would/should you do?
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What would/should you do?
A question:
On a recent check-out flight complete with instructor we were re-joining the circuit (VFR) at an "international" airport whilst working the approach frequency. Having been cleared to join base we were instructed to call Tower. TWR responded to our call with "Standby". We continued on long-ish base for 10 secs or so and tried again "Standby" was the response. By now we realised that TWR was talking to an "historic" fast-jet on the ground. TWR was having a "chummy" conversation rather than "clipped instructional" and, whilst we were only coming in on the discussion halfway, it seemed to be about waiting for slots and best time for light-up etc. With the extended centre-line approaching we managed to get a call in again and were told in no uncertain terms to "standby". By now we were approaching the turn for finals. We did not know the number of A/C in the circuit and had not received clearance to continue. So...what would you do now......?
On a recent check-out flight complete with instructor we were re-joining the circuit (VFR) at an "international" airport whilst working the approach frequency. Having been cleared to join base we were instructed to call Tower. TWR responded to our call with "Standby". We continued on long-ish base for 10 secs or so and tried again "Standby" was the response. By now we realised that TWR was talking to an "historic" fast-jet on the ground. TWR was having a "chummy" conversation rather than "clipped instructional" and, whilst we were only coming in on the discussion halfway, it seemed to be about waiting for slots and best time for light-up etc. With the extended centre-line approaching we managed to get a call in again and were told in no uncertain terms to "standby". By now we were approaching the turn for finals. We did not know the number of A/C in the circuit and had not received clearance to continue. So...what would you do now......?
I say there boy
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Did you give a position report in your initial calls to TWR? 'Anytown Tower, G-ABCD joining left base'.... 'Anytown Tower, G-ABCD left base approaching final turn'. That's what I would do.
If that elicited no response, and given that this is Aerodrome Control (since you've said his callsign was tower) I'd fly a normal circuit, turn final and then immediately go around, following the standard circuit applicable to the aerodrome in question as had been applied by Approach's clearance for a base join (so RH if a right base etc.) I'd call going around and then call again downwind and see what he said then.
I'd also be tempted to politely call ATC later just to find out what the hell was going on.
If that elicited no response, and given that this is Aerodrome Control (since you've said his callsign was tower) I'd fly a normal circuit, turn final and then immediately go around, following the standard circuit applicable to the aerodrome in question as had been applied by Approach's clearance for a base join (so RH if a right base etc.) I'd call going around and then call again downwind and see what he said then.
I'd also be tempted to politely call ATC later just to find out what the hell was going on.
Last edited by foghorn; 14th Aug 2002 at 15:54.
Depending upon what you can see around you, either...
(1) Make traffic calls, land normally.
(2) Continue to finals, go-around, announce that you've done so, ask what the problem was on the runway.
I have done both on occasion, (1) generally results in no response at-all so long as your positioning and calls were correct, (2) causes a hell of a fuss if there was no good reason for you to do a go-around.
G
(1) Make traffic calls, land normally.
(2) Continue to finals, go-around, announce that you've done so, ask what the problem was on the runway.
I have done both on occasion, (1) generally results in no response at-all so long as your positioning and calls were correct, (2) causes a hell of a fuss if there was no good reason for you to do a go-around.
G
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You were cleared to base and instructed to call TWR. So you were perfectly entitled to be where you were. In a controlled environment you are only allowed to the limit of your clearance so I would assume you had no right to turn final. I would have called, "ABC, ready to turn final." If told to Standby again: "ABC, request clearance to final". What to do then? Orbit?
What DID you do?
Carlito
What DID you do?
Carlito
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Strake,
I've had something vaguely similar, though not because the tower was busy chatting away, but becuase the frequency was blocked by another excessively long-winded caller telling his life story in a request for flight information.
I had reported downwind and been asked to call final. That time I did much the same as Foghorn suggests, i.e. continued the approach onto final, proceeded down to about 100 feet and since unable to get a word in, and therefore not cleared, I went around and called again downwind. Emergencies apart I'd prefer not to land without a clearance under a full ATC regime where clearance is required - I'd be too worried about the safety of my precious and recently gained licence...
I've had something vaguely similar, though not because the tower was busy chatting away, but becuase the frequency was blocked by another excessively long-winded caller telling his life story in a request for flight information.
I had reported downwind and been asked to call final. That time I did much the same as Foghorn suggests, i.e. continued the approach onto final, proceeded down to about 100 feet and since unable to get a word in, and therefore not cleared, I went around and called again downwind. Emergencies apart I'd prefer not to land without a clearance under a full ATC regime where clearance is required - I'd be too worried about the safety of my precious and recently gained licence...
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Lowtimer, That's OK if you're cleared to base and asked to call final. THerefore you are not cleared to land and you didn't. Excellent.
But in strake's case, he was cleared to base, not final. Surely turning final without clearance is (almost) as bad as landing without clearance. Remember, there are right-of-way piviliges for aircraft on finals!
Carlito
p.s. strake, what did you do, the suspense is killing me!
But in strake's case, he was cleared to base, not final. Surely turning final without clearance is (almost) as bad as landing without clearance. Remember, there are right-of-way piviliges for aircraft on finals!
Carlito
p.s. strake, what did you do, the suspense is killing me!
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You were right in how you flew your pattern, but I would not land without a clearance unless it was an emergency, to have done so could put your license in jepordy.
As for the controller chatting away with another pilot, I might become alittle sarcastic by the time I turned final after being told to standby several times while the controller chews the fat by saying, "If you are not done chatting with the other pilot I'd appreciate a landing clearance before I touch down, then you can finish your conversation."
Mike
As for the controller chatting away with another pilot, I might become alittle sarcastic by the time I turned final after being told to standby several times while the controller chews the fat by saying, "If you are not done chatting with the other pilot I'd appreciate a landing clearance before I touch down, then you can finish your conversation."
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As others have said - on your initial call did you just state your callsign, or did you say that you were joining along with your position.
If the former then it is possible that the ATCO concerned didn't appreciate that you were joining - he may not have been pre-noted by approach (in which case the Approach controller wants a good talking to!). If you did then the Tower controller needs a serious amount of re-training by not prioritising his workload.
As for your actions - fly a normal circuit, do a go-around from it (That should get his attention) and then when he finally clears you to land and you get into the clubhouse a phone call not to the ATCO concerned but to his supervisor / manager. His (in)actions have shown an amazing lack of situational awareness (a pre-requisite of the job) after all and need to be addressed.
CM
If the former then it is possible that the ATCO concerned didn't appreciate that you were joining - he may not have been pre-noted by approach (in which case the Approach controller wants a good talking to!). If you did then the Tower controller needs a serious amount of re-training by not prioritising his workload.
As for your actions - fly a normal circuit, do a go-around from it (That should get his attention) and then when he finally clears you to land and you get into the clubhouse a phone call not to the ATCO concerned but to his supervisor / manager. His (in)actions have shown an amazing lack of situational awareness (a pre-requisite of the job) after all and need to be addressed.
CM
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 15th Aug 2002 at 19:14.
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FWA NATCA - What kind of forum is this to promote sarcasm whilst in a tense predicament?
The interrupted conversation was ongoing, right or wrong, he was told to standby, repeatedly - end of story. There is no room in that situation for ambiguity, sarcasm or continuance through the previous clearance. A go-around could easily have been initiated on base leg with a subsequent telephone call to the control tower to complain or clarify what had happened.
If I were examining a candidate on an RT Test or on a flight test and the suggested sarcasm was used, it would certainly have put his licence in jeopardy.
You, as an Air Traffic Controller, should know better.
I am sure you have heard sarcasm in many forms on the radio, as I have, one thing is common to all those conversations - they go nowhere.
The interrupted conversation was ongoing, right or wrong, he was told to standby, repeatedly - end of story. There is no room in that situation for ambiguity, sarcasm or continuance through the previous clearance. A go-around could easily have been initiated on base leg with a subsequent telephone call to the control tower to complain or clarify what had happened.
If I were examining a candidate on an RT Test or on a flight test and the suggested sarcasm was used, it would certainly have put his licence in jeopardy.
You, as an Air Traffic Controller, should know better.
I am sure you have heard sarcasm in many forms on the radio, as I have, one thing is common to all those conversations - they go nowhere.
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Sorry chaps/chapesses been driving home...
To answer the first questions.....we were cleared to join base and reported that to TWR on initial handover from Approach.
The choices we saw were:
1. Continue and land.
2. Continue and overshoot
3. Continue past the extended centreline onto the deadside and orbit.
5. Say " s*d you you miserable b*****s and go somewhere else!
6. Orbit
Despite the attraction of 5., we decided to do 3.
Reasons:
We presumed deadside was clear because Approach had not
been talking to any overhead joins as we approached.
We knew Right base was (should) be clear because RH circuits were not in operation.
We quickly flipflopped to Approach and told them our intentions before going back to TWR.
Outcome:
As we commenced orbit on RB, TWR (presumably having been shouted at by Approach) cleared us to finals.
We requested a "come to Jesus" meeting after landing but everyone seemed rather busy.
Thoughts:
Most pilots have come up with the various solutions discussed so far but I was interested to see if there was a definitive "right way"
What amazes me, on reflection, is how quickly one has to make the decision. Half the time it takes you to read all this....!
To answer the first questions.....we were cleared to join base and reported that to TWR on initial handover from Approach.
The choices we saw were:
1. Continue and land.
2. Continue and overshoot
3. Continue past the extended centreline onto the deadside and orbit.
5. Say " s*d you you miserable b*****s and go somewhere else!
6. Orbit
Despite the attraction of 5., we decided to do 3.
Reasons:
We presumed deadside was clear because Approach had not
been talking to any overhead joins as we approached.
We knew Right base was (should) be clear because RH circuits were not in operation.
We quickly flipflopped to Approach and told them our intentions before going back to TWR.
Outcome:
As we commenced orbit on RB, TWR (presumably having been shouted at by Approach) cleared us to finals.
We requested a "come to Jesus" meeting after landing but everyone seemed rather busy.
Thoughts:
Most pilots have come up with the various solutions discussed so far but I was interested to see if there was a definitive "right way"
What amazes me, on reflection, is how quickly one has to make the decision. Half the time it takes you to read all this....!
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hihover - I don't think a brief bout of sarcasm is unreasonable in the circumstances. If someone tried to fail me on a checkride for that, I'd probably be writing to the FAA or CAA about it. Obviously, it shouldn't go over the top.
strake - You don't say if the Controller knew you were on baseleg, or if you said that on your radio call. My inclination when told to "standby" again would be "G-XX right base, requests landing clearance". If he said "standby" again, I'd say "G-XX going round" and flip back to Approach.
I thought aircraft in the air had priority over those on the ground? So the vintage paraffin-burner on the ground can wait while you get your landing clearance - it should take only a second or two, after all.
The right way - I doubt there is one. The situation shouldn't occur! Options are to ignore the "standby" and ask for landing clearance, or to flip straight back to Approach and say "Tower isn't responding". Neither will make you any friends, but might get you a result.
strake - You don't say if the Controller knew you were on baseleg, or if you said that on your radio call. My inclination when told to "standby" again would be "G-XX right base, requests landing clearance". If he said "standby" again, I'd say "G-XX going round" and flip back to Approach.
I thought aircraft in the air had priority over those on the ground? So the vintage paraffin-burner on the ground can wait while you get your landing clearance - it should take only a second or two, after all.
The right way - I doubt there is one. The situation shouldn't occur! Options are to ignore the "standby" and ask for landing clearance, or to flip straight back to Approach and say "Tower isn't responding". Neither will make you any friends, but might get you a result.
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strake - sorry, missed that. Yep, what you did wasn't wrong!
I think I'd have made more noise about it when I got back on the ground, but that's optional.
I think I'd have made more noise about it when I got back on the ground, but that's optional.
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Carlito & Strake
I'd love to know what you mean by 'cleared to final'.
If I'm busy on a landline, co-ordinating or getting an airways clearance I would not expect someone on a base leg or downwind to start orbiting just because I hadn't asked him to "report final" straight away. Orbiting should only be by ATC instruction - what if you get someone behind you bearing down on you (that you haven't appreciated is there) and you suddenly turn back into them for no reason other than you're unsure where to go.
The idea behind a circuit is you follow it and everyone else in it, initiating a go-around if need be. You never self initiate an orbit - I've had people do it to me "for spacing" not realising that someone was behind them - I wasn't impressed and they soon found out I wasn't!
CM
I'd love to know what you mean by 'cleared to final'.
If I'm busy on a landline, co-ordinating or getting an airways clearance I would not expect someone on a base leg or downwind to start orbiting just because I hadn't asked him to "report final" straight away. Orbiting should only be by ATC instruction - what if you get someone behind you bearing down on you (that you haven't appreciated is there) and you suddenly turn back into them for no reason other than you're unsure where to go.
The idea behind a circuit is you follow it and everyone else in it, initiating a go-around if need be. You never self initiate an orbit - I've had people do it to me "for spacing" not realising that someone was behind them - I wasn't impressed and they soon found out I wasn't!
CM
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I agree with Chilli Monster. Chucking in an orbit for good measure can sometimes bu**er up a perfectly good sequence and, unless you consider that the safety of your aircraft is compromised..wrong!
Thinking logically you hadn't really been 'Cleared to Base', you'd actually been cleared to rejoin the circuit via base leg. There's no requirement for you to 'Report Base' so the correct course of action should be to turn (and report) final. If no clearance is forthcoming by your commital height, you must go-around.
One other point is the significance of the standard word "Contact...". The CAP413 definition is (without looking) "Establish communications with XXX, you're details have been passed." This means that the TWR controller should have known who, when and where you were and what you were doing. Technically, on this occasion there was no requirement for you to say anything other than "XYZ Tower, G-ABCD" on your initial call.
This is often forgotten. If I had £1 for every call along the lines of "ABC Tower, this is G-WXYZ, with you, at this time, on your frequency 123.45MHz, joining base runway 27, QFE..., Surface wind" etc. I would definitely have retired!!
It's normally the Approach Controller's responsibility to co-ordinate your arrival with Tower and it's unlikey the TWR controller would have approved your direct join without having a rough idea whether or not it would work.
Pity the ATC Unit concerned weren't able to assist you after the event though, hope my twopenneth helps!
Thinking logically you hadn't really been 'Cleared to Base', you'd actually been cleared to rejoin the circuit via base leg. There's no requirement for you to 'Report Base' so the correct course of action should be to turn (and report) final. If no clearance is forthcoming by your commital height, you must go-around.
One other point is the significance of the standard word "Contact...". The CAP413 definition is (without looking) "Establish communications with XXX, you're details have been passed." This means that the TWR controller should have known who, when and where you were and what you were doing. Technically, on this occasion there was no requirement for you to say anything other than "XYZ Tower, G-ABCD" on your initial call.
This is often forgotten. If I had £1 for every call along the lines of "ABC Tower, this is G-WXYZ, with you, at this time, on your frequency 123.45MHz, joining base runway 27, QFE..., Surface wind" etc. I would definitely have retired!!
It's normally the Approach Controller's responsibility to co-ordinate your arrival with Tower and it's unlikey the TWR controller would have approved your direct join without having a rough idea whether or not it would work.
Pity the ATC Unit concerned weren't able to assist you after the event though, hope my twopenneth helps!
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So - taking the questioning one stage further - how do you know they had a deadside?
If this place was an 'international' airport as you describe it the chances are that there would be no laid down circuit direction - they would all be by ATC instruction. (Notwithstanding many places have circuits to only one side, it doesn't stop them joining traffic and using both sides of the circuit).
So - if this is the case your crossing the centreline could have put you in direct conflict with traffic joining the other side if it had been just told to do so by approach - before you switched back to approach to inform them of what you'd done.
Bearing that in mind - option 2 would have been better (but not knowing where the place in question is means that you won't get a definitive answer).
CM
If this place was an 'international' airport as you describe it the chances are that there would be no laid down circuit direction - they would all be by ATC instruction. (Notwithstanding many places have circuits to only one side, it doesn't stop them joining traffic and using both sides of the circuit).
So - if this is the case your crossing the centreline could have put you in direct conflict with traffic joining the other side if it had been just told to do so by approach - before you switched back to approach to inform them of what you'd done.
Bearing that in mind - option 2 would have been better (but not knowing where the place in question is means that you won't get a definitive answer).
CM
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Hi all,
I agree with CM, I've never regarded a circuit as a series of separate clearances, i.e. clear on to d/wind, then clear onto base, and then onto final etc. The clearance is into the circuit. Technically, I think you could just stay in the circuit at ciruit height if you had to. But that'd be dumb...
What I'd do is say hello, i.e "TWR G-ANDY on Left Base for RWY 25" or somesuch, then keep doing my thing. If no clearance or acknowledgment other than "STBY" came my way by, say, 200~300' I'd pointedly announce "G-DY SHORT final", and if still no reponse then, assuming the runway was clear, I'd wait until about flare height then add power and call "G-DY GOING AROUND", then I'd repeat the exercise: next call would be on downwind leg.
If this went on for a REALLY LONG TIME I'd make a PAN call and declare a fuel emergency I suppose, or pi$$ off somewhere else. Unless the radio had gone COMPLETELY silent, in which case I'd've been looking for signal lights, and would've checked my radio still worked on other frequencies
I agree with CM, I've never regarded a circuit as a series of separate clearances, i.e. clear on to d/wind, then clear onto base, and then onto final etc. The clearance is into the circuit. Technically, I think you could just stay in the circuit at ciruit height if you had to. But that'd be dumb...
What I'd do is say hello, i.e "TWR G-ANDY on Left Base for RWY 25" or somesuch, then keep doing my thing. If no clearance or acknowledgment other than "STBY" came my way by, say, 200~300' I'd pointedly announce "G-DY SHORT final", and if still no reponse then, assuming the runway was clear, I'd wait until about flare height then add power and call "G-DY GOING AROUND", then I'd repeat the exercise: next call would be on downwind leg.
If this went on for a REALLY LONG TIME I'd make a PAN call and declare a fuel emergency I suppose, or pi$$ off somewhere else. Unless the radio had gone COMPLETELY silent, in which case I'd've been looking for signal lights, and would've checked my radio still worked on other frequencies