Please advise is it legal to change the seat during the flight in a small plane
 

Is it legal to change the seat in a small plane (e.g PA28 or C172) during the flight?
Front passenger swap seat with the rear passenger. It's within the Center of Gravity Limits.

Thank you for your answer :rolleyes:

Used to swap seats in Twin Coms, 3 up, all the time.
This was during IR training, to enable all the studes to have a go at hacking poor vis approaches. Quite legal and no problem.
Saved time and landing fees !

I used to fly an Islander on surveillance operations. The customer wanted their operative to move from the back seats to the front if they wanted to take photos out of the DV window.

The thought of a 15 stone law enforcement officer falling onto the control column and pushing the nose down towards the ground did not seem like a good idea so it was a NO from me. If any of my colleagues allowed this to happen then more fool them, a risk not worth taking in a small aircraft.

Even in a heavy jet if my colleague is getting out of their seat I will place my hand on the control column and cover the thrust leavers just in case.

May sometimes be stupid, but unlikely to be illegal so long as the aeroplane remains properly controlled by the Captain, and within limits. Just occasionally you do come across an aeroplane where the manuals mandate that the PiC must be in a particular seat, but it's rare.

G

I think the more pertinent question is, is it safe? There are plenty of actions that may be legal, but are unsafe, or more correctly, not justifiable on a risk basis - your job as PIC is to make that determination given the specific set of conditions you're presented with. A hard and fast yes or no to your question is simply not appropriate.

Who would know outside of the aircraft?
In my Army days, on a long night convoy drive in Germany we would change drivers on the move in our 4 ton trucks.

I did it several times in an Antar Tank transport with mojos.

The L3 Academy accident at Lake Harney a couple of years ago was believed have been caused by just this activity I recall

Can it be done? Is it legal? Is it stupid? Three very different questions with three possibly different answers. I have changed seat from front to back and back to front in a PA28 - when solo.

It was my QXC, I was only 17 (this is many, many years ago). I had flown the route previously and had flung my chart onto the passenger seat, content I knew the way and sitting back to enjoy the scenery. As I approached my first stop on the route ATC asked me to report at a named reporting point of which I was unaware. I reached for the chart but it had vanished. After a search it became clear that it had fallen into the rear of the aircraft. I unstrapped and slid between the seats to retrieve it. Sat momentarily in the rear seat I looked up at the very odd view of one of the world's first and least safe pilotless aircraft. With the chart in hand I resumed my place in the captain's seat which I was clearly unsuited for. Being 17 brings with it a feeling of invincibility which is entirely illusory but which we often get away with. If I had got stuck and crashed it would have been my own fault but would have been an interesting one for the AAIB.

So the answers for this scenario are yes, no and f*** yeah. The answers for the original question may differ slightly but in aviation if there is any doubt, there is no doubt. It might be a story to tell in thirty-odd years time or you might never get to tell the story with an AAIB inspector writing it for you. Is that a chance worth taking?

No. The new seat would have to be signed off by maintenance.

On a practical level, it is SO much harder to do in the air than on the ground, with all the right equipment and tools about in the hangar.

". I have changed seat from front to back and back to front in a PA28 - when solo."
And fortunately the autopilot was able to handle the C of G change.

Heard of a couple of guys who went flying in a Super Cub, and came back having changed seats during the flight. I guess they got bored.

@pilotmike: broad grin! Spot on, and wittily yet smilingly worded!

There was a time when swapping seats in flight was regarded as a touch amusing, but as this was on a Tiger Moth I wouldn't advise trying it yourself.

One pilot would leave the front cockpit in flight and cling precariously to the wing struts as he fought the slipstream and stood on the walkway.. He could just lean into the empty cockpit enough to fly the aircraft via the control column. Meanwhile the other pilot would exit his seat and treading the wing walkway on the other side, clinging to everything within reach, ease himself into the vacant seat..The "Wingman" could then ease himself into the rear seat with the aircraft fully under control.

I heard that the advisory height for this seat change was above 1500agl...and yes...do wear parachutes!

It is illegal to move seats as described. ANO 2016 article 70. CAP 393 5th edition March 2019. European law has similar regulation.

Does the Tiger Moth have a walkway accessable from the rear cockpit?

From Regulation (EU) No 965/2012.

Reading between the lines, as long as a qualified flight crew member remains at the controls, other persons would be able to swap seats whenever deemed necessary by the PIC, including the PIC. The ANO 2016 article is applicable to non-EASA aircraft and is more limiting. So it looks like it depends on the aircraft at this point. But perhaps I should have dug a bit deeper.

Wow, stupidity has now sunk to a new level.

Changing seats in flight was a major reason for the wheels-up incident of the Buffalo Airways Canadair CL214 water bomber in Turkey.

Are you seriously asking me why I think its a monumentally stupid idea to change seats in a light aircraft in flight?

No, I am not. But your post was quite broad in its approach, so I was just wondering who you were adressing. As I wrote the post above it, I was curious what I did wrong.

As for changing seats in flight, I fully agree that it is not a smart thing to do, yet there may be circumstances that could make it a needed option. From that point of view I too was curious about the legality of it. I once swapped seats inside a BE76 while airbourne as that was the only option to complete two profchecks without an intermediate landing. It's a long story, but this was the lesser of two evils so everyone concerned was happy that this best suited our needs. We did this while keeping a qualified person at the controls, at altitude, during level flight and generally kept it as safe as we could. Looking back on it, it all worked out allright but this thread did get me wondering. That's all.

You should not be admitting in public to having swapped seats in a light twin during flight to complete an LPC........ As an Examiner I am fully aware the standards required for an LPC and the contents of the test, as are the CAA Examiners that read this forum....... I won't ask how you managed to do the single engine LANDING or the rejected take off.....

I will say it again, swapping seats in a light aircraft in flight is crass stupidity whether you consider there to be a legal loophole or not that permits it.

Question was whether it's legal. Answer is 'yes'.

RTQ!

Really? Show me the law.

I'm not sure whether you were braver swapping seats or posting the story!!

Assuming the OP is asking a serious question - please don't. Just don't. There's enough risk in GA as it is without choosing to add more.

Um.

Rules restrict, so it's not a question of showing where it says that something CAN be done, but a question of showing where it says that something CANNOT be done.

Or, put otherwise: if there is no rule saying you can't, you can...

In your opinion. Probably wise not to post opinion as fact....... I shall ask again, show me proof that it’s legal.

Don't be ridiculous.

Which law makes it illegal for passengers to change seats?

Um. (again)

That's not how the law works (ask a lawyer if you're unsure), and the question is about legality.

Nowhere does it say I'm not allowed to eat bananas, ergo, I'm allowed to eat bananas.

The lawbooks would be infinitely long if they had to list everything you can do (rather than only those you can't).

So the onus is on you, or the regulator, or the policeman or the headmaster...

...to show a breach of rules. If you/they are not able to do so, no rules have been breached and it's legal.

May I question that? I fly on a Belgian sub-icao licence, and know no interpretation other than what Sam (and others) describe. Just like I am always allowed to fly in class G airspace, for the one and only but very good reason that there is no law or rule to restrict access to it.

As an afterthought: you wouldn't have listened to liars à la Farage, would you?

Whilst not a lawyer, I have spent most of the last 20 years in non-UK Europe.

I agree with Jan that it's exactly the same east of the channel - if it's not against the rules it's okay...

Reckless endangerment of an aircraft mean anything? There may not be a law that specifically allows it nor there may be there a law that specifically bans it which was my point. Sam in his usual barrack room lawyer "expert" opinion has stated its legal. He has not shown proof of this, just a louder shout confirming he is correct. I would put forward the counter argument that to do so would be recklessly endangering an aircraft of which their IS a law against.....

Whatever your interpration of the law, I would suggest that to attempt to do so in a alight aircraft is an act of gross stupidity and should something happen that endangered the flight as a result the you would be in pretty hot water. But then some of the posters on this thread live a life sailing close to the wind.......

is a typical stop-gap phrase in legalese. It would take a more than average lawyer to convince a judge of the "endangerment" bit and even much more about the "reckless" bit.

But such is not even the point. The original question was a bit ambiguous on its subject matter (was it about "people on board the plane changing from one seat to another" or about "replacing one piece of seat furniture for another" ? ) but that has been dealt with; the original question was however very clearly "is it legal?" and has been duly answered with "none see any indication of it being illegal". QED. Whether it is a good/wise/defendable practice is quite another discussion, you seem partial to it, and that is entirely up to yourself.

I've been reading this thread with much interest and have found the differing opinions to be mostly entertaining. The "reckless endangerment of an aircraft" is especially interesting.

Here's a little scenario....I regularly fly my little family of three, over to the coast for the weekend...Mrs Bazz and our 11 year old twin girls (Annie and Sarah). Wifey likes to sit in the rear area with a good book but the girls take turns in the RH seat...Annie enjoys the takeoff phase and is almost always strapped in that seat at the beginning of the 2.5 hr flight...Sarah is almost the polar opposite and wants to be upfront for the approach and landing phase. When the time comes for the swap, if conditions are smooth, Annie slides the seat back, unbuckles and they swap seats. The whole process takes about 30 seconds. I concentrate of flying as smoothly as I can, Wifey is on hand to assist either girl as needed and we have never had a problem. We have done this many times and only once have I had to tell them "No, not today", because of some light chop.

If that is reckless endangerment of my C172, then I guess I am guilty!

Done the W&B calculations?

11-year olds are not that heavy, on average, and being twins they might weigh in quite identically. Moreover it all happens quite near the centre of gravity. The W&B sheet needs to be done, of course, but it seems extremely unlikely there could be any kind of difficulty. Of course there are those who like to search for potential causes of trouble, just for the sake of causing/seeking trouble...

Somewhat parallel to the basic discussion, there is no reason to doubt Mr. Bazz did a correct job of flight preparation, including the W&B. Anyone who questions the flight preparation job will either have to offer solid proof, or make a fool of themselves.

W and B is always done prior to every flight we make....along with all the other checks and balances needed when flying precious cargo.

And W&B change due to the shift from front to rear? In my Cessna it makes quite a difference if you change the seat loading.....


It's my job to question flight preparation. It goes with the territory of being an Examiner funnily enough......... ;)
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