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-   -   2018 Light Aircraft Association AGM award vote (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/613447-2018-light-aircraft-association-agm-award-vote.html)

9 lives 8th Oct 2018 12:22


A person who has had their entire life dragged across social media ......
Tracey's entire life has not been dragged across social media!!:ugh: Tracey has vigorously pushed it forward in front of herself at every possible opportunity, and apparently horribly inaccurately at that! Indeed, this very website closed the previous thread discussing her life, and Tracey's recent actions in again seeking publicity have reopened the discussion of her transgressions. The previous thread (now closed) really was discussion for the sake of discussion, THIS thread is more important, as it seems that Tracey's actions in attempting to draw attention to herself could actually do harm to the LAA membership!

If Tracey would like to thought of as a victim in this whole sorry saga, she should honour up, truthfully answer the questions asked of her, apologize for her shameless self promotion, and take a few steps back. Then, I'm certain, her life would be very much less "across social media".

In light of the passionate attention this has drawn, and the implications upon the LAA membership, I hope that word of Tracey's deceptions is spread as far and wide across social media, as she has enabled! That way, members will have a fair opportunity to consider the relevant information before they vote!

Though Sam Rutherford's information is very enlightening, I find Steve Tayor's information to be most useful in confirming my belief's of Tracey's prevarication. Not only because Steve has provided the information, but because it is not the first time this background information has been presented. These historic details fill in blanks very well, and confirm an overall trend of lies pushed out into the social media by Tracey!

Sam Rutherford 8th Oct 2018 12:25

@Nick

This is something we agree on, Tracey has duped an awful lot of people. Bit tough calling them 'sacrificial sheep', but if that's how you want to describe them then that's your right.

For facts, do please remember that I have been involved since 2011, and was on the Africa trip - I have something of an insight to how it 'went down'.

Nige321 8th Oct 2018 12:28


Originally Posted by ShortfinalFred (Post 10268704)
Au contraire Mister Rutherford, it is you that has initiated and sustained this affair and you do protest too much, methinks - it can be alleged that you appear to have motives that transcend the 'search for truth' and that there is much more to this than meets the eye. It is alleged that you have, I am reliably informed, lobbied people with the most intense, ad hominem personal attacks if they do not accede to everything you want, and you have, it seems to me, sustained this thing far beyond what is reasonable, such that is has descended into a level of personal vilification that I am sure I am not alone in being uncomfortable with.

If you care to actually read the other thread you will find that it isn't Sam who initiated and sustained anything.
Read it, the whole thing was closed until TCT reopened it by bullying the LAA


There is a further reform that needs to happen then: the LAA must be stripped of its role as a regulator of light aviation.
My God, the lunatics really are running the asylum...

If there's one thing the LAA need to do it's stick to engineering and promotion and forget trophy awarding...

Oh, and Fred? (Fred who? At least we know who Sam is...) - Are you one of Tracy's foot soldiers.

ShortfinalFred 8th Oct 2018 12:39

Mister Rutherford. To paraphrase a witness at a well known trial, "You would say that, wouldn't you". I hold no agenda except that I've become very uncomfortable with the level of personal abuse that this affair has generated online, and have met people who are stunned at your lobbying tactics. The vehemence of these, and the attacks on personal integrity they allege were made by you, is at odds with the persona you present here. There is a valid counter argument to be made here in relation to the LAA and it has received almost no airing, not entirely unsurprising when the internet forum arena nearly always descends into a negative spiral of accusation within moments of a topic appearing

Ex-spouses: Courts up and down the country are full of ex-spouses, slogging it out. An objective opinion from either is very rarely heard. It seems a sad day that this forum has now descended into one where this kind of thing is used to justify one side or another.

Sam Rutherford 8th Oct 2018 12:49

Hi Fred,

Can I suggest that your continued posting here is similar to my postings/lobbying earlier? It's something you feel is not correct, and shouldn't go unchallenged? Sure it's easy to abandon, but sometimes it's a case of trying to right a wrong - and needs/has no greater/deeper aim.

Then, please, you have heard some demonstrably false things about me - this must at a minimum bring some level of uncertainty to the sources of your information?

Ask them again if I was sacked and left the expedition early? Simple question, simple answer (only the truth is at odds with what Tracey has been telling people).

Planemike 8th Oct 2018 12:52


Originally Posted by ShortfinalFred (Post 10268704)
There is a further reform that needs to happen then: the LAA must be stripped of its role as a regulator of light aviation. People MUST belong to it if they operate at a certain level of aircraft ownership as the LAA has taken over from the CAA in that sector. This makes such an award have a significance it ought not to have when you are meant to be dealing with an impartial regulator. Either the LAA is a membership body that can make awards, counsel, advise and warn, or it is a regulator. It ought not to be both. It is standing into danger here. Arguably, the CAA as the Government appointed aviation regulatory body should be adequately resourced to review and license all aviation in the UK: an impartial body, open to advice and input from all - the LAA, the BGA, AOPA etc etc., but this is no longer the case. I for one do not want to belong to an organisation that perpetuates such a woeful saga, and yet I HAVE TO if I am to fly a certain category of aeroplane.A potential outcome from this endless process would be a demand that people not be shackled to a body that is both 'de jure' regulator and a selector of individuals for recognition, and that reform of the LAA itself is needed. .

I have been an LAA/PFA member for 40 plus years. I do not have a license, nor am I building an aircraft. I can however see no merit in handing over regulation of Permit aircraft to the CAA. I am certain owners of permit aircraft would be paying vastly higher fees to the CAA than they do to the LAA. Paying NO fees will NEVER be an option. The LAA is a member run organization where costs are scrutinized by the members. The CAA has no such scrutiny and requires everything "gold plated" with the attendant cost. Leave the LAA to get on with its job which by and large it does pretty well. Are you suggesting the work the BGA and the BMAA should also pass to the CAA?. I don't think you will get many takers.....

What is wrong with the LAA handing out awards? Many people have been so honoured by the PFA/LAA over the years and have taken pride in receiving those awards.

The problem is T C-T ....... Not the LAA.

PS Seems you are free to choose the expensive CAA route if you so wish. I did not realize that option was available. (see msg # 207 below)

Blink182 8th Oct 2018 13:04

Fred, at a risk of going off topic a bit;
As I understand it you are quite at liberty to operate a Permit to Fly aircraft outside the auspices of the LAA.
The CAA can administer a PtF aircraft if you so desire, you have just got to accept their costs and procedures . See CAP733

Fitter2 8th Oct 2018 13:07

Dear 'shortfinalFred'

I have followed this thread and the previous one with a degree of amusement and bemusement.

What I do know is that everything Sam Rutherford has posted on this matter here can be verified by independent sources. I have never seen anything from him that could be construed as mud-slinging.

I also have observed a real degree of personal attacks on Sam, who uses his real name' by anonymous individuals, attacks that can be demonstrated to contain false information, and also a refusal to answer simple questions about Ms Curtis-Taylor's activities addressed to her and her supporters, which if satisfactorily answered with independently verifiable evidence would have closed the matter long ago. Instead, there appears to have been a campaign of deliberate confusion and I believe anyone following what is independently verifiable would know whose views hold water.

The management of the LAA appear to have behaved impeccably within the constitution, and continue to support genuine aviators.

I am not a member of the LAA, but know where my vote would be placed if I were.

F2

Cows getting bigger 8th Oct 2018 13:12

Personal view.

90%+ of TCT's adventures should be embraced as a positive for GA. Regardless of the amount of support and/or seats occupied, it must be recognised that dragging a Stearman so far was a notable endeavour. Unfortunately, there is a bitter pill here. For whatever reason, TCT (I'll be benevolent, it could be her media support team) did not resist the various poorly informed assertions that it was a solo flight. Indeed, there is enough factual evidence to support accusations that TCT intentionally fuelled such assertions; there was absolutely no need.

So, after the event(s)we have a set of flights and a few queries about how the solo element had been assumed/peddled. Once highlighted, an honourable individual may well have stuck their hand up and acknowledged that the spin machine had spun a bit too much; very easy to do. Instead, and for whatever reason, this was not done and escalated into a members' club trophy issue that really isn't worthy of argument outside of the club. To be revisited after 2+ years is just complete nonsense and , for that, I believe TCT is being somewhat mischievious.

Turning to misogyny etc. Well, forgive me but anyone who uses a sales pitch of "Bird in a Biplane" immediately puts them selves on dodgy ground if they subsequently look to play a sexism card. You simply cannot cherry-pick the times where you want to use gender to an advantage and then turn around and accuse others of using gender as a means of belittling.

A final thought. I sort of agree with SFF's view on the role of the LAA. Their prime business must be overseeing regulation of permit aircraft for the CAA. To become embroiled in this nonsense is worrisome. The vultures should stop circling, TCT should just fess-up and the LAA should manage such issues at an appropriate level. Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder what Bill Woodhams would have thought about all this noise? We're losing our way here people.

Genghis the Engineer 8th Oct 2018 13:21

To be fair, it seems unlikely that the LAA people embroiled in this, are the same LAA people who administer permit aeroplane building and permit revalidations.

G

SATCOS WHIPPING BOY 8th Oct 2018 14:25

Just a point that may have been lost in the dust.
The LAA voting form has binary responses to eight resolutions/motions. If a member is not attending the meeting then they simply tick the box for either FOR or AGAINST.
If a member cannot attend and is unsure of how to vote, (perhaps insufficient information or knowledge) then they can elect a PROXY to vote on their behalf. Normally that PROXY is the Chairman but it does not have to be. You are allowed to name another PROXY on the returned voting form who can cast a vote on the day on behalf of the member.

My advice if you remain undecided and are using the PROXY option, is to nominate a named colleague to vote on your behalf. This removes any burden on the Chairman; both at the meeting and at any future re-hashings.

In 2016, the Chairman elected to appoint the PROXY votes in favour of rescinding the award. He could equally have allocated them to the against vote; the outcome would have been the same with a majority vote to rescind the award.
HTH
SWB

Pilot DAR 8th Oct 2018 14:30

Please avoid speculation on the identity of posters. Posters are entitled to anonymity if that is their choice.

Right Hand Thread 8th Oct 2018 14:48


Originally Posted by ShortfinalFred (Post 10268704)
The awards committee, you and others are effectively saying, did not do their due diligence

No. They/we are not, it is clear that they were misled just like the rest of us. The awards committee have no apology to make.

Thud105 8th Oct 2018 14:49

Apologies DAR, you are of course correct - I was out of order. SATCO, I took your advice re previous posts and am minded to agree with you. I guess with all the speculation, confusion, 'alternative facts' half-truths and downright lies I got a bit hornswoggled!

SATCOS WHIPPING BOY 8th Oct 2018 14:53


Originally Posted by Thud105 (Post 10268837)
Apologies DAR, you are of course correct - I was out of order. SATCO, I took your advice re previous posts and am minded to agree with you. I guess with all the speculation, confusion, 'alternative facts' half-truths and downright lies I got a bit hornswoggled!


We are all getting hornswoggled :-) (another great word which is wholly appropriate)

I have edited my post to stay on the right side of Pilot DAR ;-)

9 lives 8th Oct 2018 15:18

Hey, LAA members,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingmac https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gifConfronted by "Alone in an open cockpit" and Solo, what would you assume?
That's EXACTLY the point!

You have all been duped like sacrificial sheep when you just don't know the facts

Nick
Someone's trying to distract again...

What's the LAA award for? "navigation..."? "Solo" is not a factor in this award, don't be distracted!

On the face of it, would the LAA members like to feel that their organization has made an award for "navigation", when the flight awarded was flown with multiple advanced navigation aids, second pilot assistance, ground planning assistance, and a chase plane? If those factors in a flight still allow that flight to be awarded a navigation award, I think the LAA should print up a lot of those awards, as there will be many deserving pilots who have accomplished long flights with less assistance, who should be similarly awarded!

runway30 8th Oct 2018 15:45


Originally Posted by 9 lives (Post 10268861)
Hey, LAA members,



Someone's trying to distract again...

What's the LAA award for? "navigation..."? "Solo" is not a factor in this award, don't be distracted!

On the face of it, would the LAA members like to feel that their organization has made an award for "navigation", when the flight awarded was flown with multiple advanced navigation aids, second pilot assistance, ground planning assistance, and a chase plane? If those factors in a flight still allow that flight to be awarded a navigation award, I think the LAA should print up a lot of those awards, as there will be many deserving pilots who have accomplished long flights with less assistance, who should be similarly awarded!

Speaking as someone who used to be a member of an Awards Committee for another body, I donít think that any of the assistance precludes the making of an award so long as all of those facts were made known to the Committee at the time. If further facts came to light subsequently then the matter should have been referred back to the Committee making the award. I donít think that playing this out at an AGM, not only once but twice, is to the credit of anyone.

jez d 8th Oct 2018 15:55


Originally Posted by ShortfinalFred (Post 10268704)
There is a further reform that needs to happen then: the LAA must be stripped of its role as a regulator of light aviation. People MUST belong to it if they operate at a certain level of aircraft ownership as the LAA has taken over from the CAA in that sector. This makes such an award have a significance it ought not to have when you are meant to be dealing with an impartial regulator. Either the LAA is a membership body that can make awards, counsel, advise and warn, or it is a regulator. It ought not to be both. It is standing into danger here. Arguably, the CAA as the Government appointed aviation regulatory body should be adequately resourced to review and license all aviation in the UK: an impartial body, open to advice and input from all - the LAA, the BGA, AOPA etc etc., but this is no longer the case. I for one do not want to belong to an organisation that perpetuates such a woeful saga, and yet I HAVE TO if I am to fly a certain category of aeroplane.A potential outcome from this endless process would be a demand that people not be shackled to a body that is both 'de jure' regulator and a selector of individuals for recognition, and that reform of the LAA itself is needed.

I think you have it 'tail about prop'. There is absolutely no chance that the CAA would welcome LAA PtF aircraft back under their regulatory wing, and I know for a fact that they would be only too pleased to see those Permit aircraft remaining on their books handed over to the LAA, or some other Competent Authority. Whether the LAA, as a Competent Authority, should be giving out awards is a interesting question, however, and perhaps could be debated in future, as one thing that is certain is that no one will benefit from this current debacle, no matter what the end result is. The best that can be hoped for is damage limitation.

canopener 8th Oct 2018 20:38


Originally Posted by ShortfinalFred (Post 10268740)
Mister Rutherford. To paraphrase a witness at a well known trial, "You would say that, wouldn't you". I hold no agenda except that I've become very uncomfortable with the level of personal abuse that this affair has generated online, and have met people who are stunned at your lobbying tactics. The vehemence of these, and the attacks on personal integrity they allege were made by you, is at odds with the persona you present here. There is a valid counter argument to be made here in relation to the LAA and it has received almost no airing, not entirely unsurprising when the internet forum arena nearly always descends into a negative spiral of accusation within moments of a topic appearing

Ex-spouses: Courts up and down the country are full of ex-spouses, slogging it out. An objective opinion from either is very rarely heard. It seems a sad day that this forum has now descended into one where this kind of thing is used to justify one side or another.

FYI Fred,Ex-spouses we may be but this is not some matrimonial slogging match.The only reason I've taken to posting on this forum is to clear the fog that has engulfed Tracey's recollection of the past.Every thing I have stated is 100% factual,no embellishment,no exaggeration,no stretching of the truth....all of her employment in NZ can be confirmed,the name of the supermarket where she stacked shelves,the restaurant where she waited tables,the flying school she was fired from,the aerial mapping and photography company she sales rep'd for.
One of my early posts on the other thread exposed the gross exaggeration on her website bio,you see Fred I was there for a lot of the content of that early bio stuff and most of it is shear fabrication.There is no animosity,no bitterness,no acrimony,no resentment on my part.....I just don't like BS'ing bullies.
Over and out......for now.Steve Taylor NZ.

oscarisapc 8th Oct 2018 20:48

Oh dear! What a mess! I am a retired aviator and no longer a member of the LAA for which I still retain a strong sense of loyalty and gratitude for many years of fun flying. I also enjoyed Tracey Curtis Taylorís original film on TV and my only reaction was envy at her opportunity to fly such a wonderful machine across Africa. I say this because I have no dog in this fight but I canít see how this saga is going to end well for anyone. What is due to happen at the AGM on October 21 is, in effect, an appeal against previous process. Who said what to whom and where is not the issue. The question to be decided is about the original decision to award the Bill Woodhams trophy in 2014. If the trophy was awarded properly by the Awards Committee in the light of all known facts, then no matter what others think about it, the resolution to rescind it was wrong and it should be reinstated with an apology. If it was awarded improperly on the basis of wrong information which, if corrected, would have altered the outcome, then the resolution of October 2016 should stand. Logically, only one of those outcomes is possible. These are the matters of fact that should be addressed at the AGM. Factual arguments for and against the motions on this basis should have been invited and presented to the membership in writing in advance, so that members who take an interest but cannot attend in person can consider them and register their vote. On such an important issue, taking verbal and emotional arguments at a meeting and relying on a show of hands based on who can attend is not going to satisfy anyone.


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