Here we friggin go !
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28 day rule? Friendly neighbours? Who's counting? Flexible start dates for each 365 day period?
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Are we all invited to the Fly-B-Que...?
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Better not agree to the meeting, as agreeing to a meeting on "the site of the development" would be admitting that a "development" has taken place (hint: if no "development" has taken place there may be no need for planning permission)?
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The 28 day rule ain’t gonna work for me, I fly out of here once or twice a day when the weathers good. I’ve been looking at the planning website and there’s something about continued use for a period of 10 years may create some sort of grandfather rights. I’ll have to do more digging. It’ll be a bugger if they shut me down as a lot of folks from all over the UK get a lot of enjoyment out of the field with all types of equipment from parasails, microlight, gyros, helicopters and fixed wing for both business and pleasure. Plus the flyers bring a lot business into the cafe at the nature reserve next door that employs several local women with steady work which can be few and far between in rural areas in the winter. If there’s a way to get it sorted I’ll move mountains to get it done.
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Type up a letter from 30 years ago and fake the paper to look like an old council letterhead. Then do a scabby photocopy of it.
Produce that as your planning consent, secure in the knowledge that no local authority can realistically go back 30 years and find their copy of anything. |
Under English law you would need a "Certificate of lawful use"
This looks like the Scottish version. Certificates of lawful use or development |
Originally Posted by airpolice
(Post 10114994)
Produce that as your planning consent, secure in the knowledge that no local authority can realistically go back 30 years and find their copy of anything.
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"continued use for a period of 10 years" has been used elsewhere in Scotland for sure and it might help if records could be produced by yourself and others, such as logbook entries proving that flights were made over the period. Once that has been established, you're then into "change of use" of the land and associated higher council tax rates.
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If the airstrip has been there for more than 10 years and has been used more than 28 days a year then and there has been no complaints then you can apply for continued use.
Speak to the Angus council planning officer. You may have to prove this with log book entries and a visiting aircraft log.. |
Originally Posted by Colibri49
(Post 10115021)
"continued use for a period of 10 years" has been used elsewhere in Scotland for sure and it might help if records could be produced by yourself and others, such as logbook entries proving that flights were made over the period. Once that has been established, you're then into "change of use" of the land and associated higher council tax rates.
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PB,
I'd be very careful what you post here in a public forum. No doubt every genuine aviator wishes you well in this, and will want to know what happens, but obviously the forum is also available to 'Angus Council' and anyone working for them. FWIW; while I live in a different jurisdiction and cannot offer specific advice I will PM you separately to this post with a few comments that may be useful. FP. |
Originally Posted by piperboy84
(Post 10114980)
The 28 day rule ain’t gonna work for me, I fly out of here once or twice a day when the weathers good. I’ve been looking at the planning website and there’s something about continued use for a period of 10 years may create some sort of grandfather rights. I’ll have to do more digging. It’ll be a bugger if they shut me down as a lot of folks from all over the UK get a lot of enjoyment out of the field with all types of equipment from parasails, microlight, gyros, helicopters and fixed wing for both business and pleasure. Plus the flyers bring a lot business into the cafe at the nature reserve next door that employs several local women with steady work which can be few and far between in rural areas in the winter. If there’s a way to get it sorted I’ll move mountains to get it done.
Get planning advice, accompany your application with lots of evidence at the outset and with luck it will get passed by officers with delegated powers, local authorities want process non contentious issue quickly. The more publicity it gets the greater the risk of potential objectors coming to the surface, time your application to coincide with summer holidays when local nimbys are on holiday. You probably will have to pay some rates on buildings and there will be limitations on flying activities attached. |
I don't agree that it has to be expensive just because the Local Authority might want to throw money at it. A well presented case can be argued (by you) in court without legal representation.
A case presented by you, to a Sheriff, without incurring costs, is just as valid as the same case argued by a Brief with no interest (other than getting paid) in the facts. |
Gaw blimey, when I saw that letter, I thought it was for the Guvnor!!
Shudder! |
Originally Posted by Evanelpus
(Post 10115768)
Gaw blimey, when I saw that letter, I thought it was for the Guvnor!!
Shudder! Anyway, had a chin wag with the planner today, a thoroughly decent and professional chap and the upshot was we’re going to explore different avenues to keep everybody happy. |
Originally Posted by airpolice
(Post 10115703)
I don't agree that it has to be expensive just because the Local Authority might want to throw money at it. A well presented case can be argued (by you) in court without legal representation.
A case presented by you, to a Sheriff, without incurring costs, is just as valid as the same case argued by a Brief with no interest (other than getting paid) in the facts. You probably don't want to spend much cash on this because there is no money to be made and you can still go back to the 28 day rule, best of luck you will certainly find out who your friends are!. |
Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
(Post 10116242)
The local authority are not the problem
So yes, sometimes the local authority are not themselves the cause of the problem, it's just that they've not really got any option but to investigate complaints and take action if a breach of planning law is found, even if the council thinks the public interest would be better served by ignoring the complaint. |
I would not meet initially but initially write back politely saying you were aware this a 'development. My advice would be to get some professional advice from someone who specialises.
The ten year rule sounds interesting i will have to look that up for England, your not confusing that with adverse possession are you, although that is 12 years in England. I would tread very carefully with them because planning enforcement the can become controlling, once you make a stand. I had a long running battle over a site office (shipping container) on land I was in possesion of, yet as I pointed out people keep caravans, boats, horse boxes, etc on private residential land or agricultural. In the end the council wanted £750 from me and a further £750 for the Secretay of State to appeal! I was not happy about that. Then they used a HIAB to remove it and I haven't seen it again, so I we be taking them to the County Court. All this change of use reminds me of when Jeremy Clarkson parked a lightning jet on his front law. You could get planning advice for free from another borough council, you will have to dream up a location on their patch. Is there an association of airstrip owners, they might help. One thing you could ask the council is before you arrange a meeting, could the council disclose the letter of complaint and a list of the aircraft types, colouring, markings and registrations, also do not let on you have a visitors log, if you have one. The other thing before the meeting get a copy of the deeds, because there may not be any restriction on the use of the land. To get a copy of your deeds online in England is £4.00 Good luck and keep us posted. P.S. Just one other thing, I tried to look for your strip through your postcode on google earth, and I am guessing it is two fields north of a loch roughly 08/26 with two buildings. Bit of caution here, if they were put up as agricultural buldings, planning make take issue. I had a friend who had this issuebut he argued that he only needed them for agricultural for relatively short season, for storing produce, at othe tome he might shelter his aircraft there. Going back to google earth and this will either support your case or destroy it if you are claiming the ten year rule, there is a function in google earth click on the top right hand bar 'VIEW' 'HISTORICAL' and by moving the sliding bar from the most recent image back to 2007, which gives you eleven years, as I would say that too looks like a landing strip, tell me I'm not wrong. Your planning officer will do this. You might need a professional pilot as a witness to state on the balance of probabilities both images look like an airstrip. Also if this strip has been used regularly, I can think of a very senior CAAFU examiner who has been flying in the area for years, infact I did my CPL GFT with him routing via Forfar, he would be the ideal witness, I can PM his name if you have not guessed. |
Why would there be council tax, money has never changed hands, I don’t run a business, I’ve never charged anyone for anything (never charged a landing fee). It’s basicaly a sporting club of one where I have covered all the maintenance cost by myself. |
Some posters have suggested that you try to take the p??s and try to avoid the rules, don't do that, instead of a friendly planning officer you will get a really miserable enforcement officer, play it straight.
In England it would be a Certificate of lawfull use, present your application as best you can, when they accept it as a valid application it will be advertised to neighbours, local parish councils, environment agency, highways and probably other. They will all have a limited time to make comments, you can read these comments either online or at the council offices before the application is determined, if you have a lot of adverse comment, ask to put the decision back a month and provide extra evidence to counter the comment. So far it would have cost you very little, if you get refused and appeal it will cost a great deal. |
Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
(Post 10117477)
instead of a friendly planning officer you will get a really miserable enforcement officer
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A few lessons to be learned here.
https://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic...hilit=Planning Basically, stop broadcasting everything on the internet and seek professional advice from the start. |
you need to speak to a planning consultant.
signed witness statements may be the way to go to prove 10 years use. |
Tread Carefully
PB84 Golden Rule
As alluded in the post's the 'Council' have to be seen to follow up complaints or observations from third parties. They frequently encourage you to 'Just make an application old boy' which may be asked for in a very friendly way, but it merely puts you at risk on two counts. A:- it presumes YOU NEED to make an application (when in fact you do not), and B:- What do you do when the application is refused (which is entirely likely) even if the actual planning officer recommends approval. It only needs a couple of switched on locals to bombard the Council with complaints, or the threat of a judicial review, and your 'friendly' planning officer suddenly becomes your executioner. Your initial action should be to DO NOTHING,ADMIT NOTHING, and certainly not to commit anything to paper or e-mail or even telephone conversation. The Council do not like having to take enforcement action as it puts them on the back foot as to what they are trying to enforce against, and they frequently get it wrong in unusual cases. Also there may be different rules in Scotland or even local bylaws. If you have an 'off the record' chat with the planning officer do not say anything that may harm your case (they are not allowed to record conversations anyway) and merely ask what action they propose to take. This will at least forewarn you on what action you need to prepare for. There are planning consultants out there who can advise, but local knowledge is always useful. I would suggest a call to the LAA at Turnweston would be in order as they are an organisation that has a lot of dealings with 'strips' so they will know the best people in your area to advise you. Good Luck and remember 'Loose Lips Sinks Ships' PM me if you want I have been down this route more than once so may be able to 'point you' in a positive direction. !!! |
Originally Posted by POBJOY
(Post 10119289)
There are planning consultants out there who can advise, but local knowledge is always useful.
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Originally Posted by Gertrude the Wombat
(Post 10119438)
Planning consultants have considerably more value if they know the local planning policies and the local planning officers. So choose a local one.
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If you can't use it as a landing strip then sell the land to some members of the travelling community.
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Originally Posted by TractorBoy
(Post 10119905)
If you can't use it as a landing strip then sell the land to some members of the travelling community.
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If you kept an airfield log which shows entries covering more than 10 years then you're in with a chance. I did and that led to my being granted a Cert of Lawful use which suited me fine and comes with no conditions. The down side was that a jobsworth at the council asked the Valuation Office (VO) to set a rateable value on the strip but after some dialogue with the VO they declined to do so. Result.
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Originally Posted by airpolice
(Post 10119916)
You mean rent it, surely.
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
(Post 10123462)
There is a rumor that there are good travelers
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Originally Posted by anchorhold
(Post 10117102)
<snip>
if you are claiming the ten year rule, there is a function in google earth click on the top right hand bar 'VIEW' 'HISTORICAL' and by moving the sliding bar from the most recent image back to 2007, which gives you eleven years, as I would say that too looks like a landing strip <snip> |
What about consulting with Flying Farmers?
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Originally Posted by cats_five
(Post 10124081)
I don't think the 2007 image does look like a landing strip. There are three obvious hedges plus gates in it, which have vanished by the time of the 2011 photo where it also shows signs of wear along the appropriate orientation. If I was looking for a field to land a glider in I'd have no hesitation with the 2011 onwards appearance, but not with the hedges. The distance between the west-most & centre hedges is 180m, which while it's possible to squeeze the right kind of glider in is pretty tight.
no wonder he bought a Maul. |
Hi Piperboy.
What is the state of play with your strip? I was hoping to pop in with the R22 sometime in the next week or two for a cup of tea and a sticky bun at Murton. Can we stillll land there or is the strip closed? Either way i hope things work out ok. Regards. Martin |
Hi PIperboy i présumé it was you refuelling at Dundee this afternoon. I was going to intro myself but was busy preflighting OF. Am doing my IMC rating. By the time I got finished you were off again. Great day for flying |
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