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Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Here we friggin go !

Old 11th Apr 2018, 16:38
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Here we friggin go !

Let the games begin

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Old 11th Apr 2018, 17:38
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28 day rule? Friendly neighbours? Who's counting? Flexible start dates for each 365 day period?
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 18:01
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Are we all invited to the Fly-B-Que...?
.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 20:07
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Better not agree to the meeting, as agreeing to a meeting on "the site of the development" would be admitting that a "development" has taken place (hint: if no "development" has taken place there may be no need for planning permission)?
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 20:55
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The 28 day rule ain’t gonna work for me, I fly out of here once or twice a day when the weathers good. I’ve been looking at the planning website and there’s something about continued use for a period of 10 years may create some sort of grandfather rights. I’ll have to do more digging. It’ll be a bugger if they shut me down as a lot of folks from all over the UK get a lot of enjoyment out of the field with all types of equipment from parasails, microlight, gyros, helicopters and fixed wing for both business and pleasure. Plus the flyers bring a lot business into the cafe at the nature reserve next door that employs several local women with steady work which can be few and far between in rural areas in the winter. If there’s a way to get it sorted I’ll move mountains to get it done.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:06
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Type up a letter from 30 years ago and fake the paper to look like an old council letterhead. Then do a scabby photocopy of it.

Produce that as your planning consent, secure in the knowledge that no local authority can realistically go back 30 years and find their copy of anything.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:17
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Under English law you would need a "Certificate of lawful use"

This looks like the Scottish version.

Certificates of lawful use or development
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:19
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
Produce that as your planning consent, secure in the knowledge that no local authority can realistically go back 30 years and find their copy of anything.
You're taking a little bit of a risk, someone might have put that stuff onto microfiche (and might still have a working reader!). But yes, I did once ask council officers to search for some old plans, to be told, eventually, "they must have got lost in the 1936 fire". (There was, of course, no 1936 fire - this is simply officer speak for "sorry councillor, can't find them, I'm going back to my day job now".)
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:25
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"continued use for a period of 10 years" has been used elsewhere in Scotland for sure and it might help if records could be produced by yourself and others, such as logbook entries proving that flights were made over the period. Once that has been established, you're then into "change of use" of the land and associated higher council tax rates.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:40
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If the airstrip has been there for more than 10 years and has been used more than 28 days a year then and there has been no complaints then you can apply for continued use.
Speak to the Angus council planning officer.
You may have to prove this with log book entries and a visiting aircraft log..
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 21:41
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Originally Posted by Colibri49 View Post
"continued use for a period of 10 years" has been used elsewhere in Scotland for sure and it might help if records could be produced by yourself and others, such as logbook entries proving that flights were made over the period. Once that has been established, you're then into "change of use" of the land and associated higher council tax rates.
Why would there be council tax, money has never changed hands, I don’t run a business, I’ve never charged anyone for anything (never charged a landing fee). It’s basicaly a sporting club of one where I have covered all the maintenance cost by myself.
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 23:21
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PB,

I'd be very careful what you post here in a public forum. No doubt every genuine aviator wishes you well in this, and will want to know what happens, but obviously the forum is also available to 'Angus Council' and anyone working for them.

FWIW; while I live in a different jurisdiction and cannot offer specific advice I will PM you separately to this post with a few comments that may be useful.

FP.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 06:41
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Originally Posted by piperboy84 View Post
The 28 day rule ainít gonna work for me, I fly out of here once or twice a day when the weathers good. Iíve been looking at the planning website and thereís something about continued use for a period of 10 years may create some sort of grandfather rights. Iíll have to do more digging. Itíll be a bugger if they shut me down as a lot of folks from all over the UK get a lot of enjoyment out of the field with all types of equipment from parasails, microlight, gyros, helicopters and fixed wing for both business and pleasure. Plus the flyers bring a lot business into the cafe at the nature reserve next door that employs several local women with steady work which can be few and far between in rural areas in the winter. If thereís a way to get it sorted Iíll move mountains to get it done.
You probably have got the right to continued use but you are going to have to prove it with documents and statements in your favour and if the locals really are friendly it will not be too demanding, contact the council and let them know you are preparing an application or they will chase you. However if you have just one local councillor or even worse one well heeled objector it can get very complicated and expensive.
Get planning advice, accompany your application with lots of evidence at the outset and with luck it will get passed by officers with delegated powers, local authorities want process non contentious issue quickly. The more publicity it gets the greater the risk of potential objectors coming to the surface, time your application to coincide with summer holidays when local nimbys are on holiday.
You probably will have to pay some rates on buildings and there will be limitations on flying activities attached.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 11:06
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I don't agree that it has to be expensive just because the Local Authority might want to throw money at it. A well presented case can be argued (by you) in court without legal representation.

A case presented by you, to a Sheriff, without incurring costs, is just as valid as the same case argued by a Brief with no interest (other than getting paid) in the facts.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 12:00
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Gaw blimey, when I saw that letter, I thought it was for the Guvnor!!

Shudder!
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 16:58
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Originally Posted by Evanelpus View Post
Gaw blimey, when I saw that letter, I thought it was for the Guvnor!!

Shudder!
That went way over my head?

Anyway, had a chin wag with the planner today, a thoroughly decent and professional chap and the upshot was weíre going to explore different avenues to keep everybody happy.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 19:40
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
I don't agree that it has to be expensive just because the Local Authority might want to throw money at it. A well presented case can be argued (by you) in court without legal representation.

A case presented by you, to a Sheriff, without incurring costs, is just as valid as the same case argued by a Brief with no interest (other than getting paid) in the facts.
The local authority are not the problem, the planning officer might be very helpful, you can represent yourself but don't make mistakes or omit information. The original letter was probably prompted by some person enquiring about your planning status, as you are next to a nature reserve, it might be alleged that aircraft noise disturbs the breeding activity of newts, believe me that will cause problems.

You probably don't want to spend much cash on this because there is no money to be made and you can still go back to the 28 day rule, best of luck you will certainly find out who your friends are!.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 22:12
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010 View Post
The local authority are not the problem
I have been the planning portfolio holder, and hence in charge of the planning enforcement service, when a complaint came in which really one would have preferred to ignore (for all sorts of reasons, including possibly some racism, which I won't go into). But it was reasonably clear that if the council didn't follow through the complaint exactly to the letter of the law we'd be taken to JR by the complainant, and the court (apart from being expensive) would then order the council to follow the letter of the law anyway.

So yes, sometimes the local authority are not themselves the cause of the problem, it's just that they've not really got any option but to investigate complaints and take action if a breach of planning law is found, even if the council thinks the public interest would be better served by ignoring the complaint.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 14:07
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I would not meet initially but initially write back politely saying you were aware this a 'development. My advice would be to get some professional advice from someone who specialises.

The ten year rule sounds interesting i will have to look that up for England, your not confusing that with adverse possession are you, although that is 12 years in England.

I would tread very carefully with them because planning enforcement the can become controlling, once you make a stand.

I had a long running battle over a site office (shipping container) on land I was in possesion of, yet as I pointed out people keep caravans, boats, horse boxes, etc on private residential land or agricultural. In the end the council wanted £750 from me and a further £750 for the Secretay of State to appeal! I was not happy about that. Then they used a HIAB to remove it and I haven't seen it again, so I we be taking them to the County Court.

All this change of use reminds me of when Jeremy Clarkson parked a lightning jet on his front law.

You could get planning advice for free from another borough council, you will have to dream up a location on their patch. Is there an association of airstrip owners, they might help.

One thing you could ask the council is before you arrange a meeting, could the council disclose the letter of complaint and a list of the aircraft types, colouring, markings and registrations, also do not let on you have a visitors log, if you have one. The other thing before the meeting get a copy of the deeds, because there may not be any restriction on the use of the land. To get a copy of your deeds online in England is £4.00

Good luck and keep us posted.

P.S. Just one other thing, I tried to look for your strip through your postcode on google earth, and I am guessing it is two fields north of a loch roughly 08/26 with two buildings. Bit of caution here, if they were put up as agricultural buldings, planning make take issue. I had a friend who had this issuebut he argued that he only needed them for agricultural for relatively short season, for storing produce, at othe tome he might shelter his aircraft there. Going back to google earth and this will either support your case or destroy it if you are claiming the ten year rule, there is a function in google earth click on the top right hand bar 'VIEW' 'HISTORICAL' and by moving the sliding bar from the most recent image back to 2007, which gives you eleven years, as I would say that too looks like a landing strip, tell me I'm not wrong. Your planning officer will do this. You might need a professional pilot as a witness to state on the balance of probabilities both images look like an airstrip. Also if this strip has been used regularly, I can think of a very senior CAAFU examiner who has been flying in the area for years, infact I did my CPL GFT with him routing via Forfar, he would be the ideal witness, I can PM his name if you have not guessed.

Last edited by anchorhold; 13th Apr 2018 at 14:47.
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Old 13th Apr 2018, 16:26
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Why would there be council tax, money has never changed hands, I don’t run a business, I’ve never charged anyone for anything (never charged a landing fee). It’s basicaly a sporting club of one where I have covered all the maintenance cost by myself.
PB, to echo what others have hinted. Watch what you post. I would take advice also. Rates is your major issue.
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