tail dragger difficulty?
 

I guess that the answer is "it varies". The question is, coming from a nose dragger which one is very familiar with, how challenging will a conversion to the tail dragger version of the same be? Oh and I am quite able to dance on the on the pedals, a skill I learned when I got an R22 licence (now lapsed). In my case, the aircraft is a Rans S6 microlight. Is this a benign tail dragger type?

A chap I know bought a tail dragger, as his first aircraft, after training on nose wheel types, all different to his own. After much ringing around he was not able to find a microlight instructor with a tail wheel qualification and aircraft or an instructor prepared to travel to him and train him in his own aircraft. After much delay and some thought he eventually converted himself. Probably not to be recommended but needs must. In the end it was a non event, perhaps his aircraft is not too twitchy.

Rans6............................................

It's not that difficult at all, the main things you have to remember are:
* When taxiing always do as you were trained for your PPL, position the control surfaces to climb into a headwind and dive away from a tailwind
* You ain't done landing till she's parked up in the hangar
* Re-read your PPL books on P factor: left turning tendencies on take off and understand a which point in the takeoff roll they come into play especially when you lift the tail
* Full aileron deflection prior to take off roll in a crosswind then unwind it as needed (no skipping across the runway)
* Dont get lead feet on short final keep your feet loose and active.
* Absolutley no drift and no crab on landing, hold it cross controlled (slipped) and aligned with final, land on the upwind wheel first if you have to.
* When cross controlled in an x-wind if you run out of rudder authority due to the wind being to strong, find another landing site or shave a better angle across the runway your trying for.
* And most importantly try keep the wee wheel behind you.

This book explains it well, again it's not difficult.
[IMG]The Compleat Taildragger Pilot https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0963913700/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_zVDhAb7PW3DNC[/IMG]

Agree with the above. It’s not difficult but you do need to be proactive with the rudder and anticipate when and how to use it.

No experience with an S6 myself.

But your R22 experience will stand you in good stead.

However find someone with experience who can teach you the important things. I have read the books and find them to be of very little practical help and have not recommended to anyone wanting to learn to fly a tail dragger.

A couple of good briefs by an experienced tailwheel instructor is more helpful and you can practise what you have been told immediately during the post brief flight.

" Re-read your PPL books on P factor: left turning tendencies on take off and understand a which point in the takeoff roll they come into play especially when you lift the tail"

Errrr - they don't turn left because the 3rd wheel is at the back. Nor do they all turn left when you lift the tail!

There's always one smart arse!

I don't understand your comment Cirrussy. The post I commented on was suggesting to someone who had asked advice that taildraggers have a left-turning tendency on take off. This statement is erroneous, being overly simplistic and a crude generalisation. I have flown quite a few taildraggers that swung to the right on takeoff, while some Griffon-powered aircraft don't swing either way. Was I being smart - or perhaps you're not that bright?

Sorry Thud , but that just wasn't necessary !
Andrew's original post was to ask about the foibles of taildragging. One of the good things about forums is that there is a plethora of information and helpful tips available from fellow pilots .
Whether your tailwheeler has a tendency to wander left or right upon raising the tail depends on your engines D.O.R. doesn't it ?
Now , let's get back to the core subject shall we.
But without the nastiness.

Reprimand accepted Chris - apologies to Cirrusy. Having a bad day, aching joints.
However, you must agree that promulgating erroneous information on forums is not a Good Thing? The post I commented on was suggesting to someone who had asked advice about flying tailwheel aircraft. It stated that taildraggers have a left-turning tendency on take off. This is not that accurate, is it?
Apologies to all again - grumpiness shouldn't be transmitted via the keyboard.
PS It doesn't just depend on the engine's D.O.R., it's mostly the prop. That's why I said "some Griffon-powered aircraft don't swing either way."

Very little difference in handling.
 

Especially if you began flying in gliders....

Don't worry about it, the same rule applies...KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT.
On the ground, taxying a taildragger, the nose does get in the way...that's why nosewheel planes were designed, so you could see over the nose without having to turn a bit from side to side. Modern light aircraft were designed to give you less to think about...

When you are lined up at the end of the runway, and add power, the aircraft will tend to assume a level attitude. With either nosewheel or tailwheel, make sure the level attitude is correct; dinging a prop on the ground is equally embarassing, in nosewheel or tailwheel light aircraft. I was lucky and never bent an aircraft, even in Ireland....

Posters, courtesy in posting is appreciated!

I have experienced "swing" while lifting the tail during takeoff, to the point where rudder application was inadequate to control my path. This effect, however, for most GA planes is much less pronounced. There may also be a torque effect, and that of a crosswind. These effects can combine, or may cancel each other out, depending upon direction. However, the effect of swing when lifting the tail on takeoff is a directional destabilizing effect which is not present on a tricycle aircraft.

The steerable tailwheel may be used to control direction - at speeds slower than 20MPH or so. Faster than that, whether the tailwheel is on the ground or not, the rudder will be the most effective control you'll have with which to steer.

The aileron must always be applied into a crosswind of any strength during takeoff and landing. This should result in the upwind mainwheel leaving the runway last, and contacting first. My experience has been that wheel landings gave me a feeling of greater control during crosswind landings.

If you choose to land three point, it's worth remembering that once the tailwheel is on the runway, you can no longer control the pitch of the aircraft. This is fine, if the aircraft is "down". However, if a bounce, or a gust causes the aircraft to try to fly again, you'll have to either ride it out with the stick back, or lift the tail to regain pitch control, and begin the landing again. If you have wheel landed, with both mainwheels on the runway, you can move the stick slightly forward, to reduce the AoA of the wing, while the aircraft slows, and a bounce is prevented.

The application of brakes without the combined application of lots of up elevator is unwise.

If you already fly an S6 most of the potential difficulties are behind you.

I've been test flying a short tail S7 (VLA - just) and been pleasantly surprised by its directional stability. I suspect the S6 has similar adverse yaw from the ailerons so your feet will already have a good idea what to do.

So the remaining challenges? Let the tail come up in its own time and the S7 yaws very little. The spring legs mean you have to finesse the touchdown and I suspect the S6 loses airspeed the same way as the S7 does - rapidly - so the hold off has to be just clear of the ground.

I suspect you could probably teach yourself given suitable open spaces, but an LAA coach might be a good choice if you cannot find a microlight instructor. (which sort of presumes it is the microlight version!)

Nice acknowledgement there Thud....:ok:
But aren't aching joints normal for gents of a "certain vintage". If I wake up and my joints aren't complaining then it's normally a sign that I'm not drinking enough beer........:O
But back to tailwheeling,,,Gasax raises a good point about the S6 and similarly too with early Kitfox's. Don't assume that an entry level price tag means entry level handling characteristics as some of the light and short coupled tailwheelers are twitchy little so & so's .
Having been fortunate enough to do a few hours in Stearmans I can say they are great big gentle giants. Also , getting some time in a J3 Cub will give you a good feel for tailwheeler handling. Whatever you do , don't try giving yourself "self-tuition" in one of the smaller, lighter types. They're like dogs , the smaller ones bite the worst. Gasax also raised a good point about contacting an LAA coach.


Now ,,,where the heck's my Allopurinol tablets gone...:\

I see this simple - there may be a reason many aircraft in WW2 were taildragger and I guess due to the inexperienced young pilots it is not them (the aircrafts) being complicated.

Thud, not to be arguementitve but I see you disagree with my post about the a tailwheel aircraft not having more left turning tendencies than a trike. I'm no aeronautical expert but I've got about 1000 hours flying Maules equipped with Bushwheels (making them sit prouder) and purely from flying experience when I go to lift the tail I have to apply a little extra right rudder on the transition. I'm lead to believe, but could be wrong, this is because the force being applied to the 12 o'clock position of the prop when lifting the tail creates gyroscopic precession effect at the 3 o'clock position making the aircraft turn left. Granted this is on a aircraft with D.O.R turning clockwise as seen from behind as most GA aircraft are, and also as all my flying is on 235hp or below machines the extra rudder needed to counter the turning is not a great deal more but it certainly does need some that a trike wouldn't.

The whole turning tendencies thing (and being ready for it) is a bit of a red-herring.

Keep looking out the front and correct any incipient turn quickly (no matter the direction)!

On landing, you should be all over the pedals (and brakes if you have/need them) to keep her straight. Busy feet and you'll be fine...

Friend of my owns and flies an S6 taildraggger. Allow yourself a weekend on the continent, I am sure he'll be prepared to take you for a ride.

Thud,

I know that not every tail wheel aircraft turns left. You (obviously) know that, too. We all have absolutely no doubt about your significant flying experience that nobody else could possibly have. Thank you for imparting your knowledge on us.

The point of my post is that piperboy also knows full well that the yaw depends on the rotation of the prop (as he would have learnt this during his tail wheel training) and taking the opportunity to publicly flog him was not really deserved given the spirit with which he posted.

At no point did piperboy say that after reading his post you could exempt oneself from completing the required training... Although I'm sure you already knew that, too.

Anyway, added sarcasm for your viewing pleasure. Let's move on!

Hi Piperboy, your analysis of why your Male yaws left as the tail comes up is essentially correct, although along with precession there's also P-factor, the spiralling slipstream and other factors in play, along with any X-wind. With the really powerful taildraggers (I've flown a few) the fuselage is trying to be torqued in the opposite direction to the prop's rotation. This can increase the rolling resistance on that side, which also increases the propensity to yaw. Aileron is useful here, but the tendency to yaw is the sum of several things. My comment was that they do not all yaw left when you lift the tail! Quite a few taildraggers (in fact quite a lot!) yaw to the right as the tail comes up, some (a few) don't yaw at all. Fully agree that more rudder is required than with a trike though! PS If you feel I 'publicly flogged you' I apologise -that was not my intent. I just thought I'd point out to the OP that - contrary to the impression I believe your post gave - not every taildragger has an inherent tendency to yaw left.

Depends on whether the tailwind is stronger than the propwash. If it is, you need full forward stick when taxying downwind. If the propwash is stonger, full back stick will pin the tail down.

How can you tell which you need? If the tailwind is stronger than the propwash, on holding neutral elevator you'll feel through the stick that the elevator will want to go either full up or full down, blown by the wind. If the elevator is happy to trail in the slipstream when you hold it neutral, the propwash is stronger than the tailwind.

But of course, power changes (and perhaps gusts in the tailwind) can change things.Never had any problem crabbing taildraggers into cross wind landings. You can use either method. I preferred the crab. But of course the crab method assumes that by the time you touch down you will have removed the crab and gone to a 'slip' to remain aligned with the runway.

It's vital that you are looking as far down the runway as you can when you land. That way, any tendency to swing will be noticed immediately and appropriate rudder used to keep straight. But don't over-control the rudder or you'll get PIO in yaw. Just use 'enough'.

But FD is right - a good tailwheel instructor will cover all this and far more.

You're a braver man than me SSD, I start with the crab when turning final (for passenger comfort and ease) but convert to a slip on short final to get a measure of what cross control is needed and indeed if I've got enough authority to keep it straight. I would not have the bottle nor the reaction time to figure it all out AND hope to get it straight between roundout and booting the rudder to de-crab in the final seconds of touch down.

I have to say I'm with Piperboy. The advantage of the slip is that if you can maintain it on short finals (very short), then you should have enough control authority during the holdoff and not have to rely upon the correctly applied and timed uncrab and there being less wind on the runway than on finals.

a) When from the cockpit, the prop turns clockwise, the nose will pull left when power is added.
b) When lifting the tail the nose pulls left or right?

With FULL power for take off, you WILL have a boot of right rudder in.
4 factors play here:
- The P factor from lowering the nose (or lifting the tail) name it as you like.
- The friction of the tailwheel on the grass/asfalt
- The propwash/windforce on the rudder
- The speed you have when you nose over to level position (raise the tail)

At very low speed, the tailwheel does most of the steering, but as speed increases, the rudder does most of the work.

In an ideal situation, you raise the tail at the exact speed that the rudder takes over from the tailwheel, hereby NOT requiring, a rudder correction when you raise the tail.

Remember the "old and heavy tailwheel airplanes.

When lined up with the runway => LOCK the tailwheel.
Keep the tail on the ground and let the tailwheel keep things inline. (With right rudder and aileron for the propwash )

Lift the tail only when you "feel" the rudder response take over from the locked tailwheel.
Or:
Lift off in 3 point, level off a few feet from the ground and let the speed build up to best climb. => Gear, Flaps, and up it goes.

I think Piperboy and I are in agreement. Crab the final approach, go to wing-down slip on short final. What I find doesn't feel right is flying the entire final wing-down.

I would hesitate to say teach yourself to fly a tail wheel aircraft but I guess you could.

Some are more docile than others but they can all bite if you use poor technique.

My 2c (take it or leave it - I regularly instruct on tail wheels so this comes from my experiences converting nose wheel pilots)

Issues:

1. starting -

normally into wind and with stick back to prevent nose overs

2. taxiing -

the aircraft is directionally unstable and can get out of line quickly and will only get more out of line unless appropriately corrected.

the aircraft's wings are at a higher angle of attack and in winds can make life fun
You need to be on the ball when taxiing

you need to keep weight on the tail wheel for directional authority - that at times can mean stick out of wind depending on wind direction

the aircraft will have a strong tendency to turn into wind making taxiing challenging when faced with crossing winds.

watch harsh braking in case tail lifts

3. Take off -

the aircraft is directionally unstable. If it gets out of line it will progressively get worse until it gets nasty unless appropriately corrected.

the aircraft tends to have more swing than nose wheels because during the takeoff roll you will have to push forward to a take off attitude at a speed when you have lower rudder authority.

you need to keep the stick back early in the roll to get directional authority via the tail wheel or skid and then relax the stick as speed builds then actively forward to get a take off attitude as you get more authority

any 'pumping' of the elevator to fine tune or correct the take off attitude will cause swings in different directions.

in a cross wind the weather cock tendency can also add interest to your life

4. landing

- you need to decide what sort of landing you are going to be doing - wheeler or 3 point. Different aircraft may favour one over the other and different conditions favour one over the other. Both use a different landing technique and rely on accurate judgement of nose attitude.

- once on the ground the aircraft is directionally unstable and if it gets out of line it will get worse unless appropriately corrected.

- people unused to tail wheel aircraft have the tendency to relax on the stick or column after touchdown and the tail will lift and this will usually result in a swing. Commonly they will correct for this by pulling back resulting in a swing the other way. The aircraft starts to gyrate left and right as they pump the elevator back and forth. What happens next is a toss up between the amount of directional control they can maintain with the rudder against decreasing rudder authority as the speed decreases. Sometimes they win and remain on the runway. Sometimes they don't.

- depends on type but many don't have good forward vis so you need to be able to use your peripheral vision to judge aircraft height and path through the flare.

- you need to be able to accurately pick the 3 point attitude and if doing wheelers, an appropriate landing attitude.

5. Flying -

this bit does depend on type but most tailwheel aircraft have a powerful rudder (to assist with directional control at low speeds). This means that whilst you still use rudder to counter adverse yaw in flight the amount and feel is different. Typically you will need it or the plane flies out of balance but you need more finesse (rather than 'boots') or it flies out of balance the other way :)

That may all sound very complicated - it isn't and can be easily picked up as second nature if you get someone to show you and monitor you.

You could teach yourself to do it by reading and looking at the internet. I think however that is not the wisest path or the most efficient.

I reckon it would be way smarter to get someone to show you the attitudes, show you the techniques and allow you to develop the feel for the procedure. A few hours of dual instruction would be safer and teach you way more than you will get by teaching yourself.

I think you need an instructor sign-off for tailwheel in your log-book. This might not be done in your Rans.
It would be a very high risk activity to fly your early hours in the Rans without someone capable of sorting out a pilot-induced-oscilation on the runway.
Grass is far easier than hard surface. Don't do your first hard surface landing solo.
Take-off should be no problem. Landing is likely to be no problem - until after your gentle touch-down, on the centre line, in nil wind, and you relax
Keep looking at the end of the runway, and immediately you correct, counter correct. And be very wary of any tailwind component..
(Grandfather rights to tailwheel, 1700+ tailwheel hours.)

'Never let myself do that while flying taildragger! ;)

Oh, you can. Once it's either tied down or in the hangar 😀

Sam,,,,,,,,,Really.:)


Very rarely that I disagree with Sam . My own personal opinion is stay away from them brakes. Unless that hedge at the end is getting really , REALLY big.


Golly , I hope none of those Tiger Moth chappies are reading this..:)

Of course its much easier to take off in a taildragger with a nice big Lycoming and a glider attached to the 150 foot rope.... the glider pilot pays for your flight!

Agree fully here. Brakes are for steering rather than stopping, especially in a tail wheel aeroplane, and even then should only be used in landing if absolutely called for (e.g a swing developing that full corrective rudder isn't holding - a touch of appropriate brake may be needed to save the day).

In general, I agree but I can apply lots of brake on my Kitfox (though rarely needed) before the tail will rise (with stick held hard back).


I suspect that this is true of many tail heavy taildraggers but, of course, they are more likely to ground loop so make sure the brakes are balanced!


Incidentally, although there is still some mystique attached to taildragging, if you get some instruction and then practice a bit, preferably on grass, it is not that difficult. And you can read all the theory you want but in the end you just do what the aeroplane needs at the time (touch wood).


PS I favour the wing down approach/landing too although often crab until a couple of hundred feet above the ground.

With the proliferation of dashboard cams in cars, would it be helpful to mount a similar unit in a position high enough on the aeroplane for a taildragger pilot to be able to see ahead without needing to zig zag?

On top of the fin, or under the engine presumably.

On the majority of taildraggers no, no point at-all. In a Cub it would be nothing but a distraction.

On a few, I could definitely see the value. I've done a little time in one of the Australian Spitfire replicas and landing on shorter grass runways, a camera on the fin would have definitely been nice to have.

G

I did say: "...if you have/need them)"

If you don't have, or don't need...

Crosswind technique.
 

I’ve personally never used the wing down method on finals. The benefit of crabbing a taildragger, particularly a long nosed one like a Tiger or Pitts, all the way to the flare is that I can see ahead. Straightening the nose and dropping a wing the appropriate amount is easy enough in the flare.

That said, my preferred approach method was a constant turn, but traffic doesn’t always allow for that.

With a big nose taildragger, I'd always fly a constant turn, and traffic can just fit in with me! That said, I've only ever flown a few taildraggers with a nose big enough to necessitate that - Cubs and Chipmunks, and certainly the S6 mentioned in the original post, it's no trouble at-all to fly a standard circuit.

More broadly, wing-down and crabbed work on most aeroplanes, but other characteristics than the undercarriage can make the techniques work differently well on different aeroplanes.

G

Going back a little........ I learned to fly on Auster Autocrats, and did at least 100 hours on them since, so I was ummm - surprised - by this remark;

What I learned, and the Auster demonstrated admirably, was that gyroscopic precession ruled, so of course it's the prop, and to a much lesser extent the rotating bits in the engine, but the direction of rotation governs which way the precession will operate.

On a trip in the Navy's Sea Fury, the pilot showed me - very carefully - just how sensitive that aircraft was to injudicious throttle opening at the start of the roll, and careless raising of the tail during it, while still below the airspeed needed to give the rudder some bite.

And whereas in an Auster a ground loop was always a possible punishment for poor handling, in a Sea Fury it was pretty much inevitable if the pilot was careless.

Does aircraft inertia affect the choice of X-wind technique? I always use wing down in a Jodel, but often crab in a Pa28.
I don't think it's the nosewheel that makes the difference.

I don't think it's inertia either.

I would say it's mostly the lateral and directional static stability requirements and control power, plus the wingtip geometry.

G