Starting Out - Advice
 

Hello everyone,

First post, go easy :)

Since early teens I've wanted to learn to fly, always gazed up at the skies and wished I was up there! Fast forward 10-15 years (mid-20s) and I now have the money to learn.

I had a trial lesson a few years back, I was hugely looking forward to it but quite nervous as it was a very windy day and I'm not a great flyer anyway.. unfortunately it was very turbulent and I came away feeling slightly less enthusiastic to pursue my dream, but far from about to give up. Last weekend, I had a second trial lesson (both at EGBO - halfpenny green). Once again it was fairly windy and turbulent but I was much more relaxed this time and greatly enjoyed it.

I think I have caught 'the flying bug'. I'm based down in London, however finishing up with my full time job here shortly, so I thinking about doing some intensive training late Summer back at EGBO (cheaper, seems a good airfield to learn at, instructors good). I have a couple of questions for you all:

(1) I have Pooley's Air Law on order, plan to study this asap and aim to sit it as soon as I can. Would people advise trying to get most of the theory out the way with first and then focus on flying after? Could I plausibly get through all the theory without practical flying experience or would some modules require practical experience?

(2) Looking to get a class 2 medical done around Birmingham/West Mids area as it looks half the price of London! Can anyone recommend any places?

(3) I've now had a lesson with both (Andy? I think..) at The Flying School Limited & last weekend with Bob Kirk at Wolverhampton Flight Training. Both seemed good. Can anyone recommend either of these schools?


Any other general advice/stuff I should be aware of before ploughing lots of time & money into this exciting journey?!

Thanks!

Just one bit of advice really, as others here will give you chapter & verse on all the pitfalls, highs/lows to expect.

Get the medical before you spend any more cash, and if you get Class II NEVER pay up front for any flying no matter how persuasive they seem.

PS make that two bits....

Sounds like good advice! Do I need to purchase/take anything for the medical?

Can anyone recommend a cheap place to get it done near London (I have a car so can travel)?

THIS.... This, is good advice.

Do read the Air Law book well, and absorb the information as it's the one exam to do before you go solo. Everyone does it in a different order. I practically did all my flying, then sat a week's intensive training, and within 2 weeks, had done my final skills test. If I were to do it again, I would, personally, do some reading for everything until I reach solo standard. At that point, I'd sit all the tests in a very short time period (maybe do an intensive course to brush up on what you've learned).

Once you've done that, go solo and do all the rest of the flying.

Only problem with this is that the exam passes only last for 18 months (I believe), so if for whatever reason you don't take your skills test within those 18 months, you've wasted a lot of time and money doing them. However, if you're doing a month's intensive course, this certainly shouldn't be a problem.

You could do all the theory before flying, but a bit of flying experience certainly helps with some of the topics.

Can't recommend any schools up there unfortunately, but in terms of choosing a school, read reviews, look at the aircraft and decide which one you prefer.

My advice would be to enjoy the process of learning to fly, do not rush it and let things consolidate. Read anything and everything you can. The licence will come along when you are ready, do not just aim to get a licence, aim to be the best pilot you can be.
Unfortunately history shows that many people once they gain a licence let it lapse fairly soon afterwards, so just take your time and have fun.

One bit of advise, but not really on what you have asked...

Do not pay over the odds for additional ground school training for the exams. I am not a natural learner from text books but I passed all the exams just by reading the books a few chapters at a time in the evenings and practising the past papers. There is no need to pay for courses or ground school. The exams and the information you need to retain are really are not that hard.

If you have been out of school for a while and investing the money on a license then I understand the feeling that you may want to take the extra tuition just be sure, but honestly you will waste your money.

In total you need about 2 hours ground school max to learn the nav stuff/filling out a plog.

I know everyone is different but honestly I passed all exams first time just by reading and doing past exams. I passed all the exams in the beginning and I'm not sure that was the right thing to do - For example learning how to use the VOR before going solo so some of the theory only really started making sense when we covered it in the practical lessons.

Thanks. Yes, not planning to take any ground school - books & past papers should be enough I'm hoping! :)

Hi... one thing with the Medical will be the eye-sight test. If you fail to read the eye-chart the Doctor will ask you to have your eyes tested at an opticians and to buy corrective glasses... Then come back at a later date to do that test again.


Maybe a free eye-test at Tescos, or other venue could save you having to make a return visit to the A.M.E.

There are some of the exam subjects that don't make anything like as much sense until you've done a reasonable amount of flying, such as navigation. Air Law is the place to start, as most of what you have to learn has no relation to reality at all.


Oh, and in case nobody else mentions this: DO NOT PAY UP FRONT.


(Several of us say this to every newcomer. Some of whom ignore us and then lose all their money.)

I have a cheapish AME in Wantage, Oxon - if that's interesting PM me

I would like to qualify the DO NOT PAY UP FRONT part. While this is definitely sound advice, what is also sound is having enough money available so you can fly as and when you can. A lot of the basic skills in flying can only be acquired through repetition so the more regular your lessons (particularly early on in your training) the quicker you'll pick things up which will save you money on having to do remedial flying if you stop/start a lot due to cashflow.

Yeah, just to add an alternative to the 'don't pay upfront' crowd... I paid £4.5k upfront to an established and long running school at a Class D airport. That banked me around 35 hours of C152 time. It was great knowing that if the weather was good and the instructor was available I could walk the 400metres from work to the school and go flying, or when I was doing solo circuits I could pop out during my lunch break and get some time in.
Meant I didn't have to worry about funding anything for a huge portion of my training (in fact, I only needed to find 5 hours extra at the end).

I know why people say 'don't pay upfront' (the school may close unexpectedly / you may not actually get on with the school's training methods etc.) but for me it was key to me getting my licence.

Seconding (even thirding) two things from previous:

There are advantages to getting a discount for upfront payment - but there's a risk involved. My suspicion is that the risk is much smaller than people think - people only make a noise when it goes wrong, never when (in the vast majority of cases) it goes right.

Be careful of investing heavily in getting a licence if you're not going to be able to keep flying afterwards. Either because it's too expensive, or because you only have enough to fly the minimum hours and so it becomes an obligation to fly, rather than a pleasure.

My tuppence. Safe flights, Sam.

Hi ac ppl. The book 'Handling Light Aircraft' by Julien Evans might be useful to you. Some of the posters here have been flying for many decades. We never cease to get a thrill from piloting aircraft and looking down at the world passing by and we know we're enjoying a privilege denied to mere groundlings. Good luck with the course!

Too right - just think about it: if the school is wanting to borrow money from you, and is offering what amounts to an over-the-odds interest rate, this can only be because they have already tried to borrow money from the bank at normal rates and been turned down. You're better at risk assessment than the banks, are you?

I'm a little confused about this. So, companies like OAA and CTC, who ask for lump sums up front throughout the course of the training... Have they tried to get a loan and failed? I know they're a bit different to some smaller schools, but still

Thanks for the great advice all :)

I don't think the flying school I am looking to practice with offers a pre-pay discount. It has also been long standing so fingers crossed no issues.

Found a very cheap AME for London - £80 class 2 initial in Ealing. Needless to say they're quite booked up! Going to get that done asap then I'll hopefully have the green light.

Just ask yourself why would you get cheaper flying by paying upfront, does the cost of instruction,maintenance rent, rates and fuel magically reduce because a punter sticks 5 grand in their bank??????

Fair comment I suppose, but I guess that from a business perspective, it's a good idea as you then have some commitment from the student that they're not going to go elsewhere (though I'd never pay in full, and I'd never pay up front until I'd at least had a couple of flights to ensure I like the training environment)

Ah, that'll be from someone who has never run a flight school! Neither have I, but I can imagine that cashflow is an expensive (loans from bank/overdrafts) nightmare. Nobody gets rich running a flight school!

Thus, getting cash up front allows cost savings (and stress).

That really should be because the acrft are clean and reliable, the ground facilities are to a decent standard for the type of customer base you expect in the aviation world, smart and customer orientated staff including the instructors, and because the word of mouth advertising should be good enough....

Of course it should be, but it never is. Same reason car dealerships will offer you a service plan on a car. It's cheaper than paying each time you come for a service, but the service has to be done at the dealer.

I do think that PA28181 should try and see this from the school's (real-world) perspective. If nothing else, there are clearly reasons why all (?) schools offer price packages. So it clearly makes sense to them...

Sorry tobster but comparing car dealerships with aviation doesn't work, totally different business model/customer base.

Sam I don't need to see it from their perspective as a customer I am only interested in the service level from my previous reply from these "businesses, and that's all they are nothing more, as for the "it's what suits them" is just that, it's not for the customers benefit even with a little discount as you are basically stuck with them no matter how bad it could get once you are committed.

Ah, so because you wouldn't take that option, you think the option shouldn't exist?

Don't forget that in many (the majority of) cases, people do pay a lump up front and both they and the school are very happy to have done so. Win-win all around...

It is totally different, but the principle of doing a discount if you pay up front for a service that ties you in to one business is found all over the place. It's the same thing. You could pay £800 for a service plan, and have a horrendous experience, but you're still tied to that dealer. In terms of a business model, they're all fairly much of a muchness no matter what business you're in. provide good service, make good money, that's it.

Of course it's for the business's benefit, otherwise it's not a business, it's a charity. If it was horrendous, there would always be a way to get your money back (unless, of course, the school closed - but how often has that happened, compared to those that do this every day?)

I'm not saying that you're wrong or anything like that, not in any respect, I personally wouldn't pay a massive amount up front, but, take FIS for example. If you want to do some hour building there, you can pay up front for 25 hours and each hour would be 150 EUR. However, if you book for 50 hours, it's only 148 EUR per hour. Now, I know this equates to only £100 saved, so maybe not the best example, but it's a big company, and if I had the money, I wouldn't hesitate to do a block booking with them.

No not in the slightest. Just if it is offered, my advice to any new starter will not change from "Don't Pay Upfront" I wouldn't, but no-one has to take any advice from me you don't even know if I can fly.......so my advice is just as most here not worth the pixels it's written on, as a future pilot you will be making some possibly life threatening decisions that will not be sorted out on a forum so pay upfront if happy,

It seems this thread has devolved into a pay upfront or not debate. My 2c on that part is, it is entirely dependent on a whole lot of factors so one cannot be absolutely certain it is appropriate for all possible scenarios. As a general rule of thumb, it's probably a good idea to hang onto your money for as long as possible. Having said that, I myself paid up front because the club I trained at has been teaching people to fly for 70 years and will probably be doing so long after I'm gone. YMMV.

learning to fly? another approach entirely!
 

ac_ppl, I am somewhat surprised that nobody on this thread has suggested learning to fly properly....WITHOUT an engine! They are called gliders.
As you live near London, why not visit the London Gliding Club? near Dunstable,
or my club, near Banbury, called Shenington.
That way you get started on the basics. Effects of controls. Weather - very important! safety...looking out for other aircraft, etc etc.

And if you fail your medical, you are probably still OK to fly solo in a glider.....

I started in gliders, got the PPL later and did a lot of tug flying which somebody else pays for!

It won't hurt to get a bit of real flying in while waiting for your medical!

Happy landings!

Do gliders hours count towards your ppl?

Thats just written off all his chances of learning to fly then. Yep fly gliders, they don't go anywhere, except round in circles, you will stand around all day freezing to get a flight after you have pulled,pushed and generally dogsbodied heavy fibreglass around hoping to get some in.:)

I suggest paramotoring at least you go where/when you want.

Hahaha, pretty much sums up gliding in the UK

I love glider flying. Haven't done anywhere near as much as I'd like, but I did start with it and found it thoroughly enjoyable.

However, as the hours don't really count (or a very small percentage do), it's the kind of thing that isn't as important as powered flying, if you just want to get your hours and your license.

I am not going to argue though that glider flying, in my experience, is a bit more involved and certainly trains with regards to weather etc, and as Mary says, once you've got your PPL and some gliding experience under your belt, you may find that the gliding club gives you control of a tug :)

Flight schools go bust much much more frequently than any other business that you'd pay up front for a service that you expect to be provided over an extended time period. I know, and have taught, five people who have lost between them many thousands of pounds each at different schools (over 20 years granted).

And Mary's advice is good. I've no time for those who dismiss gliding. You'll be a better pilot for having done some.

That's as may be, however, if flying a glider costs you money, and you want to spend money for your powered flight licences, and none of the hours count towards a PPL, there won't be many takers. Aviation is expensive enough as it is, without splashing money about on other avenues than the one you are interested in.

Well I have done "Some" at Lasham and the Black Moutains, it is certainly different to powered flying by a long way. But, it is not in the same "type" of flying that the majority want, which is get in start up take off go where you want land and come back again with other pilots/friends/family, this is not an option for glider pilots.

It is IMHO purely "sport" flying and yes glider pilots who are experienced are probably some of the best handlers of wind/WX/thermals for staying aloft and physical handling ability, BUT it's not in the same league as powered flying, and I wouldn't go picking up gliding skills as a precursor to powered flying as you will if on a budget spend much needed cash and time probably getting rid of your different habits, and as been said not much benefit to logging SEP hours.

Urgh how boring! That's not flying, that's driving a bus, and I'd query your assertion that it's what the majority want to do. The £200 bacon roll is one reason so many new ppl holders give up so soon.
But fair enough, if that's what the OP wants, then I'd agree that gliding won't miss him.
And you are wrong about transferrable skills - gliding skills make good power pilots, but it doesn't work as well the other way round.

Gliding is great fun and teaches good handling and airmanship skills which I think transfer usefully to powered flying. I've only had a few trips in gliders though.

The thing I found frustrating is that the gliding clubs I have experience of expect you to spend a whole day helping out in order to get flying. This is a great social experience and very enjoyable but if you only have half a day spare it's hard to get airborne; picking a flying club and booking a slot that suits you makes life easier for the terminally busy.

If you're likely to be near London for a while, Clacton do a Super Cub PPL and that's a good way to learn proper stick and rudder skills. And more fun than a Cessna.

If there's a discount for paying in advance, take it but use a credit card so if the school does go bust you will be able to claim against the card company.

I've been gliding once. An entire evening spent doing stuff on the ground for ten minutes in the air, at a cost per minute not that much less than powered flying. An interesting experience but not something I'm going to do very much of.

I've never understood why glider pilots take such a superior attitude, as demonstrated on this thread. Sure, it's a perfectly fine flying hobby, if that's what you enjoy. Each to their own and all that. That's not a reason to go on about it how it's the only way to learn to fly, or make it seem somehow superior.

My personal experience of gliding is that it's pretty boring, as much as any kind of flying ever can be, and disproportionately expensive. You get towed up, you descend slowly, you land, rinse and repeat. At an hourly cost exceeding flying the Pitts, which I promise is a LOT more fun. Now if you fly out of Minden, it can be a lot more exciting - I have a friend who got his PPL-G precisely so he could do that. But most places aren't Minden (next door to the Sierra Nevada, and home to several glider flying records).

And that's the US version of gliding, with powered, paid-for tows, a lot like renting a powered aircraft except without an engine or the ability to go anywhere. As I understand the UK version, and as described here, it consists primarily of standing round all day getting cold, in return for maybe 15 minutes of flying. No doubt a great, if chilly, social activity, but that's about it.

At Shenington this week....a small gliding club....
 

Monday and Tuesday provided good soaring weather. Alan L. did 360 k, Steve T. managed 500 k, and GP flew 660 k. Visitors from the Oxford Club also achieved great distances, David managed 365.7 on Monday and 302.4 on Tuesday.

No doubt the larger clubs, eg. Dunstable (London), Lasham, Husbands Bosworth did even better.

In the United States, alas, the gliding scene is pretty much as described by some of the disgruntled posters above. Americans find it much more difficult to cooperate in a club environment.

I am no longer young enough or fit enough to fly solo, instruct, tug, or even to attach a winch cable to the belly hook of a glider, but I spent this morning helping out at the launchpoint, there were no thermals, but a good training day, and a lad of 15 did three solos, after a series of practice launch failures.
And on my flight, for the first time I didn't bother to wear a parachute! alas, it didn't make it any easier to struggle out of the seat after landing.