Are Shoreham flying schools so busy.........
 

...that they don't need to make any effort to encourage new students?

I had been flying with Omega Flying School before the owner decided he'd had enough and decided to do a runner with all our money. For me this is a lifestyle choice, late 40's, more time to follow up interests and the money to achieve my lifelong ambition, to gain my PPL.
As Omega is now no more I decided to investigate other schools on the airfield.

The first was Sussex Flying Club. The young girl was very pleasant on the desk and introduced me to the CFI. I told him of my woes and that I was looking to find a new flying school and the reasons behind it. To be honest I left after 5 minutes feeling rather short changed. If I am to hand over 200 of my hard earned a couple of times a month then the least I would expect would be to be shown the aircraft I would have the pleasure of flying in. Not a chance.... despite the weather grounding all aircraft and a few staff milling around the school, I was swiftly shown around the office and a rate card thrust in my mitts. Next please!

Perry Air was my next visit if only to get my logbook signed off by an ex-Omega instructor. Started off very well, a kind chap who took the time out to show me the aircraft, the hangar and to be honest a very well spent hour. This was better; making me feel welcome and a sense of an environment where I would be happy to finish my training. I left it a couple of weeks and went back to have a chat with my prospective instructor who was running half hour late that morning. Not an issue I though, I would sit in the club waiting room and read the Operations Manual. Well the chap on the desk had different ideas. He suggested in no uncertain terms that it might be more beneficial if I took a trip to the terminal and had myself a coffee whilst waiting, despite immediately to his right a very well used kettle and all the equipment required to make a potential new recruit a welcome coffee. Wow, grumpy was an understatement. Despite his advanced years, I am used to finding dragons at the doors to the Airport Lounges, not at the "first impression" stage of a business that I would have imagined would be chomping at the heels of new business.

Don't get me wrong, I smile when I think of the lengths that these companies feel they don't need to go to in order to secure current and new business; hence my question. Are flying schools doing so well, they are able to pick and choose their customers?

I can't comment on the other specifics in the rest of your post, but you should not pay up front for multiple lessons for exactly this reason. If, for some reason, you feel you need or want to do that, make sure you pay with a credit (NOT debit) card. That way the card company will have to reimburse you if something like this happens.

I paid up front by credit card as the protection is there in the event of; however that really is not the crux of my post.....The same thing can happen buying a car, a holiday, an appliance... this is why the protection a credit card gives you is far more beneficial than using cash even if the company goes belly up and you have an actual item to which you can claim against.

"Hello Mr CFI. I didn't choose your flying school to start with, preferring to go with one of your competitors. Now that they've ripped me off, I'd like you to teach me instead."

I tend to get grumpy when I'm invited to pick up the pieces left by situations like this as well.

And at your second encounter, when the instructor was running late I'd say that the chap on the desk did the right thing - in other words he was protecting his staff from further interruption and ensuring that his existing customers weren't inconvenienced by any more delay. Existing customers deserve loyalty from a business; prospects don't.

That said, there is no excuse for rudeness. Some basic customer care principles would be a good thing at many schools.

Don't get into business, then.
Sorry, but a customer is entitled to give his money to whoever he chooses for whatever reason.
And if he got unlucky and came back to you, I think you just got a great opportunity.
If you mistreat prospective customers, there won't be any new ones and you'll only have the existing ones.
Not a wise idea, in my book.

Ah, so it wasn't "all [y]our money", it was the bank's money.

Fully agree with Dirtyprop. This should be looked on as an opportunity to take work from a competitor, no matter what the circumstance. I expect Mr Heston is either extracting the yellow liquid or does not run a business.

Both, as in yes I was, and yes I do, actually.

That approach has got more small businesses into difficulties than almost any other. Being cautious and making sure propects (for that's all the OP was at the time) are qualified (ie are going to follow through and aren't just tyre kickers) is really important or you will find yourself doing loads of selling and no earning.

What a business needs is a way of attracting people who are going to be good customers and actively discouraging anybody who isnt so that they dont waste time on them. It could be that having grumpy front desk staff is a strategy that ensures only really keen prospects follow through - flying schools that have kept going must have something right in terms of survival of the fittest (Darwin-style) dont you think?

Try "The Real Flying Company" Very friendly, professional and nicely kept aircraft.

Yes, that's the norm in some places :)
 

I can't speak of your airfield, but this is a little bit general experience ín many other places (schools, clubs) too.

So this just created a sudden surge of unexpected demand for the remaining schools, for which they may not be prepared for right away. :)

This makes you a second priority behind students wanting to learn to fly for making a career. You want to learn in a cosy and leasurely pace, your horizon is to gain, who knows how much you will later fly, your flight currency may be on a low level after your PPL obtained, making it risky to lend aircraft to you later on....! :)
You aren't aware that 190 of that goes to buy fuel, pay for insurance, pay low wages to CFIs.... flight training is a low-margin, yet risky business, especially with non-career students.

THis is a classic behavioural test :) If you want to be a pilot, you have to have to courage to ask, threaten or trick getting coffee from that cattle :)


You need to get used to this and handle this like a man. Imagine how grumpy they can get when you fail to follow instructions during training :)

Blimey ! Between rrizoli and Heston or, to put it another way, between a rock and a hard place. You both need a refresher at the Charm Academy. You both need to think in terms of; trowel, schmooze and laying it on thick.

This is a would be customer and student for Heaven's sake - they ain't exactly thick on the ground. rrizoli your comments are outrageous. Please tell me they are 'tongue in cheek'? If any instructor had got grumpy with me during training, they would have received short shrift and I'd have been on my bike looking elsewhere.

If I were to arrive at an FTO with somewhere between five and ten thousand readies to spend I would expect red carpet in any and every conceivable way - not expected to wheedle and cajole a cup of bloody coffee from the grumpy git behind the counter.

Great Cornholio, welcome to the world of GA in Britain. Based on my fifty four years of experience I can't promise that you'll find any improvements. Most like to think that they are doing you a favour in allowing you into their aviation emporium - so you'd better toe the line - or else !

What an absolute load of b**l*cks, this is typical of British companies attitudes to customers, anyone here who is defending the outrageous and unforgivable service to a potential customer, is someone who needs to take a long hard look at their quirky idea of customer service.

Yes of course, my answers are a bit of friendly teasing. I was experiencing the same to some extent in my country and I am not fond of it, at all!

But on a serious note: there are plenty of rough things that can happen in aviation, turbulence, weather, engine playing up, arguing with ATC, fellow aviators cracking jokes about your landings, your instructor having a bad day.... so it's a good idea to focus on the goal, and ignore the unimportant.

By the way, a friend of mine got really fed up with his instructor during his training, he felt he was treated as a piece of sh...t. After some time, he raised his voice and told the instructor to stop because the instructor's attitude handicaps his training. Guess what? The instructor was content with this and became very nice afterwards. So hence my advice: focus on the goal and ignore the unimportant things. Walking down a red carpet to PPL is not important. Getting there is.

To use your expression: "Walking down the red carpet to your PPL" is very much a part of one's training experience. How you start is reflected in how you finish and points in between.

The initial experience emphatically does not come into "ignoring the unimportant", it is part of the goal. There should be no such thing as any 'unimportant' part of one's training. One cannot put a price on friendliness, cheerfulness and a welcoming atmosphere in the FTO they are a necessary accompaniment of business efficiency aimed at giving value for money.

I'm shocked that attitiudes such as those aired by some commentators are still held. We seem to have learned very little in GA which is, after all, a service industry.

Unfortunately, it doesn't change after you have your license. Flying club/schools seem to attract those with an elitist attitude bias, deserved or not. Instructors & receptionists seem to suffer the worst from this.
Obviously there will be exceptions, but I encountered the same attitudes 30 years ago when training, and still do whenever I venture near my on-airfield club/school (thankfully not frequently as I have my own aircraft).

My advice is grit your teeth, pay the money, get the training and then go flying!
It'll be worth it in the end.

Cornholio,

I actually stay well away from Shoreham, I really didn't have a positive experience landing there after I had passed my PPL. Not from ATC, not from the people supposed to welcome you (where they take a great big bite out of your pocket too), not from the flying school I visited there. Over the last few years, I have been making a note of the friendly places I have visited, and of the more unfriendly places too. Like everything in the UK you just need to sift through the cr*p to find the good stuff!

I have had a very positive experience learning at Biggin Hill (which I understand is a bit of a drive from you). Both Alouette Flying Club (bit cheaper than S&K) and Surrey & Kent. I found them both very welcoming, very nice and always got a cup of tea for you, even if you're on your first visit. Send me a PM if you're interested and I'll give you some tips on both clubs.

I wouldn't have spent all that money on going to a place I didn't feel welcomed, or a place that didn't feel was right for me. I went through quite a few before settling on Surrey & Kent, did trial lessons in many places too. You get the ATPL academies, the real flying "school", the club that tries to be the school, the club that is very much a club and the few instructors that have their own business teaching on their own plane. Not all will suit your style (or your pocket). I opted for a club that aspired to be a school for the training (as I wanted the availability of the instructor, as well as the slightly more regimented learning).

I am not sure where you are based, but there may be a few places I could strongly recommend such as Cambridge, Southend Flying Club, Alouette (biggin), S&K (biggin), Jersey Aeroclub, Goodwood.... amongst others. Always felt welcomed, always felt a part of the team, and always felt that it was money well spent.

I also agree that this kind of behaviour is crazy, especially after every single school out there having had such a bad winter! Surely they'd rejoice to have a new customer, and bend over backwards to get you hooked in!

I do agree however that part of the training is dealing with pressure, as has been mentioned. But I refuse to think that it is acceptable to put you under that stress outside of the cockpit environment during training.

Jeez folks, lighten up! You are a lot of delicate little flowers.

Nobody is defending rudeness or poor customer service. Any business needs to put on a welcoming face to the outside world.

But I've spent the last 30 years running a consultancy that advised small businesses on planning and strategy, and I can tell you that the worst drain on a small business's resources is the prospective customer who doesn't really have any intention to buy but is just being a "tourist". In fact the very worst are those who get you to design a solution for them, write up a proposal and cost it for them - they then take it to your competitor and get them to do the work for a cheaper price. I'm not saying that is directly relevant here, but the general principle is - prospects are prospects, they dont become customers until they have parted with some cash. Maybe the OP would have had a different experience if he'd asked to book a lesson at each school he visited?

Oh and by the way - I now run my own flying school - about 30% of folk who turn up to enquire become right pains in the backside because they never get on with it and just keep coming back for another 90 minute chat and three cups of coffee. Walter Mitty had nothing on them. I'd do anything to get them to go away. Flying schools are businesses after all.

Yes. Who remembers the phone company whose business model was selling to people who couldn't get BT phones, because they'd got disconnected for failing to pay their bills?

Guess what? - they got lots of customers, and then went bust, because their customers didn't pay their bills.

I went for a job interview once ... and got used (during the interview) as a free consultant, and it turned out they didn't really have a job anyway.


So a few years later the same company invite me for interview again. My response to the agent: "that's £500 cash in advance for attending the interview, deductible against my first month's salary when I've got the job".

Squeegee Longtail

You're absolutely right. I now do not go back to those places where I had a less than welcoming experience. Here's one from my archive ! Having flown into Compton Abbas one fine day, not by design but due to a problem at my home airfield, I politely asked reception if they would be kind enough to phone my home airfield and ask if all was now well and offering to pay for the call. I got a blank refusal from an extremely stroppy receptionist.

There were altogether about six of us who had flown in and after a while someone produced a cell phone and we made our own call. We were clear to return.

I haven't been back to Compton for just over two years. This attitude was mirrored by a the experience of a friend in slightly different circumstance but still negative on the part of Compton.

I've only been to Shoreham once a couple of years ago for an overnight stop on my way back to Scotland, and had a very positive experience with one of the flight schools and its staff.

I was sitting on the spotters bench planning my flight when I struck up a conversation with a guy who turned out to be a flight instructor from the flight school above the restaurant in the main building, he asked about my plane and intended flight . He offered to go upstairs and print out the latest weather then spent a fair bit of time interpreting and discussing what conditions I could expect along my intended route. The net result I delayed the flight till the next day.

Can't remember the guys name but he appeared to be in his late 50's and he offered me his professional advice, use of his computers and his time all without the request or expectation of remuneration and knowing there would be no future business or selling to a guy who was just passing through.

Decent bloke, school receptionist was friendly, all in all a very positive experience of Shoreham.

Pic of my visit

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Maule...tar/2525084/L/

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Maule...tar/2525084/L/

I don't think your experience is atypical. It's UK GA. I'm well glad I'm out of it. GA can suffer from the small town mentality as it were. I'd often pitch up and be treated more like a trespasser than a paying customer at some airfields. And as for flights schools they're very unpredictable - keep looking until you find a good one. If they don't treat you well when you come to them as potential business then they're not going to treat you well once you've signed up and they have your membership fee or fee or worse you pay up front for their block rates.

Cue one of those discussions about the duty people do or don't owe to other pilots whom they think might be about to go off and do something potentially risky?

[Rant]Not just in this context, but generally: I'm simply amazed that anyone could refuse such a simple, and effectively costless, courtesy. I know that people do, but can't understand why.

Reading some of the earlier posts in this thread, I'm also struck by the attitude of some of the experiences and comments that I would summarise as: "if there's no immediate benefit to me, why should I behave kindly to you?"

Perhaps if those subscribing to such a view were to have a flat tyre on a rainy Friday evening at the side of a busy motorway, they might wish heartily to meet someone who doesn't agree with it...... :* [\Rant]

Ah, that feels better! :O

Ah, but, what if it isn't costless?


Suppose a handling service had been available, a bargain at £30, including unlimited free use of the phone, and the punter had refused to buy the handling service, but then asked for the free phone calls anyway?


In that case the cost to the phone owner is the £30 fee they haven't taken. Let everybody have free phone calls and an entire income stream bites the dust :D:=:(:ok: !!!

I didn't read that as being the context but, even if it was, £30 for a phone call does seem a trifle steep....... ;)

Cue mandatory handling thread creep..... :8

You probably mean opportunity cost. i.e., the imaginary loss of revenue. The real cost would have been the cost charged by the landline phone company, not the 30 GPB.

Alternatively, set unreasonably high prices, with no granularity between zero calls and infinite number of calls, and 99% of the revenue stream opportunity bites the dust in the very same way! So not only generousity but greed also kills revenue streams. The chap offered to cover the cost of the call, but it was not accepted. So they waited until someone brought a mobile phone and made their call over that. So in economical terms, the opportunity cost to the owner wasn't his imaginary 30 GPB, but the much lower cost of 1 mobile call. Economically speaking, both the pilots and the owner lost the opportunity to make a deal and help each other (and the mobile phone company won :) ) This is why it makes sense to be moderately nice and flexible in business - not too generous, not too greedy....

I think the main problem is that we don't understand the concept of "service" in the UK any more. I am not encouraged by some of the replies on this thread and I certainly wouldn't put any business in the way of one or two respondents.

I think that when I first considered learning to fly, I did think that the flight school was getting a significant proportion of my hourly rate as profit. Twenty odd years a PPL and several hundred hours later, I understand that not many people in the training world appear to have made their millions and retired.

I can only defend the Shoreham operation by stating that their ATC is one of the busiest and most professional I have come across and as far as flight schools are concerned, I booked a trial lesson with Advance Helicopters last year in their Schweizer before deciding whether or not to turn to the 'dark side' of rotary flight, and found them friendly, welcoming and efficient.

Mind you, I spoke to them a week earlier, booked in during the week rather than a weekend, turned up on time and had researched the aircraft I was to fly.

Perhaps Jonazarno and the flight school he chose just combined to have their bad day on the same day.

Hi The Great Cornholio
Sorry to hear about what happened with Omega, as I understand they were becoming quieter as the months went on over the last couple of years. Have you considered FTA on the airfield for training? I know they train PPL students both full and part time on Warrior IIs and DA40s?

nkt2000

You are so right ! What frightens me is that we, as a nation, are supposed to be running a service economy.


rrizoli

The true and correct cost to Compton Abbas is partly quantifiable. If I went there three or four times a year as was my habit - with passengers, the landing fee plus our cafeteria spending x two years is now lost.

With no attempt to explain their policy, no attempt at even a grudging apology, I felt justified in spreading the word about Compton's lack of elementary politeness and good manners. So, I did just that. That bit can't be quantified with any accuracy.

Some of the people who run these places shouldn't be running a newspaper round - with apologies to the boys and girls who do such a good job. Might I suggest, that if our visiting experience is not a good one then we would be doing all our fellow aviators a huge favour in listing and publishing our personal experiences.

Such action might result in an improvement. We can live in hope !

Oh I feel so sorry for the poor chap it would seem that no matter which flying school he goes to, he is not going to be happy. No doubt there is a school which rolls out the red carpet and gives a golden service, but then I don't suppose he would be happy with the cost, so would moan about that. It would also be of benefit for him to learn of the enormous amount of work done at a flying school in the morning. If he expects to sit down and chat, there would be no flying done, as nothing would be ready for the day.

+1 for the Real Flying Company. I was one of their first PPLs 13 years ago! Great club friendly, well maintained / looked after aircraft and lots of professional pilot instructors. Husband and wife team, very friendly atmosphere. Don't let Omega going bust put you off, I started with Southern and they went the same way!

Always! And I don't think it's a UK-specific thing. With the "wrong" conditions in an economy, the verb "to serve" can lose its meaning quite quickly.

In my past 4 years in GA PPL training and flying, I am going through my 4th base/school by now. But I am NOT bitter about any of them! They all had certain ideas and logic in their setup, and I took the advantage of the prioritized benefits I was after, and for this, I put up with the disadvantages for a limited time. There were mutual advantages, but as needs/circumstances changed, we parted in peace. I was quite open to all of the school owners / club managers on what made me go away, and I accepted that they had a different view on the same things. While I was quite open to tell anyone my personal experience with them, I didn't go about bitching and bad-mouthing them. I always give a balanced view on these schools / clubs, including the upsides and downsides. I noticed that the club / school owners accept critiscism better this way, and I can also confirm that with enough pressure from the clients, they change. So there is a reason to hope, but one must be realistic and should not expect immediate miracles.

You misunderstand: the problem that the OP and subsequent posters had were nothing to do with me; I was just reacting to a report about what I thought was a particularly bad example of bad customer service. It was not my own experience. The school where I trained (Northamptonshire School of Flying) was exemplary and I'd recommend them to anyone.

There seem to be a few who continue to defend poor service. Permit me to remind them that in any context, cash and customers are king !

If the customer is always right.... they'd know what to do and we wouldn't need flying instructors or schools!

That comment gets full marks for idiocy! Being right and 'knowing what to do' are about as far removed as one could get. Don't muddy the waters, we're discussing elementary standards of good service.

Well, IMHO the customer isn't always right. But how you tell them, and how you persuade them to buy what is genuinely right for them, is what professional and ethical selling is all about. It's also the start of good customer service.

Yebbut it helps if the customer walks in with a smile and a nice word for the poor underpaid woman who has to sit at a reception desk all day taking crap from the world and his dog.

I agree. Courtesy is a two way street: perhaps one of the most valuable, yet most inexpensive and easily acquired personal attributes. It's a shame that not everyone sees it that way.