Strange encounter in the clouds tonight
 

Went out for a flight tonight at 8pm, fancied climbing up to 5000 and having a mess around in the clouds just to keep my hand in. It was a beautiful summer evening, but as I entered a rather wispy cloud I see rain but nothing was hitting or staying on the windshield, it was like really dry snow??? , I turn out of the cloud and for the next 1/4 mile it continued to " fall" but appeard to be coming at me vertically when viewed out the side window, strange indeed. Finished the evenings flight by flying over a local beach town where the local RC guys had commandeered a football pitch for a camp-out and flying their machines. So nothing else for it than pull the power, drop the flaps and stop in for an excellent display of an enthusiasts 4 stroke Gypsy Moth doing aerobatics. The club members snapped some pics of the Maule parked next to there models and I was off home with no more "snow" in the clouds !!!

What was the OAT at 5000-ish?

About 1 or 2c

VFR I presume? How does that work? It's certainly verboten where I fly.

Unless the aircraft is equipped / certified for such operation and the pilot is also rated. I suspect both criteria are met in this case.

SRD is correct, all certs and kit in order but that does raise an interesting question, my understanding of the required equipment for IFR flight is your aircraft must have the equipment necessary to utilise (navigate and land) the navaids on your intended route of the flight, destination or alternate, but what if you only had access to an aircraft with a wet compass and a six pack and no nav radios or gps nav and just wanted to practice holding headings and altitudes in the clouds but outside controlled airspace and your take off and destination fields were reporting VFR for miles.

I know it is not advisable but is it illegal ?

" So nothing else for it than pull the power, drop the flaps and stop in for an excellent display of an enthusiasts 4 stroke Gypsy Moth doing aerobatics. The club members snapped some pics of the Maule parked next to there models and I was off home with no more "snow" in the clouds !!!"

I should imagine landing on a football field unannounced was more illegal than flying in cloud!!!

So long as the aircraft is certified for IMC flight, and you have at least a valid IMC/IR(R), no.


MJ:ok:

You most probably encountered Virga clouds, from the Latin for 'rod' or 'branch' are a trail of precipitation that fall from the underside of a cloud but evaporate before it can reach the earth's surface.

Not sure, it was a fly-in of sorts.

Were you in the cloud tops? Could have been ice Chrystals?


MJ:ok:

You need the right state of mind, too - if you think to yourself "I've decided I'm flying VFR just right now" then it would be illegal, but if you think to yourself "I'm flying IFR just right now" then all is OK.

Was it fun?

Everything time I line up, look out over the cowl up the strip, go to full power, lift the tail and up up and away is fun. In fact it's more than fun it's what I live for. Sad but true :ok:

So you're saying the flight was also conducted on an IFR plan using promulgated routes?

I got the impression from the tenor of the original post that the flight was a local flight not conducted on an IFR plan nor on IFR routes and outside controlled airspace. Was I wrong?

If not I cannot see how this is a smart idea or even legal. What if some other idiot is doing the same thing in the same piece of cloud?

Oh good grief! Another flying club lawyer sniping from the armchair. Do you know where piperboy is based? Not saying that makes him bulletproof but I'd say it reduces the likelihood of conflict to near zero. Not zero, but near zero and if he and the other 'idiot', as you term them, are happy to accept the trivial risk for some harmless fun then good luck to them. I rather enjoy that sort of thing too and before you cavil, at the speeds I fly I do believe I AM legal.

Oh, and to piperboy, I'd guess what you were seeing was ice crystals. I've seen them myself. Quite beautiful and mesmerising.

Collision risk in IMC OCA
 

I think I'm right in saying that there hasn't been a SINGLE mid-air between 2 light aircraft in the UK outside controlled airspace in IMC since the 2nd World War. In fact, statistically, from a mid-air point of view, it's FAR safer to be IMC outside controlled airspace than VMC.

Of course, it's common sense to obtain a RADAR service of some kind when IMC, but not necessary to file a flight plan or follow a designated route.

The big problem with IMC, is flight into the terrain, not bumping into each other. This is where training and following simple procedures, such as being 1,000' above any obstruction within 5NM comes in. Fairly easy in the UK, more difficult in places like New Zealand...

TOO

Piperboy. You fly for fun?
How dare you enjoy it?
:=

A perfectly legal flight in the UK so relax, oh and 27/09 doing what he did he didn't even have to talk to anyone the clue is in the wording, outside controlled airspace.

No. I don't think he was saying that at all.

I believe you were quite correct

It is certainly legal in the UK. How smart you think it is, depends on how risk averse you are.

I agree with DeltaV, TOO, and ATC.


MJ:ok:

Delta V. I'm most certainly not a lawyer. In this part of the world it is most certainly not looked upon as "harmless fun"

The rules here for VFR flight are below 1000'AGL or 3000 AMSL" which ever is the higher of the two you must be clear of cloud and in sight of land or water, above these altitudes you must the 1000' vertically and 1nm horizontally clear of cloud, other wise you need to be flying IFR on an IFR plan.

Obviously the UK has a far more relaxed interpretation of VFR flight.

If it's legal in the UK and while it's no doubt fun, I'm not convinced it's smart.

Oh well that's life over here it's normal, which country are you referring to ?

Above the Clouds, over here is New Zealand.

No. Our VFR rules are much the same as yours. The difference is that, outside CAS, we can go VFR-IFR-VFR without any formality.


MJ:ok:

27/09
Assuming you are qualified, what would you do if flying from A to B VFR but encountered wx that would require a period of flying in cloud then return to VFR flight to destination. Not criticising just asking how it works in NZ.

Thanks Mach Jump for the clarification.

I presume you mean VMC-IMC-VMC without formality.

I do still find it unusual to allow IMC flight like this, even or more especially outside controlled airspace. Even though I would consider it highly irregular it makes more sense to allow it in controlled airspace where someone is keeping and eye on things.

Do you, when flying IMC adhere to the IFR cruising levels etc?

I just hope none of you poms try this if you ever come over our way. There's already been far too much bent metal on our hillsides where some locals (usually inadvertently) have practiced the art of IMC VFR flight(I know that is a bit of an oxymoron, but it best describes the scenario).

...if you have a valid IR(R). Statistics shows that IFR flying OCAS in UK actually pose less risk of a mid air collision compared to VFR flying. This might sound strange if you fly in a country where this type of flying is not possible.

No problem, I'm happy to answer.

I am IFR qualified. If I was on a VFR flight and encountered such weather there would be two options.

One; remain VFR and divert around the weather to the destination, return to my departure point or land at a suitable nearby airfield.

Two; if I was able to join an IFR route at or above MSA I would pick up an IFR clearance.

The other option you seem to allude to, that is just go IMC to get to VMC conditions runs shivers of fear up my spine. Too many people have got killed doing that.

Yes. In this case it means the same thing, as flight in IMC requires flight under IFR.

So, you can be flying under VFR in VMC, then IFR in IMC for a period, then return to VFR in VMC.


MJ:ok:

Ok it seems to be joining an IFR route that is the difference, what would be wrong with climbing to MSA or MORA flying the correct semi circular altitude or FL, if there is no ATC then board cast your intentions if required and continuing ? in many parts of the world there are places with no published IFR routes but you can still operate IFR outside controlled airspace especially in remote areas.

Yes, they have. I also understand what Piper was doing. Personally, I don't do that, much rather dart in between them, and cloud skim, rather than go in them. I don't really like flying in cloud.

I think the danger, if you perceive any danger, is the situational awareness, of going from VFR-IFR-VFR, for no other reason than doing it. I get the descending/ascending through cloud following a plan, but to just enter cloud, no, not for me. The scan has to quickly adjust, then re adjust, unless of course you press AP:\

One doesn't (at least I don't) "just go IMC".


One flies in accordance with IFR, which includes MSA as well as cruising level (and the appropriate altimetry). (But in the UK outside controlled airspace it doesn't involve much else - no flight plan, no need to talk to anybody - the clue is in "outside controlled airspace".)


If I haven't prepared for an IFR flight, eg I don't know where MSA is, then I don't go into IMC. Messing around in clouds is something I do only when I've planned the flight as IFR (even if I'm expecting to fly all of it VFR). (Knowing "I'm safe above x,000' within y nm of my home field" would count as "planning" a local bimble for IFR.)

You still need to be on an IFR plan, whether or not you're in controlled airspace. You need to contact ATC to file that plan.

Also you need to be able to climb to MSA and have your clearance in VMC prior to going IMC.

Broadcasting blind is futile as for many parts of the country there is no designated frequency outside of controlled airspace.

There is a lot of IFR flight outside of controlled airspace over here. When we operate outside of controlled airspace on an IFR plan ATC will advise all known IFR traffic. The last thing you need is some clown bimbling around IMC and not on a plan as you're going past some small airfield in descent to your destination.

In the U.S. as well, in uncontrolled airspace, you can fly IFR/IMC without a clearance. Thing is, except for some remote, usually mountainous areas of the Western U.S. and Alaska, there's very little useable uncontrolled airspace left. As a controller, I was *not authorized* to issue a clearance outside controlled airspace. Pilot is on his own.

Are you talking about in NZ or generally, because if you're talking generally then that's simply not true.

Clearance into what? You can't be cleared into uncontrolled airspace.

So you are calling everyone who flies in IMC OCAS in the UK clowns?

Steve

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious to anyone following the conversation that I was talking about New Zealand.

I was talking about an IFR clearance.

As for the clown comment once again if you'd been reading the thread you'd know it is illegal to fly in IMC in NZ unless you're on an IFR plan. Anyone doing so who isn't on an IFR plan is an idiot. The term clown was being very complimentary. What you want to call them in the UK is up to you.

I know it's legal to fly IMC without a plan in the UK, however I don't consider it very smart, so yes, I'd probably still call them a clown or something similar.

I understood that all airspace in the USA above 1250ft was class E therefore controlled for IFR. Have I misinterpreted that?
There are airlines in the UK regularly flying in class G airspace IMC without radar cover (only procedural service). I don't see what protection a fight plan can offer in these circumstances.

D.O.

As long as I can see the fog, I am VMC. :ok:

In the lower 48 states, Class E exists above 1200 or 700 AGL for 99% of the country, but there are still some areas where class G extends up to 10,000' and higher. South and Southeast of Reno/Tahoe are examples. Others further north as well.

IFR OCAS, maintaining your own terrain clearance is perfectly normal in the UK. In fact, the statistics in the UK are unequivocal about how much safer you are IFR OCAS than VFR.

I think that it is unreasonable to call someone a 'clown' for holding a different POV to you, when they are doing something that in the UK is legal and normal.