Landing at closed aerodromes
Hi all,
I tried to search for this, but couldn't find any info in the forums. Tomorrow, I'm meant to be doing my first land away at Peterborough Conington (EGSF), but I checked the NOTAMs and it seems to be shut. I'm just wondering, what's the status of landing at closed ATZs? The other option is Sywell (EGBK) which seems open, but no AFIS. I'll check with the CFI (who's instructing me tomorrow) but was just wondering what the actual procedure is. Can you not land? Or is it safety calls on Safetycom, or what? Thanks, Neil |
Many airfields will not allow out of hours, some will. You need permission to land - that does not mean on the radio but from the "landowner" this can be a case of phoning up the day before or you may need to sign some sort of indemnity. If they have a frequency then the normal thing is to make blind calls on the normal frequency.
Having said that I will be surprised as a student if your instructors agrees to you doing a land away into a field with no services! |
If an airfield is officially closed, its existance ceased - there is no longer any landing site. You could do a safety landing though, and if you find out after a thorough inspection everything is alright and the engine had some kind of morning sickness sticky valve, you just take off again. No permission needed, neither landing nor take off. By good airmenship safety landings cost no landing fee either. Be prepared to discuss in case of an investigation, but all due to flight safety.
But, if you know in advance by NOTAM or other, simply don't go there. |
Landing at closed aerodromes
Pretty sure Sywell is closed until the New Year so only available to out of hours permit holders.
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If an airfield is officially closed, its existance ceased - there is no longer any landing site. |
Landing at closed aerodromes Pretty sure Sywell is closed until the New Year so only available to out of hours permit holders. |
Foxmoth
Having said that I will be surprised as a student if your instructors agrees to you doing a land away into a field with no services! |
Fire and rescue.
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A relative of mine is doing his PPL and if his solo cross country involved landing at a "closed" airfield I would be horrified.
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Hell you'd have bugger all airfields to land at over here if you needed fire and rescue on site. Why the need for these services? Are they required at all airfields in the UK?
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I didn't get the impression that this is to be a solo land away! The OP wrote that the CFI was to be instructing. If if it were, someone would need to be there to sign a logbook, wouldn't they?
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My understanding that as a PPL in training, there was a requirement for the airfield to have a fire service. At Fairoaks, we had to get back before 6pm when the tower and fire service finished. It was still possible to land as a private flight (as in it became an unlicensed aerodrome out of hours) but not when under training for a PPL.
This may be an insurance requirement or part of the flying order book rather than a stated rule. I didn't get a signature for my first land away, only for the QXC. Connington's a nice landaway, massive tarmac runway. Sibson, on the other hand, is a relatively short pair of grass strips with their own hazards including actually identifying the runways to start with, and avoiding the electricity pylons. I wouldn't recommend it as a landaway to a PPL in training without having taken them there first. I've landed there three times, it doesn't spring out at you. |
Originally Posted by Howard Long
(Post 8804050)
My understanding that as a PPL in training, there was a requirement for the airfield to have a fire service.
The need to use a licensed airfield went away in early 2010. |
27/09, I don't think you or I will ever understand the truly bizarre world of British aviation.
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OT & 27/09
What makes you think you are the only bemused ones? ... The almighty CAA works(?) in wonderous ways :ugh: |
"Closed" and "unlicensed" are not the same thing.
If an airfield has been declared "closed" by the operator or owner, then using it is trespass. If you have an emergency - who cares, land then apologise afterwards. It would be poor manners and poor practice to land under other circumstances however. On the other hand, if it's "unlicensed", but not actually closed, then that's different. Only public transport requires a licence in place, instruction doesn't. The licence basically validates various safety procedures - minimum ATC, runway standards, fire and rescue; but those can all be in place without the licence. We used to have a really daft rule that required light aircraft instruction to use licenced aerodromes, although microlight instruction didn't. After years of absolutely no difference in training fatalities between the two, the rule was finally removed for light aircraft training, and within a year a large number of training airfields had got rid of their licences and saved a lot of money and effort None of which changes the universal and absolute requirement that the captain has to ensure the safety of the aircraft and the suitability of the airfield being used. G |
It's all well and good moaning about the CAA, except it is misguided in this case as it has not been necessary to use a licensed airfield for PPL training since 2010!
If an airfield is closed, it's closed. Simple as that - it has nothing to do with the licensing state. It's private property and they've decided you don't want you there - so tough! Unlicensed / Licensed only affects public transport flights and is irrelevant in this context. -edit- crossed with GtE |
Our local airfield is closed over Christmas, as usual, and flying goes on, as usual. Its not licenced while closed, but that isn't going to make much difference to any one who is prepared. (Hope no one dropped in needing fuel without PPR)
But also as usual there is a lot of rumour and speculation. I don't understand what the OP was asking. Was he checking up that the CFI knew what he/she was doing? I understood it to be Neil's first ever land away. If that's right he should trust his CFI to know all the ins and outs. The CFI is much more likely to be reliable than some half informed replies on the internet. |
An aerodrome, airport etc. is a place from which an aircraft normally takes off and lands. If the owner of the aerodrome/airport closes it, for that time period, it is no longer a place where an aircraft takes off and lands - by the owner's direction. So don't land and take off there. If a store is closed, you don't break in and take what you want anyway do you?
If you have an emergency situation, a "closed" aerodrome could be a forced landing site, and if you do a good job, the aircraft could be flown out again. If a maintenance reason has caused you to decide to land, in flight you have declared the aircraft no longer airworthy. So, once on the ground, how would you declare the aircraft airworthy again to take off? You're not going to take off an unairworthy aircraft from a closed aerodrome are you? There are airports I know of in the US, which were well declared closed. Pilots landed anyway. They found zero sympathy, and were told that the airplane would have to be disassembled, and trucked out = expensive. And read your insurance, it probably has exclusions about operations from non or closed aerodromes. This is the information age - you can't say you didn't know that you should not operate from any given place! |
Doesn't the CLOSED bit just refer to whether the main gate is open or locked shut, and that the office building is closed?
The runway should remain serviceable, unless they have let the flock of sheep back on. |
Subject to insurance you do not need a licensed aerodrome for training anymore as has already been stated.
However re fire cover organisations and instructors have a duty of care. If, God forbid, there was serious injury or fatality and it was proved that no fire cover was the reason you might be subject to litigation. |
So, summary of what ended up happening.
Seems that Connington was indeed closed, and that means you can't land there (except in emergency etc). Sywell (actually, Northampton Sywell, nice long asphalt runway) was open, but operating as unlicensed. This would have been fine to land at, but the CFI said there would be much less training benefit from it, so cancelled today's lesson. Apparently, blind calls on the published frequency, treating it as an uncontrolled field is the way to go. |
Difficult to see what the difference in training benefit would be!
If anything, it would be useful learning how to self-announce and deal with having no air-ground radio service. |
Difficult to see what the difference in training benefit would be! I went to a number of farm strips during my PPL training, and they most certainly didn't have a fire service! |
On your first point, I could not disagree more. Are you seriously saying that a student should not visit any unlicensed airfields during training? That is just ridiculous. It would benefit all students to visit a variety of airfields during their training. We're not talking about a solo land away here.
Your second point is difficult to accept. I'd be really interested to see you come up with a citation for that. |
Depends which country he did his license in Whopity.
I certainly landed at many fields with no on site fire cover during PPL some solo. In fact at night I landed at a field when I was the only person on site. There will be thousands of US trained pilots who have done exactly the same. |
There are some countries where you are only permitted to land or take of from an "approved" airfield, and with the owner's or operator's permission (or combinations of the above). I understand that France is one, and therefore that there are very few "farm strips" in France.
In the UK, I can use my back garden as a runway and land and take off from there, as long as it's safe (captain's responsibility to confirm that). I'm sure the expert CFIs will know precise details, but my understanding is that for a student pilot, it's up to the instructor to decide if it's safe or not. Permission from the landowner or his "agent" is still needed, or it's "trespass". |
It was in the UK, we had permission, and my instructor was very familiar with the sites.
I thought they were valuable trips from a learning point of view and I enjoyed them. It's very difficult to see how anyone could object to this... |
Doesn't the CLOSED bit just refer to whether the main gate is open or locked shut As so often, Step Turn has neatly summed it all up. |
Doesn't the CLOSED bit just refer to whether the main gate is open or locked shut, and that the office building is closed? The runway should remain serviceable The aerodrome operator is morally if not also legally responsible for preventing the use of the runway if it is not "serviceable". Any number of reasons could be the cause, but closing property you own, is the privilege of ownership, and must be respected by everyone else. As the pilot, you are at least honour bound to assume that the entire aerodrome is closed, when "closed" is associated with it, unless the closure is more specific to be only the club house, parking lot or the loo. I own my runway, and I sometimes close it (with "X's") when it is too soft. Also typical in Canada is the statement: "Limited winter maintenance". This should be interpreted as "the owner does not mind of you land, but assure that the runway conditions meet your expectation, 'cause there is no assurance. So, if you don't know, treat it as closed. It's great for students, or any pilot for that matter, to fly from grass, and the more opportunities the better. But, that does not translate to "I'm gonna land, 'cause I see a runway in front of me". Assure you have whatever permission may be appropriate for the aerodrome. |
In the Uk closed means whatever the airfield owner wants it to mean - it can mean totaly closed, it can mean that if you are a mate of the owner you can get permission or maybe if your dad has just died he might do the same, it may even mean closed to anyone axcept based aircraft - the thing is that you need the land owners permision, if you can get that then it does not matter what the NOTAMS say, chances are that unless there are exceptional circumstances closed means closed - but that does not make it as hard and fast as some have stated
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If and when you decide to fly in other countries just be aware that "closed" may mean something else altogether.
:= I have seen strips close because they are under water, had ditches dug across them, had electric fences across so the sheep or cattle can graze, have motor racing events on them , etc etc etc!:oh::ugh: I would be really careful landing on a "closed" strip without contacting the operator/owner.:E |
Now I'm starting to become confused.
It seems that the meaning of Closed" wrt airfields in the UK might be also a bit like calling "Ready" at the holding point. On more than one occasion I've heard foreign crews mainly with English accents calling "Fully Ready". WTF? Either you're ready or you're not. To me an airfield's either closed or it's not. How can it be closed when some people are still using it? Should there be a "Fully Closed" option as well? :E I like the way we do it over here. There's public and private. Prior permission is required to land at a private airfield whereas it's not required at a public field. Both types can be licensed or unlicensed, or for that matter controlled or uncontrolled, There's licensed or unlicensed. Licensed means the T/O and landing distances and the approach/departure fans etc have been surveyed by appropriately qualified people. Licensed fields are in the AIP whereas unlicensed are generally not in the AIP. ATO ops generally require a licensed field, the main exception being part 135 ops. Licensed does not infer provision of ATC or RFS. There's controlled and uncontrolled. When a tower goes off watch the airport stays open but becomes uncontrolled. ATO's can be carried out with or without ATC though once traffic levels and or seat capacity thresholds are exceeded ATC must be in attendance. RFS services are only required for RPT services and in some instances are only available for arrivals and departures. When an airport is closed, it is closed, no ifs, buts, or maybes. The closure may be permanent, or may be temporary, due to surface conditions, (flooding etc), or seasonal e.g. haymaking, lambing season etc. |
Rule 40 of the Rules of the Air:
40 An aircraft shall not taxi on the apron or the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome without the permission of either: (a) the person in charge of the aerodrome; or (b) the air traffic control unit or aerodrome flight information service unit notified as being on watch at the aerodrome. The manoeuvring area includes the runway. If an airfield is closed (or open for that matter) it is an offence to land or take off without the permission of the person in charge (or if open, the person in charge or atc/fiso). I have defended a couple of pilots recently who were charged with this offence. Fortunately they were found not guilty after trials but not before they had been put to not insignificant time and expense. |
That's why I always phone first and never assume I can land somewhere. Much easier to get permission than go to court.
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The ANO specifies Aerodrome requirements for Training
Aerodromes – use for purposes of flying instruction and testing 208A (1) The operator of an aerodrome which is not a licensed aerodrome must not permit an aircraft flying or intended to fly for a purpose specified in paragraph (3) to take off from or land at the aerodrome unless satisfied on reasonable grounds that the aerodrome has adequate facilities for the safe conduct of such flights. (2) The commander of an aircraft must not take off from or land at an aerodrome which is not a licensed aerodrome on a flight for a purpose specifi ed in paragraph (3) unless satisfied on reasonable grounds that the aerodrome has adequate facilities for the safe conduct of such flights. (3) A flight is for a purpose specified in this paragraph if it is for the purpose of— (a) instruction in flying given to any person for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion of an aircraft rating, a night rating or a night qualifi cation in a licence CAP 793 provides guidance on safe practices at unlicenced aerodromes and form an acceptable standard to which authorising instructors should adhere. Prior to the relaxation of the rules, the ANO specifically stated that flights for the purpose of training for a licence or rating were confined to Licensed Aerodromes. Whilst flights into farm strips had "training value" they could not be logged as part of the experience required for the issue of a licence. The licence application form carries the following Notice: FALSE REPRESENTATION STATEMENT It is an offence under Article 231 of the Air Navigation Order 2009 to make, with intent to deceive, any false representation for the purpose of procuring the grant, issue, renewal or variation of any certificate, licence, approval, permission or other document. This offence is punishable on summary conviction by a fine up to £5000, and on conviction on indictment with an unlimited fine or up to two years imprisonment or both. |
Perhaps some background may be useful. I fly out of EGSC, which has full ATC. I suspect that the reason to go to Sywell and Connington was that they also feature in the QXC routings, and I don't have much (read: any) experience of AFIS or A/G fields yet.
The club also does farm strip courses, so I don't think there's a reluctance to land at uncontrolled airfields :) Just got to finish my revision for my Nav, Met and Comms exams now, then solo nav... |
At controlled airports it is possible for the ATC to be closed (for the night, usually) and the airport open, as uncontrolled. If so, the pilot's investigation of landing permission will make this evident. However, an ATC airport can also be closed, and there are a few in the Toronto area like that. They close every night for neighbourhood noise - only air ambulance operations.
You simply must inquire, and comply.... |
We used to have a really daft rule that required light aircraft instruction to use licenced aerodromes, although microlight instruction didn't. After years of absolutely no difference in training fatalities between the two, the rule was finally removed for light aircraft training, and within a year a large number of training airfields had got rid of their licences and saved a lot of money and effort Training organisations have also begun to decamp from licensed airfields (which need to remain licensed for public transport flights) in order to save money by moving to unlicensed fields. This can threaten the viability of existing licensed fields and we are already losing enough airfields without making matters worse. |
I'm not sure I see it quite the same way Mike.
All airfields are businesses, and to stay successful need to provide a service which the customers want at a price that's acceptable. All flying schools need to be at an airfield. If a flying school decides that airfield B meets its needs better than airfield A, then it's absolutely right that it moves. Airfield A then can either improve service and value for money, or decide it doesn't want that customer. It's simple as that, and it's like this that services and prices improve in a free market. G |
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