Pencil dropped in PA38 tank
 

Just had a call from someone with a PA38 who has managed to drop their pencil into a fuel tank!

Anyone know any clever ways of getting it out?

Thanks for any help.

Drop an eraser in too, should neutralise it.

Sh$t! Those tanks are supposed to be lead free. :p

Coat hanger?

Hardware shops or auto shops carry long, flexible "lost item pickers" that you hold at one end and press to open claws at the other. That, a mirror and a flashlight to locate the pencil might do the trick.

Find a kid with hands that will fit through the filler.

Flashlight in a fuel tank? Yeah right :D

Slow roll with fuel cap off.

SGC

Fill it with fuel slowly and it will float.

Then once above tabs gently pull the fuel in one direction and the surface current will pull it towards the hole where the movement is.

LED flashlight will work. No heat and no spark.

Like MJ said, If you can't reach it, the Grabber as described by Semmern (less than £10) a long thin lat of wood can be used as a paddle to stir the fuel in a circular swirl- all the muck and hopefully the pencil, will collect in the centre of the swirl, If you have a chip-pan at home , you can practice the technique.
That's how we cleaned the Chippy pans (about 4 gallons of oil) swirl, using a square,long-dandled sieve, wait till it slowed and a pool of grotty burnt stuff could be seen and a deft sweep with the seive would collect virtually all the debris.
swirl first, see if the pencil is floating....then a grabber......tempting to use a kid with small hands, but not with avgas or petrol on young, sensitive skin, please!

Thanks for all the suggestions - will be down the field tomorrow to have a go at extricating said item and post the results!

Out of interest, how does someone drop a pencil into a fuel tank?

If you thrash the fuel in there is a chance it will get caught on the roof if you dribble it in towards the front edge it should sweep the floating item to the uphill end of the tank.

BTW I have used this technique with other fuel tanks and pencils/fag ends before.

Depending on whether the errant pencil is floating or not, you might find it useful to raise one wing or the other to get it towards the filler neck. Preferably lift the wing at the jacking point or if that isn't possible, on the mainspar line of rivets.

If you need to change the longitudinal access of the aircraft, PA38s are quite easy to lower the tail/raise the nose. Gently pull down on the leading edge of the fin - but not the plastic fairing.

And anything you use to look inside the tank with - tie string round it so if it does get dropped you don't end up with more than the pencil inside....

I've dropped a fuel strainer in the cowling oil filler hole before on a PA28, found it lower cowling air outlet.

Quickly learnt that fuel strainers are not best put balancing on the cowling oil filler cap while checking oil :ok:

Mad_jock, Fag ends? Flaming either way.

fag ends may very well mean: CIGARETTE BUTTS

after all the main contributors are not of north america.

there is an old WW1 song, which includes the lyrics;

while you've a lucifer to light your fag, smile ...etc

a lucifer is a match

a fag is a cigarette.

and gay use to mean carefree and happy.

Probably needless to say, but I'll say it anyway. Ground the aircraft, ground all the tools you are using to the highest extent possible (go to an IT shop - they have special anti-static mats, clips and wristband that are all connected, and are used when working with sensitive electronic components), keep fire extinguishers to hand, don't wear flammable clothing or clothing that may generate static electricity. And if you are going to be hanging over an open fuel filler neck for a while, consider using appropriate breathing protection.

@FakePilot
He's not called Mad Jock for nothing ! ;)

If you can't find a torch to look for the pencil you could use a lighter or a match. :ok:

I'd advise against using a match. You'll probably be looking in the tank for a while so you may burn your fingers as the match goes out. :E

Fakepilot if you want I can send you 100 authentic Scottish fag lighters if you like call it 10$ each.

Lost the flexible end of a jerry can filler pipe in a Jodel fuel tank. Got it out using one of the flexible claw tools with a small web cam taped to it. Drained the tank first.

I have just purchased a Borascope from Aldi for £60 and has a colour screen , one meter long flexi approx 10 mm wide with built in internal Led lights at camera end , comes with a few hook attachments but you could adapt your own or use in conjunction with a three claw grabber .

Just had a though " how about using suction if you can locate it in the tank"
Use a fuel pump to suck it out ?


Good luck Austerwobbler

Is this a crisis ? Most club Cessna 152's have at least one fuel measuring tool in the tank and they don't seem to fall out of the sky !

I helped a friend remove the tank from his Jodel yesterday. He appeared quite surprised when I shook it and it rattled.:E Most older aircraft have "stuff" in the tank. My old AA5 had quite a bit in one side and nothing in the other. A check in the paperwork showed it had had a seep and been removed not long before I got it.

Rod1

first question is does it need to be removed?

If the outlet pipe stands up say 1 cm and has a mesh covering, I would suggest it is safe to leave it.
Otherwise I would say it should be removed as a low tank could pull the pencil in.

In theory it should float, but once fully saturated, it may lose most of its floatation ability.

Seems to me one could be lucky with the floatation method mentioned above. I would be cautious of expecting success.
Otherwise drain the tank, vent it as best one can and use a borascope/ mirror and claw.
A further alternative is to slide the tank out of the wing. This is not such a big job as one may think.

I would avoid switching the lights on or off while in the presence of fuel or fuel vapours (the switch spark is the danger).

Good luck

Flyme

There is a lot of practical truth in this. This type of "in the tank" thinking stretches our tolerance of the relationship between "safe" and "airworthy".

Would I fly a plane home with a pencil in the fuel tank? Yup, without a worry in the world. Would I try to get it passed during a scheduled inspection that way? Nope, it just would not pass!

Yes, I too, have found some rather surprising things in fuel tanks, and between them and structure. The plane had flown safely up to that point, but not "airworthy".

The Aerial Arts Chaser POH included this: "WARNING - Smoking can be bad for your health - Do not smoke while refuelling."

Extract from AAIB Special bulletin 01/2008 G-YMMM incident:-

In the area of the left main tank water scavenge pump inlet:A piece of black plastic tape (3M 226HD) approximately 52 mm x 50 mm (2 inch tape). The tape had a number of circular marks similar in size and layout to the holes on the water scavenge pump inlet. It was likely that the tape was left in the tank during the construction of the aircraft.
A piece of brown paper the same shape and size as the black plastic tape. The paper had two circular marks similar to those on the plastic tape and is believed to be the adhesive backing for this piece of tape.A piece of yellow plastic approximately 10 mm x 12 mm. The plastic was similar in appearance to electrical cable identity tape.


A small piece of fabric/paper was found in the inlet gate/guillotine valve of the right centre OJ pump.

flyme

Does a pencil float on avgas? Anyone tried it?

Good question.

According to How pencil is made - material, manufacture, making, history, used, processing, steps, product, machine, Raw Materials, The Manufacturing Process of pencil, Colored pencils, Quaility Control, pencils are typically made from Cedar wood. Dry Cedar has a SG of .38 (Specific Gravity Of Wood Table).

The SG of the graphite core is less readily available, but is apparently between 1.9 and 2.3. (Graphite: The mineral Graphite information and pictures)

The thickness of a pencil is 6mm (radius 3mm) so by a first approximation the cut-through area is 3^2*pi = 28.3 mm2. The lead core has a diameter of 2mm (radius 1mm) so that area is 3.14 mm2.

This means the worst-case SG of the pencil is approximately ( (.38 * (28.3-3.14)) + (2.3 * 3.14) ) / 28.3 = .59. The SG of avgas is .72 so the pencil should float. But this does not take into account the weight of the varnish and a possible eraser. Or what happens when the wood soaks up the avgas, or the effects of a potential chemical reaction between the graphite core and the avgas. Or the fact that if you sharpen the pencil, you remove relatively more wood than graphite core so the SG goes up.

So I would not automatically assume a pencil floats in avgas.

you could drop one in a pa38 fuel tank and see.

Believe it or not, there is a Pencil Museum in the UK, somewhere around the Lake District as I recall.

If you do manage to fish the pencil out, I suspect it could become the museum's star attraction :ok:

I have been to said Museum its not bad actually.

"Does a pencil float on avgas? "

I think we know a man who will have an answer to that:}

Rod1

Will a pencil break down over time ? Bung up any gauze fuel pipe filters or even block a jet , I'd fly it home but I'd want it out ASAP , heaven forbid anything happend to the aircraft and the AAIB found it in the tank , the insurance company would love that " any excuse not to pay"
Austerwobbler

Trouble us that the paint will flake off.

The engineers extricated said pencil today - not sure how but will ask them - they didn't take long!

Thanks for all the help and suggestion.

Hurrah! :D

(But do tell, did it float?)

So you got your fuel draw back :ok:









I'll get my coat.....