The last Super Cub I flew had a standard Lycoming with ordinary mags. The only 'shower of sparks' (for start only of course) aeroplane I've flown was the Yak52. Some people hand-swing those, I'm told. I'm not one of them! It's bad enough 'walking' the prop through before start (it's too big to pull through, so so you push it a blade at a lime with your shoulder).

C172s are not the nicest aeroplanes to hand swing, but it's quite OK and at least with the prop turning the 'wrong' way you can do it from behind the prop (I find that easier) if you are right handed. Just like hand-propping a J3, but with the higher compression and shorter stroke of 'modern' flat fours it doesn't 'plop' over like a 65hp Conti.

I think that the point was a more general one than specifically about what to do with a flat battery in a C172.

I'm pretty certain that the conversation has gone rather beyond the C150 checklist, but that doesn't stop it being an interesting conversation.

G

G t E, you still haven't said why you wouldn't just hand swing it.

I didn't answer the question, because it didn't seem relevant, as the real point was about the usefulness, or not, of carrying a POH on board an aeroplane.


I hand swung an aeroplane with a flat battery on Friday. It wasn't a C172, I did have somebody I trusted and had briefed strapped into it.

I try to avoid C172s for several reasons, the main one being that I'm a shortarse and can't see over the instrument panel on most variants. I might avoid hand-swinging one mostly to give me an excuse to fly something nicer, or because I don't have gloves to hand, or because I haven't established that there isn't something more serious wrong with it than a flat battery. Mostly to have an excuse not to fly one.

G

"...especially with the super cub, which has shower of sparks mags"

Garbage. I've flown lots of PA-18s. None (as in zip,zero, nada, not one etc etc) was fitted with a 'shower of sparks' mag.

Thud; +1

It looks to be bollox.

Has any Lyc been so fitted? I never heard of it.

Dear Christ, what has all of this got to do with the price of a lb of cheese.

SSD, a Cessna 172, hand swung from the rear, is, well nigh on impossible.

There was a fatality, a number of years back, with an acquaintance of ours, who decided to hand swing a 52. Not pretty.

I could never understand it. Like you, it was a big enough challenge to just turn the prop. We had a 50, although I have a number of hours on the 52. Both the types were not in the, lets hand swing it, variety.

Someone a bit back discussed thread drift, I am sure the OP, now has a number of hours under his belt, with the C152 checklist he got from here..

That said........

Well by now the OP is probably long gone but as others have noted the thread is still interesting. Anyway I have hand propped C 172's many times, including one on floats.

Like SSD I prop them from the back. You can use your left hand to hold on to the cowl mounted refueling handle and the right arm to swing. The trick is to load the cylinders with the primer and then they will often go on the first flick. You don't have to be superman either as I once taught a 95 lb women how to do it.

With the small Chinese radials you don't even need to hand prop them as you pull through while priming to get a good mixture in the cylinders and then position the prop at the right spot a cylinder will fire as soon as you activate the shower of sparks. Doesn't work on the MP14, unfortunately, unless it has the Chinese mags.

Crikey, I wish I'd known that before I did it; countless times.

How about when you get to your shortish strip and want to return but it is now pretty hot or you have an extra passenger and want to check the takeoff performance numbers.......

I do agree that looking something up in the POH while in flight, in the context of a single pilot flight in a GA aircraft, is unlikely but most aircraft have convenient stowage in the glove box or side panel/seat back pockets so why not have it available ?

The broader point is something I still feel worth mentioning. The POH seems to get scant attention in flight training yet the ones that come with aircraft built since the 1970's contain a wealth of useful data and need to be read and understood. That is hard to do when they are in the broom closet still is the original, now very yellow plastic wrapping........

POH are also serial number specific and the supplements are just as important as the main chapters. If the aircraft has any STC's than those will come with a flight manual supplement that should be in the back of the POH

Unfortunately older or more unusual aircraft usually have poor or non existent POH's. My Nanchang came with a very poorly translated 8 1/2 by 11 inch bulky hard bound "Flying Directions". It has high entertainment value (eg taxing is to be no faster than the PLAF double quick march pace :hmm:) but not a lot useful information. However I found a wealth of useful information through the warbird clubs, online, and from some pretty well translated maintenance manuals. Not having a spiffy nice POH is not an excuse to just ignore POH type information, rather it puts the onus on you to figure out what you need to know and go find it.

Or when it's in the aeroplane, so you can't have access to it for study before flying because somebody is flying said aeroplane (the standard US model).

The better UK flying schools get it right in my opinion - a shelf in the ops room with all of the official POHs on the shelf and accessible to everybody to study there, with photocopies of the most critical pages kept on the aeroplane in case somebody needs them when away from home base.

The syndicates I've been involved with in recent years have made sure that everybody has their own personal copy, but the original is kept locked somewhere safe as a "master" - many ways to do it.



But as for mandating it in the aeroplane in case it might be useful when away from home base - where do you stop? Tool set? Lifejackets? Spare spark plugs? All things I'll sometimes carry depending upon the trip - but I don't think any of them should be mandated.

Although, just maybe, the checklist should be on board?


G

Hand swinging props.

I'm actually relaxed swinging a proper rotation prop, and in something like a Cub from behind the prop, i.e. right-handed. I also have to have a good deal of confidence in the individual in the cockpit, and they have to understand that until I've walked away, I call the shots.

I am not comfortable swinging props on my own.

I will always use chocks, after a Chippy almost got me, and a couple of people who were standing close.:O

Most things will require chocks, although the Chipmunk brakes are quite good

The Cessna and Pipers with a pre-engaged starter, I will not touch, so that rules out the C172, for me. I also think it is nigh on impossible, safely.

The Yaks, a lot of folks still do, and on the 52, I think it stands too high, but admit if fully primed, it will fire reasonably easily.

Now where was that POH....

Why?

The starter will only 'pre-engage' with the starter ring if someone operates the starter motor (on a 172, turns the key beyond the 'both' position). Just the same as with a non-pre-engaged starter motor, in fact.

Propping from behind is actually safer, since if the aeroplane moves, it moves away from you. That's the method I use on spam cans and Cubs. On the Chippy, a firm push on the wing's leading edge will confirm the brakes are properly 'on' and the aeroplane will not move.

Of course if you don't have faith in the person in the cockpit when swinging, walk away and leave it.

Thud and others. My Super Cub, which I have owned since 1989, and which I maintain, has shower of sparks mags. I haven't met another which has, but that does not change the fact that I HAVE SHOWER OF SPARKS MAGS. Don't be so quick to be rude please.

Interesting. I've only ever seen 'shower of sparks'-type mags fitted to radials.
May I enquire as to the type of engine and type of mags fitted to your Super Cub?

Certainly. 0-320-A2C and they are well, Shower of Sparks! Or so they say on the data plates. I'm away from home so can't look up the details for you. With a starting buzzer aft of the firewall, and an isolator switch for the starter motor so that it is possible to hand swing if needed.
Interestingly enough, when the buzzer went TU, the engine would still start if cranked fast enough, but it needed everything exactly right, including probably the phase of the moon.
The aircraft is something of a bitser, converted from a 135 cub, and the wings are off two different aircraft. It was originally a cropsprayer, and we bought it from a Belgian gliding club.

If you've tried to battery start a Lycoming, and run the battery down with no success, a hand swing of the prop will no longer work to start it, you're going to have to use ground power - so, having the POH, to assure the proper connection and operation is a good idea!

But on the other hand, where do you start? Checklists are required by regulation, a POH by regulation, or often the type certificate data sheet. It is not optional for the pilot to carry something required (which could include lifejackets - I wear mine). If the regulations were to be relaxed, so that the booklet which seems to have been lost, and does not fit well in the cockpit is not required in a small plane, at what point does it begin to be required?

We'd agree that a large plane should have one, so the crew can refer to manage the systems well, where would the don't need it/do need it line be?

I remember ferrying a Lake Amphibian for a friend. I had enough time flying Lakes, but this particular one was new to me. It was to be a longer flight, so I filled up the main tank, and the two wing tanks. There I am, a few hours into a very nice flight, and decide that it would be wise to use some of the wing fuel, so my main tank was still useful for approach and landing later. I could not figure out what I had to do to access the fuel I knew that I had put in those tanks - I could not find any valve or pump to operate, I read ever placard I could find - nothing. So, I found the POH, and read it, everything relevant to the fuel system - nothing. But I wasn't expecting to find a reference anyway, I knew that these tanks were an STC.

So, I used the "phone a friend" option. I did not want to phone the owner, as I would look pretty silly, so I phoned another friend. I had to wait until I had crossed a large lake to get cell coverage again, and now I was in the US, so I was paying roaming charges. After all of that, it turns out that the wing tanks just drain into the main tank, when it gets down a bit, no pilot action required - and nothing written anywhere to explain it!

Having the POH and checklist may only be a part of what you need, there might be important supplements too...

This would only be true if you had the Shower of Sparks Mag which are pretty rare, or the STC`d LASAR mag conversions. Virtually all of the small Lycomings are fitted with an impulse mag. These do not require any external power source.

That being said it is not a good idea to use external power if the battery is totally dead. After the engine starts the charging system will provide a very high charging current. This hard on the charging system, can damage radio`s but most importantly is absolutely death in the aircrafts` battery, which incidental will cost a minimum of 250 dollars to replace. With a dead battery the best solution is charge with a good battery charger before trying a start.

True if the battery is totally dead as there will be no exitation current for the alternator to commence charging. But the common scenario is battery too low to turn prop over compression, but not dead.

Then a hand swing will get you on your way.

And of course 'normal' mags don't need external power - that's why we still use them in 2014!

Yes, well you didn't believe me about my mags, so I expect you will call me a liar if I tell you that my Cub has a generator. But it does. And will hand swing as long as there is some juice left in the battery. Just a bit. Then it charges.

PC, apologies if your engine really does have SoS mags. Very unusual!

Generators? - oh yes, common on older engines!

I did not explain myself well. Many starters on Lycomings, once engaged, will not disengage the pinion from the ring gear, until started with the starter motor. With the pinion engaged, and coasting as you pull through, you likely cannot pull it through fast enough to get it started.

Thus, if you suspect that the starter will not start the engine, and you might have to hand prop it, don't attempt a starter start at all, to prevent getting the starter locked engaged.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation, that!.
The charging apparatus, wether Dynamo or Alternator (and some are designed with residual magnetism , so are self-exciting even with a totally flat battery) In either case, are speed-dependent for output.

Assuming you have hand-propped (and, yes, you can do it without an impulse mag) your initial charge rate will be the maximum the apparatus can deliver at those revs....so, keeping the revs down will reduce the charge-rate....meanwhile, the voltage on the battery-plates will rise rapidly as they take a surface- charge.....this opposes the charging voltage, (which is governed to prevent overcharging and "boiling" away the distilled water content of the sulphuric acid electrolyte)

Unfortunately, this charging circuit is normally a compromise and it will NOT deep-charge a "flat" battery....to preserve battery -life, do not deep-cycle apply a regular float-charge and, yes, avoid high-current charging ,other than the surface-charge which is removed during a "normal" easy start.

Radios should not be affected if you minimise voltage-spikes usually caused by disconnecting a slave"jump" battery prematurely....about 2 minutes of fast-idle should see a drop in charge-rate as both batteries are linked and their surface-charges equalise.

Above, of course, applies to Lead-Acid types, sealed,Gel or "wet".

Cockney Steve,

Interesting and valuable information - the kind of detail about aircraft systems that a pilot might learn by reading....... The flight manual for the aircraft!

How else would they know for certain what type of battery was installed, or alternator vs generator? Or, as BPF correctly mentioned, the proper selection of the battery master for the use of ground power!

Sure, there are some with oodles of experience with aircraft, who pretty well have some flight manuals memorized, and the aircraft systems equally so, but others are new, and need the resource. The regulations cannot tell who is who, so everyone is required to carry the flight manual - just in case!

If a placard is missing, and the pilot should know what it said, before it was scraped off by the passing bag, he could read the limitations section of the flight manual, and there it will be! I once nearly killed myself for not knowing the information on a placard, which had not been installed on a Cessna 303 I was flying - but it was in the flight manual - literally in fact, in a zip bag, stapled to the revised limitations page! The revised checklist also stated the newly prohibited operation - I wish I had read it before I tried it!

I watched a Mooney pilot/owner loose the skin from his knuckles, when attempting an emergency gear extension - you gotta pull that gear motor breaker before you turn the hand crank, or a few turns in, the motor will suddenly drive it, and as it comes around - Ouch!

I like flight manuals and checklists - and the skin on my knuckles!

If you prop swing an aircraft with a dead battery there's no guarantee the battery will charge with either an alternator or a generator.

In this situation very often the battery solenoid will not operate and the battery will not be connected to the aircraft electrical system. The generator or alternator will most likely run all the electrical systems but there will be no charge going to the battery.

The same can apply even when starting with a battery cart if the battery is dead flat.

Yes, it does. Yes, it is unusual. Please do feel free to come and look. There are others on this forum who have flown the aircraft in question, as obviously I, as the owner, know nothing about the aircraft. Don't bother looking in the flight manual though, my approved flight manual is a scruffy bundle of A4 sheets giving information on a different engine and prop, with no other information that cannot be found elsewhere.
But the CAA, who cannot be wrong, have approved mine, so who am I to disagree?

Step Turn, I agree that a proper flight manual is a useful thing to have. I don't think many go in to the kind of detailed information that Cockney Steve has shared with us.