Complacency is a dangerous thing. Being an impostor is also a dangerous thing.:=

Adopt a "security state of mind" and reduce the likelihood of being a victim of an aviation incident.:ok:

A checklist minimizes such a likelihood by providing a structured approach to performing aviation procedures in a consistent way. It assists in minimizing the risks of that "thinking process" when engaging in aviation context.

WP

Absolutely not! We've always been too busy trying to get that s-l-o-w roll really nice!

I did once leave my renewal too late to get a suitably qualified (tailwheel, aeros) instructor to sit in the back. So I did an hour with one of the other (flat earth) guys in a prosaic club PA38. No aeros of course, so I decided it'd be some instrument practice. He put some maps over my side of the windscreen and I put on the hood, and we did a bit of climbing, descending, vectoring onto headings while so doing - the usual 'under the hood' stuff.

I noticed that despite having cruise power set and the attitude where it should be, we were slowly descending. Himself was at a loss to explain this. So I came out from under the hood to to 'have a look'.

We were downwind of some seriously big mountains. "Lee side sink", I said. "Oh right", he said".

But at least he hadn't demanded to see my checklist (I do have a PA38 checklist in my flightbag, which was in the boot of my car at the time).

I wonder if any PA38 checklist has the line:

"If flying downwind of high hills, the aeroplane may experience a reduced rate of climb, or a descent when configured for level flight, and in extreme cases a rate of decent with full power that will have you into the ground in short order".

The best checklist I ever came across was in the film 'Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines'.

The German officer read from his checklist:

Nr 1 - Sit down!

:)

Consistently unthinking 'by rote' way? You're not getting it, are you?

Lovely! And actually, it perfectly illustrates the point I'm trying to make here.

checklists are very important to safe flying.

the ONLY time I didn't use a checklist, it was during a flight in a piper cub.

I had only ONE mag on for takeoff and virtually the whole flight.

CHECKLISTS, use em.

There isn't a good reason NOT to use them.

Glendale, if you need a checklist to ensure you switch on the second mag after starting a Cub, may I respectfully suggest Golf instead?

Or use a checklist that starts "Item 1: Sit down". ;)

Seriously, a very able but aging pilot I know of hung up his headset when he realised he'd flown a full hour in the Tiger Moth on only one mag. He reasoned, wisely in my view, that if his brain had addled enough for him to do that after many decades of not doing that, it was time to stop before something worse happened.

A good reason not to use checklists in simple single crew ops (other than ab initio when they can substitute for a level of knowledge not yet gained) is that they can mask 'not thinking'. And 'not thinking' while operating an aeroplane can be seriously life-threatening.

Nobody ever suggested that checklists can replace, or even reduce the need for, good airmanship, or the use of common sense and intelligence. Those who have all these properties in absolute total perfection can indeed do without.

The lesser gifted can use a checklist as one of the many possibilities to catch up with any little bit of imperfection popping up.

For myself, flying a very simple craft, I never saw the need for a checklist - till the day I took off with a fuel valve unopened. The engine ran fine during taxi, and while I waited for three planes before me to take off - plenty of time to go through the checklist! The engine hiccupped when I had about -100 metres of runway left - luckily I understood quick, and the engine never stopped, it came back to normal as soon as the valve was opened.

So Mr Skygod, good luck to you, we will eternally worship you and sing your praises. Remembering them from the appropriate checklist from time to time.

If ever you fall from the skies, please posthumously excuse me for coming to your funeral waving a big "WE TOLD YOU" banner.

shaggy sheep


I imagine if you only fly one or two types of planes, you will be comfortable without a checklist.

but if you fly dozens, checklists come in handy.

and by the time you get to the airlines, you can use the checklist process as part of the team building of CRM.

The only thing good about golf is that the golf courses can make landing spots if you need. Just yell FORE good and loud.

Hi Dom. Just in case you are still interested in an answer to your question, now that the pxxxxxg contest has died down a bit, :rolleyes: there is not much to choose between the three you have suggested. Of the three, I would buy the AFE one.

As to how you should use your checklist, which bits you memorise, whether you use it as a read-action or action-check, don't bother using it at all, etc etc, etc, ....that's between you and your instructor for now, and entirely up to you after you pass your test.


MJ:ok:

MJ, if you really think a discussion on whether check lists are appropriate in little aeroplanes is a pi55ing contest, you missed the point.

Drift from the OP's original point, maybe. But pi55ing contest it isn't.

OP Dom, What year 150 would you like the checklist for? I have most of the Cessna flight manuals, and perhaps I could help you get what you need.

Choosing to use a checklist is not wrong, choosing not to use one might not be wrong either, but you're taking responsibility for your actions, or lack thereof. I did my CPL flight test on the C 150 I had owned for 25 years, a few years back. I'd never really used a checklist, but the instructor reminded me that I'd better use one for the flight test. As I had 2700 hours in that plane, and fly it most days, I struggled to see the need for a checklist, other than that was the operational requirement for that flight. So I copied the APPROVED one from the flight manual - it is the ONLY legal one a pilot could use for that aircraft.

Sometimes I'll fly three or four rather different types in a day - then I'll use checklists on the unfamiliar ones. I one day flew My C 150 to work, then a Caravan, then a DA-42, then a Tiger Moth. The Moth did not seem to have a checklist with it, so I preplanned my own.

In my opinion, if you choose to use the Flight Manual checklist, that is your privilege, and responsible. It must not be a replacement for good airmanship, or familiarity with the aircraft. Other pilots should respect that. If you choose to read from a multi page novel to get a 150 up and back, and use it as the instructions as to how to operate the plane, I'm uneasy with that - your good training should already be telling you how to fly the plane, and what good airmanship is.

Look at the items on a C 150 checklist - what, if omitted, would enable you to get airborne, and be less safe up there? There's really not too much you can miss in such a simple plane. But once you have retractable gear, fuel pumps, cowl flaps, auto feather, and varied operations, a checklist gets to be a good idea. A pilot who tells me they can safely fly anything without reference to the aircraft checklist worries me.....

Truly worries me also.

To the OP, welcome to the world of Pprune. Please use a checklist for your flying. Flying is a building block approach, A, B, C, D etc. the checklist is an aid to ensure that you are proceeding with your learning curve, and are safe in doing so. It is very easy to miss something, if doing from memory.

Yes, we all know the ones that kick the tires, light the fires, and spiral themselves into the blue yonder. Good for you. One day it might just go pear shaped, like having the fuel caps left on the Tarmac, or the pullrod left on the front wheel, or heaven forbid, a circuit breaker gone on your comm unit etc etc.

My view, checklists enhance and confirm good airmanship. Good luck with the Cessna 150....

Interesting views. I learnt on an air squadron. ALL checks and procedures were memorised and I've been using that method since, even on my ppl tests.

In fact if you apply logic all the checks are basically the same in any simple SEP. once a pilot has answered the question 'whats the fuelling arrangement, do I have flaps, if so electric or not, do I have fixed or constant speed prop, do I have retractable gear, do I have an O or IO upfront the checks can be amended accordingly adding or removing what needs to be checked. Flying on one Mag is the same as leaving flaps down or flying full rich ad 6000 ft or forgetting to switch on the radio.

Cut a long story short, I ve used the checks I learnt on a bulldog 25 years ago in extended or abbreviated format from memory for every plane I've flown since and no one has ever complained. Each to his own of course.

An unprofessional "kick the tyres light the fires" attitude has NOTHING to do with not using check lists in simple aeroplanes. But I suspect you know that. :rolleyes:

Camargue. I have a good number of hours on Chipmunks. I learnt to fly in one, then owned one, and displayed it. Issue, I jump from that to a Cessna 310, out of that into a YAK 50, out of that into a Baron, out of that into a YAK 52, and on.

Now, with the Chipmunk, I had no need to look at a list, I knew it inside out, but getting into multiple types, then I see a real benefit.

It may just be me, but the utilization of a checklist, ensures that one does not, or would minimize, the chance of missing something.

If you are in that mind set from day one, ie using a list, it stays with you. Also there is nothing wrong with, guided by the POH, having your own list made up. I have it in the Bonanza, made by the guy who operated it before me.

The need for a written checklist in a C 150 is modest, so discussion about complex aircraft and checklists amounts to thread drift. But, at a more basic level, and in the theme of those who memorize their checklists, I think in terms of "Configuration Assurance". It is not so much aircraft type dependent, as operation dependent.

At every change in a phase of flight, ask yourself: "Is the aircraft configured for what I'm going to do with it next?" Then, if need be, use a checklist.

I can jump into a Cessna 182, and pretty well have have things memorized. I can jump into a 182 RG, and add "gear" to my thinking. However, if I take the amphibian version of a 182, and land it on the water with the wheels down, it's going to end badly, and be my fault. So it's not a non thinking "wheels down for landing", it's "what am I doing with this plane next? Is the plane correctly configured for it?".

I would not criticize a pilot for using a paper checklist. But a dedication to assuring configuration for what you're about to do is basic airmanship - a checklist can be weak for making that up. It probably works for the plane, but towbars, chocks and fuel caps are rarely mentioned on the approved checklist for an aircraft - they are airmanship. "I'm about to move it, and fly it, is it configured and secure?"....

Think about your configuration assurance, and use the checklist if you need it.

Yes Pilot DAR, but it is a mindset. The building mentality. If you learn from memory, great. But it is about all aspects of airmanship. A lot goes on pre flight. Not all can be done by sole ref to memory.

On longer navigation trips it becomes, I think, more important. The checklist, is part of that flight. If you think about all you complete. I am not talking here about jumping into the Cub, from the grass strip, to go for a 30 minute flight.

The thread moved to training and checklists and operations, then to the old debate about should you, shoud'nt you. It is all very well for experienced, multi houred pilots, to pour slight scorn on the use of a checklist, but that is the point that some of us are trying to state, is not that helpful.

But even then you wouldn't be using paper checklists in the air single crew, or would you?

Maxred I take your point, never flown a 310 so no idea but starting an m14 p? Hell one could fire up an aeio 580, fly several unlimited sequnces and land before the 14 even had the oil in the right place to attempt a start.

My point really is that with a logical and sensible approach you can make and use your own check list for the vast majority of simple sep's. yaks and sukhois excluded!

The danger with memorised checks of course is that you won't remember you forgot a check. !!

But this is something that can be decided with experience and the op can make his own mind up in due course. For now, he should do as instructed!

I think that when someone (especially someone new) asks a perfectly reasonable and simple question, he/she at least deserves an answer, before people start hijacking the thread to exercise their own conflicting hobby horses.


MJ:ok:

Not quite though.:=

The Cirrus pilot's checklists clearly stipulates removal of tiedown rope, tow bar removal and stow, etc.

3. Empennage
a. Tiedown rope_____Remove

7. Right Wing Forward and Main Gear
g. Chocks and Tiedown Ropes______Remove

9. Nose gear, Propeller, and Spinner
a. Tow Bar______________________Remove

Yes, it is elementary, but serves the purpose which is enhance situational awareness.

Had it been the cirrus pilot followed the checklist, the prop-strike could have been avoided.:ugh:

WP

Fair enough, I have never flown a Cirrus. It's the new way I suppose...

I write a number of Flight Manual Supplements, which are approved as a part of an STC on an aircraft. When I write these, I review them, and ask myself "what can I cut out of this, to make it brief, effective, and safe?". Airmanship has to play a part in getting and keeping a plane in the sky safely. The longer a checklist is, the more likely it'll be skipped or ignored. I focus on those things which will result in an unsafe situation if forgotten, and are unique to that aircraft, or class of aircraft.

I sure would rather add one item, of "controls free and correct" than four or so items of "remove control lock......". Chocks and tiedowns - nope! let the pilot feel the embarrassment of trying to taxi a restrained aircraft - they'll never forget that again!

If a new C 150 pilot would like to use a checklist to build airmanship, I'm good with that. It's a tool, not a crutch....

I'm astounded at some of the logic being used here. If either pilot needed a checklist to avoid these incidents then I'm afraid he/she shouldn't have a licence.

Both incidents would have been avoided by a normal post flight or pre flight walk around. There should be no need to have a piece of paper in your hand telling you what to look for in cases like these.

Over a thousand hours in C150, never used or taught with written checklist, all memory items. That said, no problem with checklists - they are required with more complex aircraft.

The main thing to remember though is even in Airline flying : they are a CHECK list, not a DO list!:ok:

So, you configure the aircraft from memory, then use checklist to CHECK that you have done everything.;)

I would suggest our checklist are pretty close. The only difference is I listed the individual items in the Left to Right check. Since this checklist was built for PPL students this helps them learn all of the steps and since it lows it goes pretty fast.

Most airplanes have at least one item peculiar to them which is why I don't like generic checklists. For example your check list does not address the primer. If it is not locked in fuel will flow continually through it to the engine causing an excessively rich mixture, rough running and a significant loss of power. Not such a big deal on the C 172 but much more noticeable on the C 150 so it is an item that IMO should be explicitly addressed in the checklist.

Finally with respect to the runup, I am dismayed by how many pilots do the run up actions by rote with out any understanding of what they are checking and what to look for.

For example in the runup you check the mags and the left mag has a 40 RPM drop but the right mag has no drop at all. I have met many pilots who when presented with this situation think that they have an especially good right mag and they are good to go :ugh:

What I see here is a confusion between use of SOP's and use of checklists. I teach that just before the student turns the key he/she calls out "clear, towbar out". What will occasionally happen is he will make the call and then say "wait I am not absolutely sure the tow bar is out". " Go look" is what I will tell them.

I have had a student come back to me several years later and say the habit of that stopped him from starting the engine with the tow bar still on. How that came to pass was the classic change of plan with the towbar removed and then just before getting in, a hanger door opened behind the airplane necessitating moving it followed by being distracted by questions from the passenger.

My point is that building those good habitual SOP's provides the required safety net without writing down everything. The same goes for chocking the airplane. From day one my student learns that you never walk away from the airplane without at lest one chock on the pilot side wheel.

BPF, I take the point about the piece of paper you give to the guy on lesson 1, vs the more streamlined version you might encourage as they progress (once they actually know what they need to do with the DG etc).

My primer check is at the end of the after-start list although, to be totally honest, when I learned to fly a C150 in the warmish parts of Australia, the primer was hardly ever unlocked - some quick pumps of the throttle are enough to get the average 0-200 away. I later learned that this was viewed as a mortal sin (with some justification) but generations of muster pilots managed well enough.

I agree re the tow-bar and similar items: these are things you really have to build into to what you call SOPs but which I might call situational awareness at all times. For what it's worth, I never leave the tow bar attached to an aircraft if I'm not actually holding it: if I have to walk away, I put the tow bar in front of one of the main wheels where, if I do run over it (heaven forbid), it'll cause a small bump. It was something suggested to me early on and I never thought too much about it until, a few months ago, I saw an instructor about to start an Arrow with the tow-bar attached. We managed to attract his attention but it was a near thing.

And there's the famous US incident of the PA24 and the tow-bar, of course.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pumping the throttle as long as the starter is turning the propeller. Indeed the Continental engine in the C 150 should start almost immediately if warm or properly primed. If the prop has made a half dozen rotations and has not started a few quick pumps will usually be all that is need to get an immediate start.

In any case the C 150 POH does specifically allow it.

The OP's question was where to buy a checklist. Four pages and 67 posts later and the question hasn't been answered.

No, the original question was which checklist to go for.

Well yes although the poster did say he needed to buy one. All the same he/she still doesn't have an answer.

He can use the perfectly good one written out in full by BPF and save himself the money.

Well at one point, I did welcome him to the world of Pprune....:O

There was one answer to the question, but I seriously doubt that the OP bothered to follow this thread beyond the fist few repiles. :sad:


MJ:ok:

Anybody with an interest or opinions about the use of checklists would get a lot out of reading a book called "The checklist manifesto" by Atul Gawande. He's the fellow who took aviation (and other) checklist practices and introduced them into surgery. A local version of the WHO Safe Surgery Checklist is now mandatory, I believe, in all NHS operating theatres and other versions used throughout the world. There are research papers to show that they've saved a lot of lives.



A further thought or three:-

Checklists can be used in three ways:-

(1) Read-do
(2) Do, confirm
(3) Challenge and response

So let's put the nonsense about never using checklists as a list of actions to carry out aside. Read-do, is a perfectly legitimate way to use a checklist, just not the only way, and may not sometimes be the best way.



However, one major advantage of a checklist, however used, is that it frees up a chunk of mental capacity to then spend on thinking about the stuff that really needs the skills and reasoning capacity of the expert (pilot, surgeon, stockbroker...). That comes across very clearly and well in Gawande's book, which is one of the most impressive books I've ever read about how to achieve professionalism.


Original poster - if you've not lost all will to live, I have access to somebody's personal system (sort of a checklist, sort of not) that I know works well in the C150, and I use in my instructing. If you want to PM me an email address and which model C150 you are planning to fly, I'll ask them if they'd email you a copy.


G

I disagree. By post 12, three of us had suggested that the OP obtain the genuine Cessna checklist from the POH. That checklist, combined with good airmanship, and a knowledge of any local and/or operator requirements (SOPs), would be all that is needed to operate the aircraft safely.

For a newish PPL, renting an unknown C150, the realelephant in the room has not been addressed.

having read many accounts on PPrune, I append a tongue in cheek addendum to exascot's "checklist.


A- Are SID's complied with?
Yes...go to 1
NO- B- Wings still firmly attached?

Yes. say prayers, go to 1
no... walk away alive.

C Main landing gear still attached?
Yes...say prayers go to 1
no... call scrapman
do not attempt to go to 1

Even though the aircraft has a Certificate of Airworthiness, the many horror-stories resultant from SIDS inspections, would suggest thatthese amazingly long-lived, robust aircraft are increasingly flying on the "excess-strength" margin.

Thread drift but I'll bite.

A couple of comments.

SIDS are only mandatory in the USA for Air Transport aircraft. If things were so bad why were they not made into an AD which is mandatory for all aircraft?

If an aircraft has been maintained properly, and looked after during its life so far, then the SIDS will generally not find anything of major concern.

With the aforementioned in mind, and knowing the penchant in the UK for doing things by the book, I'm surprised by your comment "the many horror-stories resultant from SIDS inspections"

The only horror stories have been the eye watering amounts that some owners have been charged for the work.

write own checklist based on info from POH, even comprehensive checklist with touch and go infos etc would be small, there is not much you can do in 150 :)

I will put my hand up and say that I did over 1000 hours in SEP's without using a physical checklist.

Yes I did use them when told to during training.

All examinations in SEP's since then I haven't used them and its never been commented on including low digit exam call signs for FI tests.

The light aircraft stuff is quite bizarre how much stuff there is in them.

My work machine start checklist is 4 items.

TAxi 4 items

Lineup 5 items

After T/O 4 items

Decent 3 items

Appr 4 items.

Landing 6 items.

After landing is a flow.

And shut down is a flow.

Putting the aircraft to bed 6 items.