ATC service on frequency change
 

I'm interested in others' views of an incident that happened to me a month ago which is still niggling at the back of my mind.

I won't mention the ATC's concerned, but I'm flying IFR in IMC at FL55 in Class G airspace, in receipt of a Traffic Service. Everything going well, holding heading and level, been handed from one ATC unit to another without problem and come to the point of being handed to the next.

Told to change squawk, confirmed, and then told to 'Contact XXX on [frequency]'

After signing off, I change frequency and contact XXX, the response is 'Standby'.

My problem is that at FL55 I am approaching a boundary where the airspace becomes Class D (at 2000 feet plus). The Class D is controlled by XXX. I can't get around that without going massively out to sea.

I'm perfectly happy to descend to below 2000 ft (cloudbase is 3000 ft), become VFR and remain below the Class D (2000 feet plus). However, in descending I don't know what is beneath me in terms of other traffic (it is Class G so there could be non-radio, in contact with other units etc), and I'm not sure what the legality would have been of me descending given that at that point I was flying IFR outside controlled airspace and therefore subject to the quadrantial rules. I also don't know the local QNH to gauge my altitude at.

I'm equally happy continuing IFR on track at FL55 subject to getting the zone clearance.

What I can't do is do nothing.

I'd hoped that by being told to 'contact' as opposed to 'free call' the new ATC unit would have had my details, my intended destination and that I was flying under IFR. They would (I would hope) know the meteorological conditions and I was assuming therefore that they would be aware of the deadend situation that I was flying into.

All the time of 'standing by' I was aware of the brick wall of Class D approaching - I slowed the plane down to the lowest speed I was comfortable with whilst maintaining level.

I appreciate controller workload, so far as radio traffic was concerned all that it sounded like was one training Radar Vectored ILS (the controller may have been covering other frequencies as well though?)

After four minutes I stopped 'standing by' and made another radio call (without interrupting any obvious radio transmissions from anyone else). In the end I was given Basic Service only due to controller workload but told there was no known traffic to affect a descent. I was also given Zone Clearance if needed during the descent.

So, it all worked out OK but by not standing by I could tell there was some frustration on the part of the controller. I accept that, I hadn't followed instruction to 'standby'.

I'm interested in others' comments (nice or otherwise):-

- Should I have descended 'blind', thus ignoring quadrantial rules ?
- Was I right to ignore the 'standby' instruction (albeit after four minutes) ?
- Is it reasonable to expect a new ATC unit to see the problem that I was going to be faced with ?
- I don't think I had any service agreement whatsoever with the new ATC unit at the point of 'standby' - as we had not agreed anything at that point, but is that correct ?
- Anything else I could/should have done ?

Thanks in anticipation ...

I'm not familiar with IFR flying, but if I want to cross an airspace that needs permission you can't enter without it. If going around the airspace is not practical or safe, you can always do a 360. But if there was no response I would get impatient as well at some point. Note that the controller might be very busy on other frequencies.

Quite often in IFR one is given a fix/tp/clearance point. I suppose in reality one should fly to the boundary then orbit until cleared. However, you did exactly what I would have done, especially if the frequency is quiet. I often remind ATC that I cannot stop!

- Should I have descended 'blind', thus ignoring quadrantial rules ?
Quadrantal Rules would not apply as you would not be maintaining constant Track and constant Level - However I would not want to descend through a cloud layer (as you describe) blind either.
- Was I right to ignore the 'standby' instruction (albeit after four minutes) ?
Yes, I don't think I would have waited so long
- Is it reasonable to expect a new ATC unit to see the problem that I was going to be faced with ?
Probably not if you haven't told them - you don't know what, if any information, the previous ATC had passed to them.
- I don't think I had any service agreement whatsoever with the new ATC unit at the point of 'standby' - as we had not agreed anything at that point, but is that correct ?
I would agree - correct
- Anything else I could/should have done ?
I think you have illustrated one of the problems of IFR in Class G airspace, particularly as you were also IMC.

Perhaps you shouldn't have had a Plan A which took you through Controlled Airspace without a more useable Plan B.

What was your initial call to this station?
Even if not technically correct I would suggest something like:
"G-ABCD, On Handover from ZZZZZZZ, Squawking 1234, FL55, IMC, approaching your Zone, Request Zone Transit"

Presumably a suitably addressed filed flight plan might have helped, (if in fact you hadn't filed one)

Problem is, in that situation, you don't know whether you're being handed over, and probably aren't. The stock ATC answer from the new controller would probably be "Remain clear of controlled airspace, standby."

Happens quite a lot. Sometimes certain LARS controllers have already asked you for information about your proposed onward routing, which leads one to think that a handover is being arranged. Then you get the unwanted call...."Service terminates, Squawk 7000, free call XXXX Radar on frequency XXX.x"

Consider yourself dumped!

If you have been given a squawk(not 7000) then they must have your details.They could have said" cleared zone transit FL55" as easily as "standby".... Not being very helpful really.

Perhaps you could have said" approaching zone boundary,confirm cleared zone transit" cheeky , yes but they weren't being helpful either. It seems some atc's have a reputation for being less helpful than others when transits are requested.

Quadrantals don't apply descending/climbing.

Flying IFR in class G airspace gives you no more protection than anyone else bimmbling along VFR and not talking to anyone. As for receiving a Traffic Service, once again that's the lowest form of radar service available and subject to controller workload will you be advised of any traffic around you.

As the route you were flying took you into class D controlled airspace you would need to obtain an entry clearance from that controlling agency before you enter. As for being told to standby you seem not to understand that at times in ATC we can get quite busy.....the fact you hear nothing over the radio doesn't mean we are not busy...telephones etc.

Maybe a good time to try and visit an ATC agency to see that most of the time we are not sitting on our arses twiddling our thumbs. :cool:

fisbangwallop

Maybe you're not 'sitting on your arses, twiddling your thumbs', as you so elegantly put it but, what your reply is doing, is being condescending and dismissive towards anyone who is non commercial and therefore not contributing to NATS coffers !

You are an outstanding reason why many 'bimblers' don't like talking to ATC.

Fisbang, I think most pilots understand how busy an ATCO can be and how rapidly workload can increase to an almost impossible level.

From a mere pilots perspective, it's more helpful if a pilot gets advance warning that a handover may not be possible due to controller workload and that a free call will be necessary.

It occasionally happens that a controller, out of the best of intentions, hangs on" to an aircraft a little too long. The pilot is becoming increasingly aware that he needs to obtain a clearance in short order but can't just leave the present frequency, having been told to stand by. But if he carries on regardless he will bust airspace so must take action ASAP.

The lesson for pilots is to have plan B already thought out. It's not the end of the world to reduce speed and/or put in an ad hoc holding pattern.

Took your advise a while back & decided to pay swanky state of the art NATS (at Swanwick) a visit just to see how ATCO personnel get down 'behind the scenes' so to speak. Must admit I was overwhelmed by the observation of how ATCOs conduct themselves. The floor room (where the different bands/sectors get delegated to controllers) looked like a bloody stock market floor. It can get very vocal in there & from an outsider perspective it seemed to look unorganised & panic/ frenzy like at times the way you lot go about your business :}

All in all the trip was a right eye opener ( I too had the notion that ATC weren't as busy as they made out to be when pleading with them in the air) . Anyway to summarise , my respect for ATC has grown tenfold on the back of that trip, especially after watching the amount of traffic (Ga/commercial etc) you guys have to juggle on those massive LCD screens. After shadowing this controller who was working the South East (apparently most busiest area band) sector, it finally dawned on that this guy is responsible for all those endless amounts of lives in the air at any given time:eek:

As a commercial pilot in training it was to see nice or (rather educative) to see the other side of the coin .....cheers for keeping the skies safe guys (& girls) :ok:

P.s: Someone really needs to give those D&D guys some action...they really seem overly chilled back there...its a ghost town so to speak:}

Yep, and some stupid 2nd OFF on a commercial will tell you off!

edited to add that it's not unknown for 'them' to ask for football results on this frequency!

Capt KremmenI take exception to your remarks......I think you will find that all that know me on this forum or in real life realise how much time and effort( mostly in my own spare time) to helping the GA community especially up here in Scotland.
I spend a fair amount of my time visiting flying clubs and indeed inviting clubs to visit my unit so that they can get a better understanding and perspective on the work that we do.
I must admit at times I get a wee bit agitated when I read some posts when some GA pilots don't seem to grasp the full picture of what ATC is about and the reasons we are here!!

Capt Kremmen,

I must add that you really did pick the person least deserving for your comments.

I suppose it is always a risk making critical remarks on an anonymous forum but this guy has probably done more for ATC and private pilot relations than anyone else in this country. He, and his colleagues offer a really first class service often patiently dealing with long winded stumbling transmissions from supposedly experienced pilots. This they do with good humour and friendliness to everybody.

D.O.

There are still some aircraft with 2nd officers on board?

I doubt any of us really underestimates how busy it can be for ATC at times but leaving somebody 4 minutes on 'standby' seems a bit long, especially on an apparent handover. I'm sure I'd start to think I'd been forgotten after a couple of minutes which can seem a long time in the air on a frequency that appears quiet.

There is an added flight safety risk with the stress level of being left hanging without a clearance to enter and approaching controlled airspace. As others have said better to have a plan B already worked out in your head.

Better again would be something along the excellent response I had when approaching Lakenheath recently when after the standard initial call the response was 'G-*** clear to enter Lakenheath MATZ, standby'

Capt Kremmen - as D.O. says - FBW is a great advocate of GA. Many of us have met him and many more of us have talked to him at Scottish Information. We appreciate his energy and drive for GA - he and his team to a brilliant job during the working day, never mind all of the additional time he spends outside of the day job.

The wrong person to accuse!

As others have said - there is no way for a pilot in the air to know what the person on the other end of the radio is doing. He could be managing multiple frequencies (I know at Prestwick, at quiet times tower and approach are manned by the same person), could be sorting out coordination on the phone for someone else, could be dealing with an emergency.

When told to "Contact" the next station, I would expect coordination to have taken place, especially if you have been given a squawk for the next frequency and if they are going to be too busy get a warning from the previous station. I've even had clearance through (for example) Glasgow Zone when still talking to Prestwick Approach. However until given clearance, you can't assume anything, so you have to have a plan B. If IFR that is going to be inconvenient, especially if not using a GPS, but probably involves (at least until you are told a firm "no") a hold of some sort.

If you are IFR within Controlled Airspace - it's all much easier as all clearances will be organised.

(Note - I've little real-world experience so take this with the authority that it provides (ie - none!).

A clearance to enter a MATZ is not required for civil aircraft, however, it seems a helpful response if there is nothing much happening inside the MATZ and the controller is otherwise occupied.

I do know that! It was the helpful response on initial call I was highlighting.

don'toverfil

Well, I'll take your word for it. But, if you re-read the comment there is more than a hint of censure there !

I used to talk to ATC. Now, I avoid CAS like the plague. Why ? I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that after listening to many on route exchanges that are often testy, short tempered and in many cases because of the rapid and therefore barely intelligable rate of ATC speech, are often diifficult to understand, I am better off avoiding all together.

Yes, I do agree, many GA pilots are hesitant with lots of errs and umms. Could they be nervous and apprehensive? What they don't need is some pressurised and therefore short tempered ATC adding to their nervousness.

Not every GA pilot is an ATP. Some are barely thru' their training. Some are well thru' their training but gaining experience. ATC be kind to them all and cut them some slack !

Dear FBW, I have never had the pleasure of meeting you in real life and not even on one of your frequencies (haha!) but it seems obvious from your postings here, always civil and positive and always down to facts, that only the fewest could criticise you.

And it seems equally obvious that Cpt. K. is much more agitated than I have ever read you, for much less apparent reason.

Keep up the good work!

PS let it be clear that, as long as I can hold out, I will not cross the English Channel until I can legally do so at an altitude that will keep me within gliding distance of terra firma - but if ever I do, I will make it a point of honour to enter your airspace, were it only to say goodbye!

Capt kremmen. I'm gonna have to add my tuppence here. You have obviously never spoken to Scottish on 119.875 otherwise you might know what you're talking about.
You have certainly picked the wrong person to complain about I can assure you. FBW is very well thought of up here along with his entire crew.

Wow......I have to say I feel very humbled at the nice words a few of you have said about myself and fellow Scottish info colegues :p I guess it's because of the likes of you GA folk and your enthusiasm for flying that helps make my job such a pleasant one :cool:
I must admit I feel rather sad at the response of Captain K and what appears to be his desire not to bother talking to ATC.....I guess at some stage he has had a bad experience and I can certainly say if he was to fly up here in Scotland I am certain his feelings may differ somewhat. So Captain K should you ever dare venture north of the border, please let me know so if at all possible I can buy you a beer and also show you around our wonderful ATC centre up here :ok:

I've had similar experiences of being 'dumped' by ATC - East Midlands once abandoned me at FL50 in IMC but importantly, that was after they had facilitated my transit IFR through their zone, not before. It's not helpful (and the air went a bit blue at the time, though in my defence I would say that I was solo) but I understand that my transit wasn't exactly their primary responsibility.

A Plan B is important but it's also important to think about your exit strategy at all stages - what if I can't get a clearance here after getting one here, &c.

I can see the frustration at what some folk see as being dumped by ATC but you must understand each ATC unit is generally only interested in its own piece of airspace. If your lucky and the ATC unit is not too busy they will pass your details on to the next suitable ATC agency.......however what you must understand is that the passing of information does not necessary mean you will automatically be cleared into thei next units airspace as the original poster to this forum found out.
What I would suggest is if you know there is controlled airspace ahead call the controlling authority in good time and always either have a plan B or be prepared to hold prior to receiving a clearance to enter that airspace.
What often will help especially for those units that use EFD ( electronic flight data) would be to file a VFR/IFR flight plan and make sure you address it to the unit who's airspace you wish to cross.......this won't guarantee you a crossing but at least the controller will already gave your basic details on his electronic strip display..........I hope this Helps to understand how the system works.
And remember this VFR or IFR ATC is there to help and not to hinder and as far as I am concerned a wee C152 with low time PPL is as an important customer to my Company as a fully loaded IFR B747. :cool:

Speaking of busy controllers....one overworked guy was doing a bilingual service on Poitiers approach, tower, zone and info last time I spoke to him. They don't seem to mind which frequency one uses on initial call :)
Our airfield is under the TMA, which at that point is class E. I wish we had listening squawks here, and I suspect the Poitiers controller would too.
Fisbangwallop, how helpful do you find them?

A single person working four frequencies in two languages?! Impressive - no matter how much or little traffic there was around.

And yes, a "listening squawk" sounds like a good idea, I only learned of the concept recently. I really should get that old transponder of mine back under power, seems it could still be useful.

Thanks everyone for your responses, apologies that I seem to have started a bickering match which certainly wasn't the intention.

For the record I always talk to whichever ATC unit I am flying in the area of and wouldn't criticise them - even in the original post I alluded to the fact the ATCO may have been talking to other frequencies.

To clarify, plan A was to descend and transit VFR under the Class D, the hoped for zone clearance at FL55 was always Plan B. Penetrating without clearance was never an option ! With the zone boundary coming up it was clear that I was unlikely to get a clearance, all I needed was a little help and reassurance that following plan A wasn't going to land me on top of someone. I am sorry that on this occasion to get this comfort I ended up adding to the pressure that the ATCO was operating under.

Learning curve for me is that 'Contact' doesn't mean exactly what I thought it did.

Re 23

fisbangwollop

Thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on that beer ! I can omly imagine that down here (South) our otherwise charming, polite and skilled ATC at times become a little tense !

Or, perhaps I'm imagining it.

150 Driver.......after 42 years in the job I still realise every day is a school day....sadly there are folk around that think they know everything and are unwilling to listen to other views.

I hover on this forum at times and try my best to give my views as I see it from over the ATC fence, after all it's you GA guys that keep me in my job so I applaud you for continuing to speak to ATC when ever you can.

Going back to your original post you say you were operating IFR in VMC conditions, from that am I correct in guessing that was because you had filed an IFR flight plan......if so I would be interested in hearing your thinking on that when operating mainly in class G airspace.

From CAP 413:
CONTACT: Establish communications with... (your details have been passed).

A few times I've been told to "contact" another frequency but get the reply "pass your details" after first contact. Not a big problem as my workload was low at the time. Could have been a mistake from controller - he was busier than me and we all have slight hiccups now and then!

Another option could have been to request an earlier change of frequency to your next unit. Something like "G-CD requesting change to XXX radar 123.45 to arrange zone transit".

Fisbang, to clarify on this occasion I was flying IFR in IMC not VMC

That said, when flying cross country and where controlled airspace allows (i.e. I don't look for zone clearance for the hell of it) I do prefer to fly IFR even in VMC

152.....ah sorry misread your original post, didn't see the IMC bit I am sure it said VFR, must be a senior moment!!
Anyway no problems with looking for a crossing of class D, you don't need to be IFR to do that, VFR is OK if met conditions permit. See chart below.

I quite often set my customers up for crossing Edinburgh's class D by passing Edinburgh ATC the details however after transferring the aircraft to Edinburgh they still need to recieve that crossing clearance from Edinburgh so on initial contact if told to standby they should ensure they remain clear of CAS until receiving that clearance. If your ever north of the border give me a shout and I'll gladly organise a visit to out ATC centre.:cool:
https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/200890...ficationV3.pdf

Capt K....No problem....and Im sure your imagination is fine ;)

150 Driver - Everyone else has forgotten about this so far on here. But why didn't you file an IFR flight plan and remain inside controlled airspace? Did your instructor forget?

You're flying IFR in IMC. Don't weave around in uncontrolled airspace unless you really have to or you'll just be treated like other VFR traffic where you get a service if they have spare capacity to work you and you're left picking up ice and flying lower with high workload and risk of hitting terrain and obstacles.

File an IFR flight plan inside controlled airspace instead. ATC works with you the whole way. From their core capacity. Not their spare capacity. After filing you will be able to obtain a whole route clearance to your destination! Incredibly nice, easy and seamless, and you can fly for hundreds of miles like this along the airway system.

I'm guessing that:

He didn't want to double his track miles by going out of his way to find CAS

It was impractical/impossible for his aircraft to climb to the base levels of most CAS in the UK airways system.

His aircraft wasn't equiped for IFR flight in Class A airspace.

He was flying IFR with an IMC rating, not an IR, so couldnt fly in class 'A' airspace.

Aside from those things, i've no idea why he wasn't on an IFR Flight Plan inside CAS. :rolleyes:


MJ:ok:

Having an IFR flight plan means absolutely nothing once you go into class G. Once you leave controlled airspace you are on your own until someone clears you back into controlled.

Commercially we handle it by.

1. Get speaking to the next controller on box 2 5-10 mins before you get anywhere near the controlled airspace.

2. Dump who every your getting a service from when you want to and don't be bullied into staying with them. Its class G ignore their bleating if they want to keep you and be a Captain.

3. Have a escape route ie never put your aircraft somewhere that you can't escape without busting airspace. Be very careful choosing left or right to turn away.

Personally I don't take a service off these approach units anyway in class G because they are just a pain in the backside these days and don't realistically offer you any real safety benefit with the rubbish level of service that they are willing to provide. If they give you more its because it is for their benefit not yours so they can move you out the way of their own traffic.

So basically grow a pair and be a Captain control the situation, they are there to provide you a service not the other way round. If they are not helpful don't speak to them again and then they have the problem of trying to fit a 737 under a de-confliction service though multiple unknown traffic paints.

D.O.Now, now don't go dragging me into this, no need to get personal :ok:

Back on subject, the way I see it you're in uncontrolled airspace so you're on your own, any help you get from ATC is a bonus. As for getting anxious about approaching a zone while waiting on standby this is what you train for as a pilot, expect the unexpected, be the boss and take charge of the situation by perhaps starting an ad hoc hold. I do it all the time when i bump up against CAS that has snuck up on me earlier than i thought it would and am told to keep clear. As MJ says be careful which way you turn to circle, I've had a few bollockings for going the wrong way. You can normally tell when you have turned the wrong way as the second "remain clear of controlled airspace" call normally has a bit more of an authoritarian tone.

Mach Jump, correct on every point.

If I am on IFR an G and ATC is putting me on hold right before a class D, I tune COM2 to the tower freq of the D space and talk to them while standing by on COM1. Same I do at these allover popping up TMA/TMZ zones, when I am unsure about possible traffic conflicts - COM1 on ATC, COM2 on local tower.