Dear FBW, I have never had the pleasure of meeting you in real life and not even on one of your frequencies (haha!) but it seems obvious from your postings here, always civil and positive and always down to facts, that only the fewest could criticise you.

And it seems equally obvious that Cpt. K. is much more agitated than I have ever read you, for much less apparent reason.

Keep up the good work!

PS let it be clear that, as long as I can hold out, I will not cross the English Channel until I can legally do so at an altitude that will keep me within gliding distance of terra firma - but if ever I do, I will make it a point of honour to enter your airspace, were it only to say goodbye!

Capt kremmen. I'm gonna have to add my tuppence here. You have obviously never spoken to Scottish on 119.875 otherwise you might know what you're talking about.
You have certainly picked the wrong person to complain about I can assure you. FBW is very well thought of up here along with his entire crew.

Wow......I have to say I feel very humbled at the nice words a few of you have said about myself and fellow Scottish info colegues :p I guess it's because of the likes of you GA folk and your enthusiasm for flying that helps make my job such a pleasant one :cool:
I must admit I feel rather sad at the response of Captain K and what appears to be his desire not to bother talking to ATC.....I guess at some stage he has had a bad experience and I can certainly say if he was to fly up here in Scotland I am certain his feelings may differ somewhat. So Captain K should you ever dare venture north of the border, please let me know so if at all possible I can buy you a beer and also show you around our wonderful ATC centre up here :ok:

I've had similar experiences of being 'dumped' by ATC - East Midlands once abandoned me at FL50 in IMC but importantly, that was after they had facilitated my transit IFR through their zone, not before. It's not helpful (and the air went a bit blue at the time, though in my defence I would say that I was solo) but I understand that my transit wasn't exactly their primary responsibility.

A Plan B is important but it's also important to think about your exit strategy at all stages - what if I can't get a clearance here after getting one here, &c.

I can see the frustration at what some folk see as being dumped by ATC but you must understand each ATC unit is generally only interested in its own piece of airspace. If your lucky and the ATC unit is not too busy they will pass your details on to the next suitable ATC agency.......however what you must understand is that the passing of information does not necessary mean you will automatically be cleared into thei next units airspace as the original poster to this forum found out.
What I would suggest is if you know there is controlled airspace ahead call the controlling authority in good time and always either have a plan B or be prepared to hold prior to receiving a clearance to enter that airspace.
What often will help especially for those units that use EFD ( electronic flight data) would be to file a VFR/IFR flight plan and make sure you address it to the unit who's airspace you wish to cross.......this won't guarantee you a crossing but at least the controller will already gave your basic details on his electronic strip display..........I hope this Helps to understand how the system works.
And remember this VFR or IFR ATC is there to help and not to hinder and as far as I am concerned a wee C152 with low time PPL is as an important customer to my Company as a fully loaded IFR B747. :cool:

Speaking of busy controllers....one overworked guy was doing a bilingual service on Poitiers approach, tower, zone and info last time I spoke to him. They don't seem to mind which frequency one uses on initial call :)
Our airfield is under the TMA, which at that point is class E. I wish we had listening squawks here, and I suspect the Poitiers controller would too.
Fisbangwallop, how helpful do you find them?

A single person working four frequencies in two languages?! Impressive - no matter how much or little traffic there was around.

And yes, a "listening squawk" sounds like a good idea, I only learned of the concept recently. I really should get that old transponder of mine back under power, seems it could still be useful.

Thanks everyone for your responses, apologies that I seem to have started a bickering match which certainly wasn't the intention.

For the record I always talk to whichever ATC unit I am flying in the area of and wouldn't criticise them - even in the original post I alluded to the fact the ATCO may have been talking to other frequencies.

To clarify, plan A was to descend and transit VFR under the Class D, the hoped for zone clearance at FL55 was always Plan B. Penetrating without clearance was never an option ! With the zone boundary coming up it was clear that I was unlikely to get a clearance, all I needed was a little help and reassurance that following plan A wasn't going to land me on top of someone. I am sorry that on this occasion to get this comfort I ended up adding to the pressure that the ATCO was operating under.

Learning curve for me is that 'Contact' doesn't mean exactly what I thought it did.

Re 23

fisbangwollop

Thanks for the offer, I'll take you up on that beer ! I can omly imagine that down here (South) our otherwise charming, polite and skilled ATC at times become a little tense !

Or, perhaps I'm imagining it.

150 Driver.......after 42 years in the job I still realise every day is a school day....sadly there are folk around that think they know everything and are unwilling to listen to other views.

I hover on this forum at times and try my best to give my views as I see it from over the ATC fence, after all it's you GA guys that keep me in my job so I applaud you for continuing to speak to ATC when ever you can.

Going back to your original post you say you were operating IFR in VMC conditions, from that am I correct in guessing that was because you had filed an IFR flight plan......if so I would be interested in hearing your thinking on that when operating mainly in class G airspace.

From CAP 413:
CONTACT: Establish communications with... (your details have been passed).

A few times I've been told to "contact" another frequency but get the reply "pass your details" after first contact. Not a big problem as my workload was low at the time. Could have been a mistake from controller - he was busier than me and we all have slight hiccups now and then!

Another option could have been to request an earlier change of frequency to your next unit. Something like "G-CD requesting change to XXX radar 123.45 to arrange zone transit".

Fisbang, to clarify on this occasion I was flying IFR in IMC not VMC

That said, when flying cross country and where controlled airspace allows (i.e. I don't look for zone clearance for the hell of it) I do prefer to fly IFR even in VMC

152.....ah sorry misread your original post, didn't see the IMC bit I am sure it said VFR, must be a senior moment!!
Anyway no problems with looking for a crossing of class D, you don't need to be IFR to do that, VFR is OK if met conditions permit. See chart below.

I quite often set my customers up for crossing Edinburgh's class D by passing Edinburgh ATC the details however after transferring the aircraft to Edinburgh they still need to recieve that crossing clearance from Edinburgh so on initial contact if told to standby they should ensure they remain clear of CAS until receiving that clearance. If your ever north of the border give me a shout and I'll gladly organise a visit to out ATC centre.:cool:
https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/200890...ficationV3.pdf

Capt K....No problem....and Im sure your imagination is fine ;)

150 Driver - Everyone else has forgotten about this so far on here. But why didn't you file an IFR flight plan and remain inside controlled airspace? Did your instructor forget?

You're flying IFR in IMC. Don't weave around in uncontrolled airspace unless you really have to or you'll just be treated like other VFR traffic where you get a service if they have spare capacity to work you and you're left picking up ice and flying lower with high workload and risk of hitting terrain and obstacles.

File an IFR flight plan inside controlled airspace instead. ATC works with you the whole way. From their core capacity. Not their spare capacity. After filing you will be able to obtain a whole route clearance to your destination! Incredibly nice, easy and seamless, and you can fly for hundreds of miles like this along the airway system.

I'm guessing that:

He didn't want to double his track miles by going out of his way to find CAS

It was impractical/impossible for his aircraft to climb to the base levels of most CAS in the UK airways system.

His aircraft wasn't equiped for IFR flight in Class A airspace.

He was flying IFR with an IMC rating, not an IR, so couldnt fly in class 'A' airspace.

Aside from those things, i've no idea why he wasn't on an IFR Flight Plan inside CAS. :rolleyes:


MJ:ok:

Having an IFR flight plan means absolutely nothing once you go into class G. Once you leave controlled airspace you are on your own until someone clears you back into controlled.

Commercially we handle it by.

1. Get speaking to the next controller on box 2 5-10 mins before you get anywhere near the controlled airspace.

2. Dump who every your getting a service from when you want to and don't be bullied into staying with them. Its class G ignore their bleating if they want to keep you and be a Captain.

3. Have a escape route ie never put your aircraft somewhere that you can't escape without busting airspace. Be very careful choosing left or right to turn away.

Personally I don't take a service off these approach units anyway in class G because they are just a pain in the backside these days and don't realistically offer you any real safety benefit with the rubbish level of service that they are willing to provide. If they give you more its because it is for their benefit not yours so they can move you out the way of their own traffic.

So basically grow a pair and be a Captain control the situation, they are there to provide you a service not the other way round. If they are not helpful don't speak to them again and then they have the problem of trying to fit a 737 under a de-confliction service though multiple unknown traffic paints.

D.O.Now, now don't go dragging me into this, no need to get personal :ok:

Back on subject, the way I see it you're in uncontrolled airspace so you're on your own, any help you get from ATC is a bonus. As for getting anxious about approaching a zone while waiting on standby this is what you train for as a pilot, expect the unexpected, be the boss and take charge of the situation by perhaps starting an ad hoc hold. I do it all the time when i bump up against CAS that has snuck up on me earlier than i thought it would and am told to keep clear. As MJ says be careful which way you turn to circle, I've had a few bollockings for going the wrong way. You can normally tell when you have turned the wrong way as the second "remain clear of controlled airspace" call normally has a bit more of an authoritarian tone.

Mach Jump, correct on every point.

If I am on IFR an G and ATC is putting me on hold right before a class D, I tune COM2 to the tower freq of the D space and talk to them while standing by on COM1. Same I do at these allover popping up TMA/TMZ zones, when I am unsure about possible traffic conflicts - COM1 on ATC, COM2 on local tower.