At least you read it. It supports my case simply by pointing out (with the available data) that LSA are more susceptible to R-LOC and cross-wind related incidents than regular GA airplanes. I was previously told that this was complete "tosh", yet there is some evidence to support it. Perhaps I was trying to make the point to people who have better insight and/or data...

I don't think this is a case of one aircraft type being safer than another, it is all down to the pilot, attitude of mind, the go-nogo decision etc. There are times when the forecast at Leuchars military says "No significant weather". Wind 300deg 25knots. My runway is 240deg & in my 600kg bugsmasher with it's 12knot demonstrated crosswind thing, that is not a "Nosig" situation!!The CAA has decreed that microlights are safe enough for them to allow them to fly at the discretion of the pilot. Fixed wing GA group A the same. You learn what not to do with each type. The boundaries may be different for each type & may be more easily crossed. But that is not the fault of the aircraft.

eyesup,

The JFDI was meant as go flying (safely). You're writing stuff in smart-arsy way bit - that's the vibe I'm getting. Just FYI.

I tell you one 'story'. I had one guy staying in housing (this is USA in 2012) who drove 2000 miles in his car across States to Oregon to 'continue' learning to fly a helicopter. He stopped/was put off by one of his instructors getting killed on R44 ferry from Califofrnia, two guys, one 'building time' and more junior. There was some mechanical crankshaft malfunction, but also they pilots didn't enter autorotation in time/correctly.

He kept on and on voicing his concerns blah blah blah. He then flew once with friendly and semi-experienced heli instructor, packed up and left. He thought he wants to et back, but obviously had some mental issues/block/whatever. Instructor also concluded that he's not meant to be a pilot and for his training received etc, he had some weird statements etc.

Sure, training and teaching little R22 helicopters is way more dangerous, one doesn't need stats to know. Design not ideal, handling that can break it up inflight, flying low level, doing maneuvres that prang it easily, list goes on.

Out of my 700 hrs in the air, I felt safest in glider. I'm rotorhead and have power fixed wing time/ratings, but there's difference. If you want to go ahead with TMG, fine. You'll learn to land it power on, power off. More rounded 'emergency training' than 'GA Cessnas', although that depends on country/school how much really useful power off glide aproaches etc are done to the ground, proper spin in/out and avoidance.

LOC, RLOC etc. Yes, as someone mentioned, accident as in pranging the ship, on landing/flaring/groundlooping, seldom results in fatal/serious injury. Yes, gettng too slow on full flap setting, bleeding off airspeed in low level turn/too tight/too much rudder pullin back on stick etc, that can kill. So does mostly running out of fuel, LOC in IMC flying VFR, CFIT and the likes. Flying day VFR on nice day, keeping lookout, usual stuff, pretty safe stats speaking.

Nitpicking and sayin DA20 or DA40 is safer than Cessna, hmm. One can find stats to fit own 'agenda' or desired outcome. Yes, they're great looking, glide well etc. If they were as common as C152, C172 and Pa28, then the amount of stupid crashes and fatalities would skyrocket. As well as the amount of Diamonds flown for personal use/in training.

Glide ratio shouldn't be likened to low stalling speed as for survivability of field landing losing engine power. It depends on the L/D polar. Some aircraft have best L/D at higher speeds. If you fly little airplane, fly high enough to have better options of landing spots/reachin them below. R22 heli has about 3:1 ratio in autorotation. If flying over built up area or without big empty chunks of land, I'd rather land heli (preferably not R22, though) than SEP 3axis microlight, GA etc.

Your airline pilot family members probably did not touch too wide variety of GA aircraft. Did their training in Piper or cessna, then went to fly big stuff very likely. There's also big difference between two stroke oldie Rotax trike powered hangglider and Europa, Dynamic etc. Early history of microlights (engine reliability) and dragginess and RoD at power idle as well as being pretty light, have not made for good stats.
Remember, most of the accidents in GA airplanes is on private ops, often flow by owners, which is where wrong ADM, not keeping emergency trainign skills good enough etc, more likely than other areas of aviation.

To conclude, these words above rang the bell. Drawing from my recent experience as R22 instructor, one 40yo 'student' knocking off some time in US, was uneasy in fairly mild turbulence flying in one gorge in Oregon. Forecast was great for that otherwise quite windy destination, very scenic, so we went. He decided not to hand-fly and wanted to turn back purely due to mild turbulence, as he did his training last winter in England. I was not concerned, let him know in easygoing way that we're not gonna fall out of skies etc. Anyway, I did the autopilot for a while. We landed, enjoyed the view, lunch at airport diner, refuelled, flew back.

On way back, I was again getting bit tired of flying over river out of gliding range (poor ratio in autorotation) to river shore/highway. I suggested flying either higher or closer laterally. NO NO NO was the reply. Not anywhere closer to the ragged steep hills giving off mechanical turbulence. Nor he'd climb higher as best compromise between avoiding turbulence and not having to ditch in water when one can land somewhere to walk from.

He then said that he doesn't want to get to low G situation (serious turbulence can upset the heli and cause inflight breakup, limited recovery input situation could happen, but unlikely). I already stressed earlier that I have been flying in worse and that level is acceptable/safe. This focus on not getting to low G situation completely disregarding/downplaying possible engine/powertrain failure and benefit of being within gliding range of suitable area. Well, better than ditching in middle of Columbia river at least.

eyesup,

For someone who started off painting a picture of "I'm naive and looking for advice", you've posted some pretty knowledgable stuff since then.

One could be forgiven for suggesting that you're stirring up trouble.

I've been flying for a while. I have never heard of "LOC = Loss of Control. A well documented risk with LSA from base to finals and on finals".
G-LoC yes, LOC.no. Ditto RLOC.
Oh, and for the puposes of accuracy, LSA is a US definition, and does not even exist in Europe. The MAUW is 1,320lbs, whcih is 599kg. It is slightly higher for amphibians.
The 472.5kg limit is for German ULAs that are fitted with a BRS - otherwise its 450kg.
You're not only talking rubbish - its not even well-informed rubbish.
Personally I think you're a Troll. However, on the off-chance that you're not I can solve your dilemma. You have exactly the wrong attitude to be a Sport Aviator. Save your money and everyone else's time and stay indoors. That should be safe.

Perhaps I've just done a little more homework than you have.

I see. Thank you for that gem. I take from your statement that my desire to understand and as best as possible mitigate the risks involved, is deemed the wrong attitude. Indeed, then perhaps I would rather not be a sport aviator, but a safe and responsible one instead.

I have no intention of stirring up trouble, and I am certainly not a troll. I am simply looking for credible advice. To this end, the "JFDI" responses reinforce my view that many pilots out there simply do not understand some of the risks involved, and are frustrated when there is someone who challenges their own long-held misconceptions. So, I understand I'm hitting a few nerves, and the emotional responses are to be expected.

I will take that as a compliment, thank you. I am simply trying to understand the risks involved as best I can, and it is my hope to connect to people who have done the same

Martin, the JFDI was hardly meant politely. It's a pity that at least trying to be well informed and cite credible examples comes off as smart-arsy, but point taken. Your reply is on the whole very helpful, thank you.

You might want to start 'your' homework by clarifying exactly what you think an LSA is. You've pontificated at some length about them yet (as I clearly demonstrated but you choose to ignore) you don't even know what an LSA is.
As for mitigating risk it was John Donne who wrote that " A ship in harbour is safe. But that is not what ships are for." Flying an aeroplane entails risk. This may not have ocurred to you, but you can be thousands of feet in the air and travelling possibly hundreds of miles an hour. Flying by definition has an element of risk. That's actually why many pilots fly aerobatics,warbirds or go cross-country in sailplanes. As I said (and I mean this honestly) just do something else. You strike me as the kind of under-confident person that does have accidents, and then blames (and sues) everyone else while taking no responsibility.

Perhaps now is a good time to come back to the opening point?

"Love flying, not keen on dying."

I think few us are keen on dying - yet all of us are going to. Better do what you love to do while there's time left.

You may have missed my earlier post where I offered a link to what I understand LSA to be, in which it clearly mentioned variations by country/region. Here it is again :

Light-sport aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seems pretty decent insight to me

Nope, on the contrary, I assume full responsibility for all my actions and decisions, and therefore seek to make both as qualified as possible. That will be the basis for my confidence. I understand this approach does not appeal to everyone though, and there are some to whom either ignorance or denial (or both) are far more palatable.

When you start quoting Wiki as your primary reference source I'm afraid you really do have no credability left.
I don't suppose you've got a link to LOC and RLOC by any chance? And have ANY of the actual aviators out there ever heard of LOC and RLOC?

GLOC yes, LOC or RLOC, nope never come across those untill reading this thread

OP, I believe you are being too hard on the LSA scene, in that the comparisons of accident stats are not always comparing like with like. I have been flying for about 30 yrs as a PPL and enjoy both 'heavy' GA aircraft and LSAs. If I take my current P2002 JF puddle jumper - which is a certified version of an LSA-class aircraft - as an example, I would be very hard pressed to view it as a more dangerous aircraft than the better-known GA models. Quite the contrary, in fact. Low stall speeds, 22 kt demonstrated crosswind, docile but nice handling etc.

In several countries, I see the published stats do not do any sort of selection for pilot hours, training, and so on. So you'll see LSA stats which include extremely new pilots, trained to a minimum local recreational aviation standard, mixed with GA stats. As several other posters have noted, it's all about the pilot. If you normalize for that element, I'd be surprised if the new breed of LSAs look significantly worse than Cessnas, Pipers etc.

Finally, I just observe that I have known several intelligent people, who obtained PPLs without too much difficulty, who have left flying behind because of an inability to reconcile risks. Most often this has happened just after they obtained a licence, which I think is a pity. While respecting their decisions, I suspect that a bit of hard-core GA flying on their own or with others would have helped to build confidence. There's never any cause for complacency on any flight in any aeroplane but these days I observe many more risks to my life and limb than a couple of hours a week of recreational flying.

when I first saw "LOC" in this thread, I thought of LOCALIZER (part of the instrument landing system )>


there are many examples of multiple use abbreviations, so I suggest that to any poster, write the full expression out, like, I've read about LOSS OF CONTROL (henceforth LOC).

or I could say, what does: TR stand for?

thrust reverser

transformer rectifier

type rating.


so, lets all not panic, and WIKIPEDIA, for whatever you think, is not a bad, easy resource, often pointing to actual regulations, or other more highly held sources.


Merry Christmas to all.

Right, so all of that is at odds with your original post about anxiety and shaking then. Well done for completely missing out all of the pertinent details initially.

Must try harder.

So you come to ask for advice and when you get it and it disagrees with your opinion you rubbish it. I notice that you've had the same advice here and on Flyer, and still you think it is because the people most experienced in the field are more ignorant than you. So what happens when someone is advising you on the things to do and to avoid when you are joining the circuit? Or how to set up your approach in a crosswind? Believe me, we don't only 'know' the risks, we experience them first hand every time we fly P1, and most of us are very chastened and humbled by them - regularly

To become a safe and successful pilot, you need to learn to take advice from those who know more than you - I've learned a lot from the generosity of other pilots and I'm grateful to them for that. Could you?

What did you expect from these threads? That we would give you a model of TMG that is guaranteed not to crash? That was never going to happen. Everytime we get into our aircraft we risk our lives, but we will have done the same when we got into our cars to drive to the airfield, or to drive to work, or to take our children to school. All the rest really is trolling. We aren't going to persuade you that flying is ultra safe and you aren't going to persuade us that our hobby is wild, reckless and foolish.

Like I said, I don't think any minds are going to be changed on either side, so lets leave it there

LORD SPANDEX MASHER

observing symptoms is only the start of the process of finding out what is wrong.

you still have that chip...let me know if you want someone to knock it off.

I'd say your symptoms do merit checking into diabetes.

or perhaps your spandex is too tight somewhere.

so glad I am not you

Lord Spandex Masher, a copy of a post from elsewhere on the forumIt's our old friend SSG posting under about his 100th identity.

Indeed, I have come here for advice, which for the most part, I have received. I am just astounded that some responses (e.g "JFDI") seem to have no credible basis at all. An emotional response because the research I have done dares to suggest that certain aircraft types could be deemed, under certain conditions, less safe than others.

Neither of which were at any point intended to be the case.

Yes, let's do that. To each their own