Denham crash yesterday 24 October
 

Any news?...

Alert as light aircraft comes down in field (From Bucks Free Press)
steve

That looks like the twin comanche that lives in the hangar next to TPC...

Think it's a Seneca rather than a Twin Com.

Good to see he was ok, I was just by the tower and saw the whole thing!

Strangely a plane came down in Denham Australia couple days ago, emergency landing on the road close to airport clipped a vehicle , no injuries

So what happened?

On the airfield, watching proceedings.
Aircraft in question carries out a go-around, followed by what looked like a low level circuit, then touched down fairly deep into runway. Little sign of braking and went through hedges at 24 threshold end, crossing road and ended up with the rather startled horses in the adjacent field.
Airfield fire tenders on site very quickly and both crew out and walking around, apparently ok. No obvious fire, but a very bent aircraft with port wing severed outside of engine. Fortunate escape for both aircraft crew and passengers in cars passing down road just before the accident.
About 15 minutes later two fire brigade appliances arrive, followed by two ambulances, one police car and Helimed!

Denham is pretty tight with a Seneca. I'm the first guy to take twins into short strips for utility, so I'm not blaming this gentleman at all. This is well within it's capabilities. You just need to plant it early, can't afford to be too much off speed or have a rwy too wet and/or brakes not in great shape. Glad everyone is OK - airplanes can always be replaced.

As a side note, it bugs the living daylights out of me that if I ever get my plane over to Europe for that summer vacation flying I dreamt about doing, I can't get into Denham, Elstree or pretty much anywhere else with this new one. I'm confined to Biggin Hill and the boringness of all that.

The pilot called out what sounded like two(!) rough running engines and flew a low circuit, coming in with what looked like a lot of energy. Main thing is that everyone was ok.

It's a shame that people seem to rush getting the aircraft on the ground following an engine failure. The airlines teach akin it slowly.

I have flown twins that take a long time to climb on one engine, but I think that you are much better off taking your time.

In a Seneca (I) on one engine, one has little choice but to take some time to climb....

If both engines weren't well, then time possibly wouldn't be around long to take.

In this incident, seeing as no one knows yet what actually caused the problem, it's difficult to comment as to whether the crew were hasty in their decisions.

It definitely wasn't that one!

Jamie

Agreed, especially if the strip is marginal you need time to get it set up. If the circuit was low it was probably out of the pilot's control, if the RoC was low. However a short final with engine problems it is not good, if indeed that was the case.

Happy no one was hurt.

There is always Heathrow. Nice long runway there, if you don't mind being on the news and spending a week filling out paperwork. :}

I don't know why they bother replacing that fence at Denham. It isn't a particularly difficult runway but it appears to attract more than its fair share of high energy landings.

Adam

I used to Fly a Seneca Five twin into Denham (was almost its second home)
The runway is plenty long enough for a Seneca.
In fact I know of a couple of Citations which have been there (not me :)

it looks quite narrow from the air and with the lakes and trees off the one end can temp a pilot to land long.

This does sound like and element of panic! Both engines running rough! Oh my God i have to get it on the ground quick, brains fly out the window and aircraft flies down the runway too fast to late straight off the runway and through the fence.

really pleased no one was hurt

I am pleased that nobody is hurt.

I have taken the C421 in and out of Elstree and Denham, with no issues.

Adam, if you do bring your machine over, I will happily take it in/out both
airfields with you.

I think if I was presented with a high energy aeroplane with a problem overhead Denham, and had a little time in hand, I'd probably declare an emergency and go to Northolt with better crash facilities and much more runway.

But to be fair to whoever was flying this particular Piper, it appears there was no significant injury, and hardware is insured and can be replaced. So whatever they may have done wrong, it wasn't that wrong.

G

F900

I hope you had a thimbleful of fuel in each tank? was it the Bravo?

I took a Citation 500 into Thruxton once but minimal fuel and the owner soon realised he could not really operate from there and listened to me :ok:
Two weeks later I took it back out.

Also remember landing the Seneca at Denham with 40 KTS steady 90 degree crosswind 20 minutes later the airport closed under heavy snow as was the M25.
Never really intended to land but purely one touch and go but she landed :ok: albeit the absolute limit on that aircraft.

Pace

United Biscuits KingAir 200 G-HLUB was based there for many years sans problem.

Lets just be happy no-one died or worse was seriously injured.

SGC

My Seneca experience is limited. I seem to recall they need about 2000ft roughly for takeoff? The Aerostar into Elstree is out of the question, Denham is a possibility if very lightly loaded and with newly polished cojones. With the old one I could have easily gone into Damyns Hall.

TAKEOFF DISTANCE
Ground Roll: 1 143 ft
Total Over 50 ft Obstacle: 1 707 ft
LANDING DISTANCE
Ground Roll: 1 400 ft
Total Over 50 ft Obstacle: 2 180 ft

Adam these are the approx figures for the Five at Grosse weight! Less than Grosse the figures will be better I do not have access to the manual anymore :(
i used to operate the Seneca and a Baron 55 into 550 meters albeit with very rough runoff areas both ends but never ran off the smooth:)
the Seneca 2 had even shorter takeoff

I believe Denham is approx 2300 feet long

agreed the Aerostar is famed for needing quite a bit of runway and you would not want to go out at gross weight! Do you have the manual figures?

Pace

Yes, to clear 50ft at SL, STD, 5000lbs, no wind, POH gives: 1900ft and roughly 1500ft ground roll. Not very much margin.

My company operated up to 11 Aerostar 600 and 601's as "birddogs" (ie aircontrol/lead planes for aerial firefighting ops). The company SOP was no operations into airports shorter than 3000 feet under any circumstances.

I have a bit of time in the 601P and found it even more of a runway hog than the lighter unpressurized versions. I also think the takeoff data charts are a complete fantasy of the marketing department and I have never been able to achieve anything close to the book numbers.

If not burning, much better to get some altitude -- then consider options while the heart rate and adrenalin level are getting back to normal.

A few months ago, a local glider pilot had a side opening canopy come unlatched early on tow. He released at 500' and attempted a no spoiler landing on a downslope runway while holding the canopy closed. He had to groundloop to avoid the fence and wrote off the glider.

Had he continued the tow to 2000' he could have chosen an upslope field. There were standing hay crops that would have prevented him hitting a fence.

Not much relevance to a twin, except that altitude gives you options, including discussing them on the radio, and think time.

Bottom Line: An immediate hurried landing is much less likely to succeed than one that's planned to an adequate runway or field.

BPF - I would tend to agree with you. The book numbers feel very optimistic. Maybe when she comes back with her newly overhauled engines will I see closer to these numbers.

Anyone recall an incident at Denham a good couple of decades ago concerning a Learjet or a Citation which tangled slightly with the hedge/fence either on approach or during a go around?

Hi jets are far more critical to things like temp and weight to determine their takeoff landing distances! Hence why going off the figures in the manual is vital and not a manufacturers marketing document ;)
Even in pistons how do you get your high altitude per cent power range figures from if the manufacturers speed are way off?

If your aircraft has almost time expired engines, is bug ridden or covered in dents add a percentage to cover or know your aircraft

Takeoff in a jet!! all you can do is stand on The brakes hit max N1 release the brakes and wait for VR!

If your heavy or it's hot that can take forever and the takeoff distance can vary considerably from light and cold!

There are so many other considerations is the runway wet ? How much headwind etc the manual is vital!

I believe a Citation operated out of Elstree but IMO that was crazy and it did crash! Not heard of the Denham overrun

Pace

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...YQrL7kPQio4Ajg :)

JetBlu

Looking at that list some very tasty machinery and loads of AeroStars have been there even though the runway is shorter than Denham at 650 M
Too me that Highlights the fact that a number of considerations need to be taken into account when using length limited runways.
Is the runway wet or dry!
how much standing water or ice?
what is the wind doing?
What is your loading like?
what is the temp like (30 degree in summer?)
In the event of an engine or other problem on takeoff can you stop or are you playing Russian Roulette?

As stated I have taken a Citation into Thruxton but with minimal fuel and no PAX so I stress the importance of checking the manual for each situation

Pace

Pace

Agreed. All of those factors need to be considered, but my point was I have done it, and it can be done.

I would also strongly recommend using the POH in association with personal experience.

It's a Seneca, Twinkies don't have nose lockers!

Yes it's a Seneca ; ) I have had an engine vibration a few times in the 3000 hrs I had in them and worse! One observation is an engine vibration can appear to be from both when it's from one and you do need to get up to a safe altitude and work out what's happening and from which engine!
This guy appears to have thought oh my God both engined are vibrating I have to get it down before they both stop!
Our of control approach! Land at all costs with the inevitable off the end if the runway oh well : ( thankful no one was hurt

Act in haste repent in leisure springs to mind

Pace

Although Elstree is officially shorter than Denham some would consider it effectively much longer. For take off on 26 the based King Air, the PC12s and regular Renaissance Commander visitor all use the "pan" which gives at least an extra 100 metres of paved (unlicensed of course), although the upslope is significant. At the other end there is a further 170 metres paved (again unlicensed and rough at the edges) with substantial grass run off area.

Most problems arise when 08 is in use for all the usual reasons.

Aerostars are rare but do sometimes visit.

Not saying these are my views, just the reality of what does happen there.

Could you be thinking of this?

I know Elstree well the upslope is quite steep on 26 ok for takeoff other than the initial steep start so slow acceleration but because of the trees difficult to use on landing! Also remember on 26 the rest of the runway is uphill albeit only slightly compared to the steep unlicensed bit!
So overall your takeoff distance will not meet level book figures!
On the 08 departure the steep unlicensed but will be near useless but you will get a downslope on the rest if the runway with a wall if trees in front of you

Pace

Dependent upon conditions, it is better going out on 08 and in on 26, using ALL of the available asphalt. The C421 would very nearly eat it.

The only Lear over run at Northolt I can think about is here.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...0Aqf_grTvNJ_Jg

So the Blenheim overrun at Denham has faded from the Forum's memory?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...20%2011-87.pdf

SGC

yes i remember that. accident waiting to happen.

Not the Lear at Northolt, nor the Citation at Fairoaks - remember both of these and they are both much more recent. Pretty certain the Denham Citation/Lear would probably have been the early 1980s - yikes, three decades ago. Damage if any was minimal, I'd think.

SGC, not from mine... :(