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-   -   modes S transponder (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/522751-modes-s-transponder.html)

riverrock83 9th Sep 2013 11:57


Originally Posted by rans6andrew (Post 8038755)
Quote:
I realise that every geek in the south of the country will be tracking your every move and the air traffic folk will know who you are if you bust anyone's zone.

The "every geek tracking you" thing only works if you have a (certified) GPS device linked into the transponder. When the GPS is linked in, your location is output through ADS-B, which anyone (including TCAS type systems) can pick up.
Since you are talking about a microlight, you aren't going to have this, so all they will get (using their own equipment) is your identifier (so they know you are within transponder range).

I doubt that Nats publish their secondary radar derived data to all and sundry (otherwise airports wouldn't pay huge fees to get access to it). I don't think I can see any GA on ADS-B flight data | NATS (although there are some higher end GA aircraft with hooked up certified GPSs and ADS-B out).

That linked LAST device is interesting - but the CAA / EASA will need to change the regs unless the GPS device contained in it is certified (not sure what that entails). I believe the last version that someone tried to release didn't get through the various hurdles. Fingers crossed though... Our Mode C transponder doesn't want to talk to an altitude encoder at the moment so is really Mode A. Hasn't caused us any airspace issues yet, but its on the list to be "looked at". If a cheap Mode S comes along we will probably jump!

riverrock83 9th Sep 2013 12:08

That L.A.S.T product - I've just found a reference from 2006 to it and confirmed that the previously linked PDF is dated 2006. Reference here: Transponders for GA, a pain or a gain? « The Digital Aviator

Its maybe the one I'd heard about that didn't go anywhere / had problems?

There is also no reference to it on the named company's website.

Does anyone know anything from more recently?

Rod1 9th Sep 2013 13:20

"Does anyone know anything from more recently? "

The project was abandoned when flight testing showed the reduced power was not up to the job, reducing the detection range way below requirements. Long time ago now but was covered in one of the Mode S consultation meetings.

Rod1

riverrock83 9th Sep 2013 14:59


Originally Posted by Rod1 (Post 8039039)
"Does anyone know anything from more recently? "

The project was abandoned when flight testing showed the reduced power was not up to the job, reducing the detection range way below requirements. Long time ago now but was covered in one of the Mode S consultation meetings.

Rod1

Thanks Rod1. I thought I'd remembered something like that from a previous discussion.

RatherBeFlying 10th Sep 2013 02:48

For a Mode S box like the Trig, all you need for ADS-B is a super fancy certified GPS box that costs a whole bunch more than the Trig.

The set up of ADS-B include things like wingspan and antenna location so aircraft on parallel taxiways won't cross wingtips.

Is that level of certification needed for GA away from major airport taxiways? Your off the shelf GPS will do quite nicely in the air and give the big guys sufficient warning to stay well clear of you. Will IAOPA get the ear of the regulators on this one -- stay tuned. More likely the electronics people will develop an ADS-B box at a GA affordable price before the regulators come around.

The PowerFlarm gives very good information on ADS-B; so, you do have timely information to get out of their way.

Rod1 10th Sep 2013 07:55

I ran a test for the LAA on ADS-B out using a Trig mode s and an uncertified GPS. We used a PowerFlarm to detect this on another aircraft. I had to get permission for the CAA to run the test and it had to follow strict guidelines. The ADS-B test was a big success. I understand the rules on ADS-B may be relaxed very soon thanks to pressure form a number of organisations. If the changes come in and you have a Mode S transponder that supports ES (almost no Garmin units in the UK will do this but just about everything else will) then on a permit machine you will be able to connect the RS232 cable and “go”! It will be more complex and expensive on C of A as you will have to get an avionic engineer to do the work and probably will still have to pay a mod fee.

Rod1

fisbangwollop 10th Sep 2013 09:29

Chevron

Both London and Scottish Info are operated by FISOs not controllers, and hence they are simply not licensed to provide radar services.
Correct. What both London and Scottish info sectors do have is what we refer to as a FID "Flight Information Display". OK it's a radar but cannot be used as that. What it is designed to do is assist the FISO'S in hopefully preventing any Airspace infringements from aircraft receiving a basic service from those units.

Let's assume an aircraft advises me he is routing from Oban to Cumbernauld.....at no time will that aircraft ever be identified by me but from the data the aircraft has passed me I notice one of my conspiquety 7401 squawk heading into the Glasgow control zone despite the aircraft telling me he intends to avoid it. My actions would be to pass the details to Glasgow, then transfer the aircraft to Glasgow to let the Glasgow controller pass information to the pilot to either turn him away from their control zone or give him a clearance to enter.

As FISO'S as Chevron said we are not licenced to use the Radar as such so cannot give instructions ......:cool:

rans6andrew 10th Sep 2013 10:34

you don't need to monitor and build up a pattern of movements to guess that I am unlikely to be in two places at once. The time taken to land, taxi, shutdown, tidy aircraft, put it away, wash hands, make coffee, fill in logbooks, chill a bit, pack car and drive home is more than long enough to turn a house over and scarper.

Rans6....

riverrock83 10th Sep 2013 14:23


Originally Posted by Rod1 (Post 8040523)
I ran a test for the LAA on ADS-B out using a Trig mode s and an uncertified GPS. We used a PowerFlarm to detect this on another aircraft. I had to get permission for the CAA to run the test and it had to follow strict guidelines. The ADS-B test was a big success. I understand the rules on ADS-B may be relaxed very soon thanks to pressure form a number of organisations. If the changes come in and you have a Mode S transponder that supports ES (almost no Garmin units in the UK will do this but just about everything else will) then on a permit machine you will be able to connect the RS232 cable and “go”! It will be more complex and expensive on C of A as you will have to get an avionic engineer to do the work and probably will still have to pay a mod fee.

Rod1

Sounds good.
What this might also do, is allow Trig (or someone else) to add a GPS chip directly into the transponder, so it can all be done on one unit. Might need programmed per aircraft to allow entry of identifiers, or there would be a colossal number of dip switches to fiddle with...

RatherBeFlying 10th Sep 2013 17:25

The LAA experiments sound very interesting. My bureaucracy pessimism has taken a minor hit that will turn out major if us GA folks can use a less fancy GPS unit.


What this might also do, is allow Trig (or someone else) to add a GPS chip directly into the transponder, so it can all be done on one unit. Might need programmed per aircrWhat this might also do, is allow Trig (or someone else) to add a GPS chip directly into the transponder, so it can all be done on one unit. Might need programmed per aircraft to allow entry of identifiers, or there would be a colossal number of dip switches to fiddle with...
I suspect Trig has decided to leave the GPS finagling to others in favor of putting out quite a nice unit today.

No dip switches in the Trig -- it's all nicely done with menus on the unit.

trevs99uk 10th Sep 2013 23:07

If anybody goes on the internet and looks at Flight Radar 24 occasionally now you can see the odd light aircraft popup..

trevs99uk 11th Sep 2013 01:07

Ref the LAST device..

As i understand it the problem with the LAST device was that due to low power output (being Battery powered) the signal would only go out a short distance (approx 30 miles) where as the rules that define what a transponder is are really aimed at the Commercial airliner world which requires the signal to go out hundreds of miles. And at the time the CAA therefore would not certificate it, but things have now changed and certification is controlled by EASA...

There was mentions at the Friedrichschafen event earlier this year that a UK manufacturer was going to release a certified handheld device by the end of the year for around £500.00 and that its development was being sponsored by NATS...

To do this there was mentions that Eurocontrol were going to change the rules so a lower powered device for general aviation would be allowed.

ShyTorque 11th Sep 2013 05:07


conspiquety
Never mind Mode S transponders, what a cracking word that one is! :D

I always wondered how those north of the border would spell conspicuity! :ok:


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