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Richard:
He had a similar condescending nature about him as well by all accounts There are posters on here defending the chap in question. |
Fair comment :ok: edited accordingly.
One sometimes finds that condescending people are defended by similar traits to ones own nature. Off course, I may be proven wrong with any such relationship. |
Admonishment over R/T
Regardless of the personal issues and the posturing:
Read CHIRP 54 (GA) A Contested Departure and take on board the CHIRP comments. In my view this is one of the most valuable pieces of CHIRP feedback in recent years. Have your arguments about the rights and wrongs in private. Popham has been a great GA airfield as long as I've been flying and is bigger than any individual. Fly safe scrambled |
Oscar Zulu I read what you say. I've also just read a very balanced email from the person you've accused of being out of order. He's given a very fair and balanced account of what happened. I will not disclose his account of the events, as he plans to do so himself. All I'd say is, when you're in a hole..... You might want to fill in a few of the gaps in the story..... I find these 'I know something that you don't know and I'm not telling' posts a tad pathetic. If OZ's complaint is far out let the A/G bloke tell us so we can make our own minds up. Cusco:rolleyes: |
OK so when/where will we read this account? I find these 'I know something that you don't know and I'm not telling' posts a tad pathetic. If OZ's complaint is far out let the A/G bloke tell us so we can make our own minds up. 1. Two other aircraft in the circuit confirmed he hadn't called at all prior to calling Base. 2. He didn't have PPR (which isn't actually required, but why lie about it?). 3. His attitude was rather poor (mentioned by another pilot) and he carved a tight Base leg with no warning, thereby cutting up other aircraft. 4. He only used the last two letters of his call sign, even on first (Base) contact. 5. He said he'd called at Chilbolton but no other aircraft had heard that at all, hence he was asked if his radio was functioning. Let's not forget, this guy works the radio for many events at Popham each year and has done for donkey's years. The big micro-rally in May has many hundreds of visitors and thousands of radio transmissions. How often have we heard complaints about Popham's radio system??? Exactly..... :rolleyes: |
Mono, Regardless of who is right or wrong. Do you agree that a bollocking was administered over the radio? If so, that is the unforgiveable bit, regardless of any wrong doing on the part of anyone.
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Crash,
On the basis that most of what OZ has accused is apparently false, I don't personally believe that a "bollocking" was indeed administered over the radio. Maybe some stern words were transmitted (which, according to the email were for the benefit of the person he cut up), but with what he did, he deserved it. Sorry. |
I am not convinced we are getting the full story here. We have a so-called telling off on air with someone that joined base leg after an initial information call. On air telling offs - if that is what happened - are not acceptable but also, not yet at least, a hanging offence.
We have the suggestion that someone may, or may not, have been cut up in the circuit but we are only hearing this was not a problem from one side. I can see a lot of hot air being blustered by someone that may well have made a small mistake but is now making a lot of noise that is disproportionate, and sometimes this is a clear sign that someone cannot accept being wrong. If you were told off on air then that is not acceptable (if that is actually what happened rather than a simple comment about 'where did you come from' being taken the wrong way.) You tried to take this up with the airfield manager who was not there. However, you did not write to him, telephone him or email him but instead decided to go public, on a forum that has WAY more listeners than the traffic at Popham, to not only call the radio operator names but also to suggest to people should avoid the airfield. Do you not see that your actions are way more unacceptable than anything that happened at the weekend? You have had every opportunity to deal with this in a businesslike manner but have resorted instead to online insults and an attempt to damage the legitimate business of one of our remaining small airfields. I am afraid Sir that you have shown your colours. They are not impressive. I also sincerely hope that I do not come up against your 10,000 hour plus CAA RT examiner version of airmanship. You may think you are an excellent pilot but I think that may be part of the problem. Popham is a good place but it is not perfect. You sir, are not perfect either. |
Mono
OK, I wasn't there & if this sorry tale is in fact a bunch of lies as you are implying then I reverse my view. For an aparently high time pilot/RT examiner to make such remarks incorrectly should, I think, warrant serious investigation. |
& if this sorry tale is in fact a bunch of lies as you are implying I'm just saying two things: 1. Popham's radio has never historically been considered as offensive. 2. The OP has stated (publicly, (and rather curiously) before taking it up with the airfield) what appears to be rather embellished and incorrect facts about his experience, based on a series of well presented facts I have received in an email. As I have said, if anybody has issue with anything the OP has alleged, they are perfectly welcome to email Popham. I have no connection with the airfield other than being a loyal member. |
Mono
Likewise, "IF" the version of events are found to be exaggerated, my apologies will follow. Yours off course, in the interim will also be gratefully received. :ok: |
Richard
I don't think you eat junk food, and you're clearly highly educated. I'm sorry for suggesting you were otherwise!! :ok: |
Mono
I have been known to eat the occasional quarter pounder :ok: |
Richard, you appeared to swallow the original rant hook line and sinker. That may not be the case, but that is how it appeared.
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based on a series of well presented facts I have received in an email. You appear to be more involved in this affair than some of us to have received said email. You appear to know more than you are telling this public forum. I may be wrong & you may not be more involved. I may be wrong & you know no more than the rest of us. I retract the statement "Implying". I am sorry I expressed an opinion based on the OP. There are two (apparently) people involved in this affair, one of which deserves a firm kick up the arse. I now have no idea which one. I no longer care. |
FBS
Firstly, I did not swallow ;) Lets make that quite clear. From what was initially said, followed by what others actually went on to say, down to a point of identification (with no mention from the op) a picture was forming. I stepped in purely along the lines that if this radio operator was lambasting people over the airwaves, how would a newly qualified pilot react to this on final approach? It could have been an accident waiting to happen. I would have also stepped in if I was an aircraft on frequency and I heard Mono getting a b****ing for what ever reason. I still recall that guy at Elstree and indeed that Sunday afternoon in his little tower, uninvited. |
this radio operator was lambastering The word is "lambasting" |
OK Richard, accepted
Being a long time resident of Popham this story does not ring entirely true, as I stated in my first post (which was written while Monocock was replying so we crossed in the post) It is still a good airfield to visit. Let us not forget that. |
Er, you are quite right :ok:
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I have no opinion on the rights or wrongs of the OP or the radio guy, but wonder, if you are making an approach to land (with or without PPR) to a field with this type of comms coverage wouldn't the default (and safer) join be from the overhead regardless if preceding and/or local traffic are joining in other ways. Why would you join on base like the OP did, is it personal choice i.e. just however you fancy joining coz its uncontrolled or would the AG guy offer this join?
Never been to Popham and no idea where it is, just trying to figure out the correct procedure for this type of field and setup, if indeed there is such a thing. |
If there are other aircraft in the circuit then you were a **** to go straight onto base. Even if said traffic gave their positions to give you a mental picture of the situation , Unless you can see them take it with a pinch of salt, as one mans downwind is bloody miles away from someone elses! Oh and by the way, if you want REAL abuse on the radio/ground, go further west to He.....e(tarmac)!
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Monocock. You appear to be more involved in this affair than some of us to have received said email. You appear to know more than you are telling this public forum. I may be wrong & you know no more than the rest of us My email to the person on the radio was completely out of the blue for him and he didn't have to respond to it. But, he did, because he's perfectly reasonable as a person and had the OP been genuinely keen to proactively resolve the issue, he too could have emailed the person himself for a full briefing of what it was he did upon arrival that was wrong. |
Having popped into Popham (sorry) many times over the years, though not recently, I just assumed the OP was a Troll!
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I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk.
I was absolutely shocked. I completely agree that A/G radio is not the appropriate medium to issue b*****ings, regardless of the perceived faults of the person on the receiving end. Come on Popham! You used to be great, and now you're driving customers away. If you're unsure how your radio operators ought to behave, go to a club like White Waltham, and ask them to show you. They are polite and know when to let something slide and when to have a DISCREET word. Its that level of CUSTOMER SERVICE that keeps people coming back. |
I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk. D.O. |
I do not usually get involved with petty squabbles on these forums but as it has been brought to my attention I will give the Popham side of this saga. This is the only post you will get.
As the main radio operator I always make every effort to answer all aircraft fairly and promptly even when we are really busy. I fully agree that an A/G cannot “control” anything (even though Farnborough, Lasham, and Solent Radar still refer to us as ATC). I will attempt to deal with some FACTS for the initial posting. On Sunday 13th January Popham had steady traffic all day and the radio was in constant use. I had been working since 08:30 and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. There was no telephone PPR call from this pilot or he would have been told this. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft. There were two aircraft in the circuit that had called earlier some way to the north, a Pietenpol and a Sky Ranger (registrations available if you wish to ask). The first call from the aircraft in question was “OL base for 03” (N.B. no full call sign). I radioed the aircraft to see if I had perhaps missed an earlier call to get the full call sign and was then given it without question. The aircraft (now observed for the first time as a KitFox) then cut directly in front of the Pietenpol already on the correct final for R03. As I fly a Pietenpol myself I am aware that the P1 view from the back cockpit of a Pietenpol is limited on finals so I radioed that the KitFox had cut in and the Pietenpol replied that he could manage the approach and landed safely behind the KitFox. At no time was any “slanging off” done by myself to the KitFox on the radio. An A/G operator can make any calls they like in the interests of safety. The following conversation took place at the desk (NOT on the radio). When the pilot came to book in I asked him in a normal tone if he had a problem with his radio due to his sole short call on base leg. He replied that had had called at Chilbolton and as he received no reply had continued inbound. I pointed out in a normal tone that he had cut into the circuit in front of the Pietenpol whereupon he got quite aggressive and sarcastically asked if I was giving” Radar Vectors” as well. (Note: If I had been he would have been on a proper final like everyone else!). Whilst there is no basic problem with joining on a base leg, if he had not received a response from me at Chilbolton he should possibly have joined overhead and followed the other aircraft already in the circuit. He said he had seen the Pietenpol on finals but did not consider it a problem. I was then called “rude” and I said I would “agree to differ with him” and it was left at that. All the time this conversation was going on I was still working the radio. Speaking afterwards to both the Pietenpol pilot and the Sky Ranger pilots, they both stated that they had been monitoring the traffic from some way out and neither had heard any call from the KitFox until the base call. Only the KitFox pilot would know if he had actually made calls and received no answer. Quote: “A CAA R/T Examiner with just short of 10,000 hours in various disciplines” should really query the airmanship of making an incorrect radio call (only gave his short call sign) and joining short left base in front of an aircraft already on finals. The pilot was NEVER “Roasted” by me, simply initially queried about his radio possibly not functioning, and did not have to be so objectionable when checking in and then posting an exaggerated tale on these forums, trying to give Popham a bad name. I stand by my actions in these circumstances and welcome anyone to sit with me on the radio, listening to calls of extremely variable quality, at Popham when we are busy and see how a simple A/G operator has to manage a “Crystal Ball” to sometimes divine what is going on from the only “Tower” in England that is below the level of the runway! |
Popham is a delightful airfield with a/g and I have had nothing but friendliness and politeness from the radio (and everyone else) on the many occasions I have visited.
Some might say the original poster is a troublemaking troll. I couldn't possibly comment. |
I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk. The A/G operator only answered calls sporadically when I was joining, and after I'd landed I asked him where he wanted me to park. No answer. So I parked up near to the clubhouse, went into the building (expecting the usual friendly airfield welcome), and had to wait while the miserable s*d behind the desk was having a loud argument with someone on the phone. Then he hung up and started to give me a rollocking for parking too close to the building! He shut up when I pointed out some of the club aircraft were parked closer! When I left he ordered me to depart on the runway with trees on the end, rather than the other runway as I "wasn't familiar with the noise abatement procedures" even though I'm a qualified PPL and they don't look that difficult. Shame really because it seems like a nice airfield, just lets itself down slightly on the customer service front. |
Having just looked at the Popham website again, there is a A/G radio guy who is a fine musical legend :D
Some music while we await the statement. http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...P7TcKSHqZBqA8w |
From the man himself..
He's unable to get it to post for some reason so I'm doing it on his behalf. I do not usually get involved with petty squabbles on these forums bit as it has been brought to my attention I will give the Popham side of this saga. This is the only post you will get. As the main radio operator I always make every effort to answer all aircraft fairly and promptly even when we are really busy. I fully agree that an A/G cannot “control” anything (even though Farnborough, Lasham, and Solent Radar still refer to us as ATC). I will attempt to deal with some FACTS for the initial posting. On Sunday 13th January Popham had steady traffic all day and the radio was in constant use. I had been working since 08:30 and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. There was no telephone PPR call from this pilot or he would have been told this. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft. There were two aircraft in the circuit that had called earlier some way to the north, a Pietenpol and a Sky Ranger (registrations available if you wish to ask). The first call from the aircraft in question was “OL base for 03” (N.B. no full call sign). I radioed the aircraft to see if I had perhaps missed an earlier call to get the full call sign and was then given it without question. The aircraft (now observed for the first time as a KitFox) then cut directly in front of the Pietenpol already on the correct final for R03. As I fly a Pietenpol myself I am aware that the P1 view from the back cockpit of a Pietenpol is limited on finals so I radioed that the KitFox had cut in and the Pietenpol replied that he could manage the approach and landed safely behind the KitFox. At no time was any “slanging off” done by myself to the KitFox on the radio. An A/G operator can make any calls they like in the interests of safety. The following conversation took place at the desk (NOT on the radio). When the pilot came to book in I asked him in a normal tone if he had a problem with his radio due to his sole short call on base leg. He replied that had had called at Chilbolton and as he received no reply had continued inbound. I pointed out in a normal tone that he had cut into the circuit in front of the Pietenpol whereupon he got quite aggressive and sarcastically asked if I was giving” Radar Vectors” as well. (Note: If I had been he would have been on a proper final like everyone else!). Whilst there is no basic problem with joining on a base leg, if he had not received a response from me at Chilbolton he should possibly have joined overhead and followed the other aircraft already in the circuit. He said he had seen the Pietenpol on finals but did not consider it a problem. I was then called “rude” and I said I would “agree to differ with him” and it was left at that. All the time this conversation was going on I was still working the radio. Speaking afterwards to both the Pietenpol pilot and the Sky Ranger pilots, they both stated that they had been monitoring the traffic from some way out and neither had heard any call from the KitFox until the base call. Only the KitFox pilot would know if he had actually made calls and received no answer. Quote: “A CAA R/T Examiner with just short of 10,000 hours in various disciplines” should really query the airmanship of making an incorrect radio call (only gave his short call sign) and joining short left base in front of an aircraft already on finals. The pilot was NEVER “Roasted” by me, simply initially queried about his radio possibly not functioning, and did not have to be so objectionable when checking in and then posting an exaggerated tale on these forums, trying to give Popham a bad name. I stand by my actions in these circumstances and welcome anyone to sit with me on the radio, listening to calls of extremely variable quality, at Popham when we are busy and see how a simple A/G operator has to manage a “Crystal Ball” to sometimes divine what is going on from the only “Tower” in England that is below the level of the runway! |
and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft. PUBLISH NOTAMS. READ THE NOTAMS. |
As an unlicensed airfield Popham are unable to publish NOTAMs.
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crt86t: I apologise for calling you an 'amateur' in post #8.
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and answered various calls for PPR and had been actively discouraging any visiting aircraft due to the soft and muddy runway conditions. In itself this was not a problem as Popham is only PPR for non-radio aircraft. We've established that telephoning is clearly time wasting for both callers and the recipients. Why do you think doctors are moving off the telephone based booking system? PUBLISH NOTAMS. READ THE NOTAMS. They can give you the latest gen on issues like quality of the runway surface and local weather. Quite a few airfields have tricky nuances in their joining procedures and noise abatement procedures which are best discussed before you visit. As per the previous posts NOTAMS are important but can never give you the full picture of what is happening on that day at that particular field. Not sure I understand the relevance of doctors' booking systems!? :confused: |
Quote: I've personally witnessed someone getting a b****ing over the radio within minutes of starting up at Popham. The guy had taxied from one end of the flight line to the other and made the heinous omission of not announcing his intentions to the guy behind the desk. This must be a local rule. Is it published? D.O. |
Originally Posted by EcamSurprise
... a a/g operator (who refers to himself as ATC on the website..)
The website is at pains to point out that they are not ATC, despite what others (including agencies who do know better but are using shorthand) might call them:
Originally Posted by Popham
N.B. The Rules! It is a CAA requirement as CAP413 now includes the paragraph:
"It is correct procedure to announce identity on all telephone calls: with incoming calls it is the opening remark and with outgoing calls it is the reply to the recipient’s announcement of identity. FISOs and AGCS operators must never identify themselves as '....air traffic control'." Popham radio is Air/Ground and as such is NOT Air Traffic "Control", however the generic term "ATC" is widely used as everyone seems to understand this abbreviation! Even Solent Radar, Farnborough, Lasham, Boscombe, Odiham, etc., still call us on the phone and ask for "ATC"! Perhaps we should just use "AT"! We get numerous calls asking for us to correct the "ATC" question so before you write in again the answer is the same - all we can do is repeat the above! Popham: Great place, great people. "If Carlsberg made unlicenced airfields..." ;) Don't let a storm in an electronic teacup put you off. |
mmmm .... if the individual is who I think it is, then I had some 'experience' of him providing guest a/g radio service at a certain Scottish airfield several years ago.
Despite it being a/g I seem to remember he was directing aircraft and getting somewhat upset at anyone who did their own thing without his clearance. I wasn’t bollocked but got a sarcastic remark on departure. It was my first time on grass in this particular type, which was rather underpowered and had a propensity to use quite a bit of runway. Therefore I back tracked, turned and started the takeoff run without a full stop line up. Can’t quite remember what was said, but it was something along the lines of 'feel free to takeoff from my airfield whenever you like'. Not exactly what was needed when I had a high workload and was somewhat tense. A complaint was lodged with the Manager with overall responsibility. No idea what happened as shortly thereafter he was sent to Coventry ;) I believe. |
Now then, now then. Calm down folks. Just go non radio and use two eyes, instead of one mouth. Popham is a nice friendly place which doesn't require you to sign your first born child away to use their grass. There are very few things worth getting so wound up about, and IMHO this isn't one of them.
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I tend to believe Chris Thompson of the two.
I've flown from Popham on and off for years, in a lot of types. I've witnessed several bollockings (thankfully never received any -at Popham anyhow), which were all:- (a) Delivered on the ground, and (b) For flying over the Petrol station. I've seen Chris in action whilst enjoying tea and cake, or flying circuits, and whilst he tends to be a little dour, I've never seen him less than professional in his conduct. It is however 'injun country around there - and traffic can come from anywhere, and be talking on any or no frequency. Everybody should behave accordingly. P |
I really don't know what to make of this now. I was rather hoping that OscarZulu
would have come back to substantiate either his, or the other statement. Safety, is paramount and that is why I took the view that I did. We have today all witnessed an horrendous accident with an extremely experienced pilot involved, obviously working in a high pressure (weather) environment. It can happen to any one of us, nobody is infallible. "If" the a/g operator is course with his words, probably now is the time to reflect upon what some have said here. I do not wish Popham or indeed the a/g operator any harm whatsoever. On that basis, I apologise to Mono and I understand why you said what you did. :ok: I now plan to fly into Popham when the runways have dried out and sample the ambience that has been described by many. |
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