Harvard' PB at Duxford today
 

Hello everybody, here is an example of conduct that two Ex Training Captains witnessed today, whilst transiting from Elstree to Duxford, to attend an Airline Reunion of old Pilots.

My ex colleague invited me to take a ride with him in a Club PA38, rather than drive down the M25 and then M11, as the Reunion was to take place at Duxford. I was rather pleased as the Motorway was solid.

That said,the flight along the still active Olympics corridor was quite interesting, especially as the Events have now ceased. We duly arrived at Duxford to be told to join downwind left for 24, which we did, we were number 2 on finals, and soon became number one.

At approximately 500 feet, so on short finals, Harvard 'PB called that he was entering the runway ready for take off, and was so cleared as the ATC is advisory only!!

Instead of departing he sat on the end of the runway not making any further RT calls and remained there forcing us to make a go around! This may be acceptable at a Flying Club, when ab initios are doing circuits, but with a Warbird, one would expect the Pilot to be not only professional in his conduct but courteous.

We could have been a Club PA38 with private low houred pilots on board, who might well have been spiked by this and landed over his head, or screwed up the go around from a low level.

We went around, and not a word was spoken, not an apology or anything. This incurred some 10 minutes extra flying time, for which my colleague was duly charged, but that is not the point!

The Harvard Pilot had heard our call on short finals, and was cleared for immediate take off, which he did not do, thus could have imperilled the little craft on short finals.

In my day, this would have at least been a full apology, and furthermore a full round of Beers in the Bar later.

I would point out that I have nearly 2000 hours on Harvards, from 30 years ago, in my Log Book, and suggest the reason for his remaining on the Runway was in fact finger trouble in not selecting the Hydraulic Power lever to energise the system for deploying Flap and raising the Gear, except in a MkIV! In which case it was pure bloody mindedness. :\ This is normally done after the run ups before lining up (950 PSI is required from memory).

The fact that nothing was said, let alone apology, and that it cost money, pissed me off to the extent I am writing this now. More to the point, at the Reunion, it was seen that a Tomahawk had been made to go around by the Harvard stuck on the end of the runway, and when it was stated to be us, we were told it was operated by Mr JR and that he often tends to operate at Duxford as" God".

This pissed me off even more, as in my day when operating with Ormande Haydon Baillie on his Sea Fury and T33, both of which I flew, the said JR was the Tea Boy in "Blenheim Palace". How time flies when this self taught Engineer, now self appointed chief display pilot acts in such an unprofessional, and discourteous manner.

If it was another Pilot then I apologise to Mr JR, and pass my complaint to the real idiot responsible. I thank God I have done all that and got the Tea Shirt and survived into retirement!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

It should a Beer for all who witnessed it - A fair reminder for the pilot, A La Taxiing showing your slip, or with the Flaps or Airbrake still deployed, which was SOP" a Beer for All for witnessed said transgression". :D

I don't know which bit of this post is the most entertaining. (The Tea Boy or possibly the the Tea Shirt? )
... but I am sure it must have been a grand reunion & wish FAStoat and his colleagues many more of them. :D

FAStoat:

John Romain does not operate at Duxford as "God." I have been there about eight years and see him invariably as aware, considerate and courteous. Are you sure he was flying the Harvard?

Alan.

PB is a Mk 1V...

Just imagine having to do a bolter in a PA-38. Did you have the hook down?

As I said!If it was not Mr JR,then I apologise,and hope my complaint is passed to the appropiate idiot responsible.Airmanship is Airmanship,and it was sadly lacking in this case!I would refer you to Thrust Code (12)-"It is a pity that in Wartime we would be on the same side."If 'PB is a MkIV then it was pure bloody mindedness,as he had automatic Hydraulic Pressure for any services required,and should have expedited his departure.The comment concerning "God" was reiterating a succession of comments expressed by apparent Duxford operators,who witnessed the event,and were keen to state their opinion.Not operating from there since the 70s I do not have the knowledge to form an opinion on the manners of said operator,but relate what was stated by several in attendance!!

So if it wasn't Mr Romain then tell us whom it was please. Looks like a few ranks closing here :hmm:

Purely as a matter of interest; I flew into Duxford in my little aeroplane some years ago. I think I was the only aeroplane on the frequency. On finals I was told to land on 24 Grass because the main runway was closed.

So, with my reasonable experience of aviation, I side-stepped to 24 Grass and landed.

Several hours later, I departed from Duxford. I was cleared to taxi to 24 (which I assumed meant the same 24 Grass that I landed upon). I held short of where I assumed the holding point to the grass runway was to be BERATED by the pillock on the other end of the radio telling me to get my arse down to the end of runway 24 (tarmac).

I felt like telling him that I had 17,000 hours of operating large aircraft into airfields such as JFK, ORD and ATL but I bit my tongue and apologised.

I have never ever flown back into Duxford's precious airspace nor shall I ever again.

JW411

It is obviously far too late to comment on the specific incident, but whatever the reasons may have been, rudeness or 'berating' on the radio is never acceptable and I'm sorry you had such an experience. I understand how even years later it grates on your memory.

Duxford is such a special place for pilots and aviation enthusiasts, it is a shame that you feel you can never come back. I would like to show you how Duxford airfield and its people are today and I would like to invite you back. I am working on 22nd and 23rd September. If you would like to accept the invitation, on these dates or any others, please send me a PM.

Alan.

Funfly:

I wasn't working on Wednesday, so I really can't say who was flying the Harvard, nor what the pilot's side of the story might have been. I am speaking how I have found John Romain and I do not believe he would deliberately obstruct a landing aicraft in the way described by FAStoat.

FAStoat:

As to your complaint, I think it would be much more effective if you were to call the tower and speak directly to the FISO who was working yesterday. The number is 01223 833376.

Alan.

Ear bashing
 

I was doing the bi annual instructor check for a well known Aerobatic pilot in an Extra & while we were in the CCT we kept getting the guy in the tower bleating on that we could not land because of rule 43 ( or something like that ).

The reason was that there was an aircraft who had just cleared the far end of the runway and was not far enough way from the runway, the whole thing was strange interpretation of the rules made even more strange the next day at Gatwick when I am cleared to "land after" when the aircraft ahead has yet to clear the runway.
It all goes to show that common sense is not so common.

What I find most interesting is that apart from a couple(One of whom was one the finest Trainers I have ever known),NONE of you have offered any sort of mutual criticism of the actions of the Harvard Pilot!!.In fact I would go so far as suggest most of you seem to consider it to be a reasonable action, for a Warbird Pilot to taxi on an active runway whilst an approach and landing is to be made ahead of you,by a little Club PA38,which would obviously be piloted by a poor little PPL,and then baulk his landing,by just sitting on the end of the runway.We continued our approach until 100ft at which point it was obvious the Harvard was going to make no attempt to depart,and then broke starboard and called going around.At that point both of us were considerably concerned that said Harvard was not about to climb up underneath us or arrive at the crosswind point at that same time,as very little airmanship had been shown by him up to this point.Upon landing we just consoled each other that we had both retired and hopefully would not be quite so irritated in future.It was only when met by a bunch of old colleagues and bystanders that various bits of information and obvious issues were imparted to us,hence the need to air the issues here!As the ATC was only advisory,we felt it to be the Pilot's gross bad manners as opposed to the lack of foresight of the controller.
Quite frankly I give up ,as your standards are well below anything I have ever tried to impart into my Students or Trainees/First Officers,and will not give you any sympathy if anything untoward occurs in your Aviation Career.As a Mentor of mine used to say-"You wont get any sympathy if you cock up,remember where it comes in the Dictionary-Between **** and Syphillis".:mad:

FAStoat, why so aggressive in your last post? I must have missed the bit where anybody here has suggested that the actions of the unknown Harvard pilot as described are up to standard, or defended such actions.

What they have done is to give their positive opinions of a named individual. That's a commendable thing for them to do, I'd suggest. Unfortunately I can't say the same about publicly berating that individual for something you're not even sure he did.

Why not, as alphaalpha says, call Duxford tower and take your complaint it up via that route? It's far more likely to have a positive outcome for everyone.

There seems to be considerable confusion in the original post about what air traffic service is/was provided at Duxford. As alphaalpha says, it is FIS - so the voice on the RT is a FISO, not a controller, there is no such thing as "advisory ATC", and the Harvard would not - or certainly should not - have been given any take-off clearance, immediate or otherwise.

2 s

I'll just add one thing to 2 Sheds' post in reply to A and C.

Duxford is FIS and as such cannot approve a land-after. The rules of the air apply and you cannot land on an occupied runway. I know it seem to lack common sense, when we are talking about spam cans on a long runway, but that's still the rule and there's no discretion.

Where there might be room for discussion, I suggest, is at what point does the runway become vacated? Air traffickers will clear an aircraft to land as soon as the preceding aircraft has vacated the physical runway and is till moving. You might take the view that the runway is infringed and therefore still occupied if the traffic has not yet passed the hold. I have never found a definitive reference to this question.

Alan.

Alphaalpha:

I really do thank you for your very kind reply to my post.

Unfortunately, where I said that I will never visit Duxford ever again means that I shall never visit Duxford ever again.

Nothing personal, but I found your colleague's manner to be extremely offensive and it smacked very much of the "big fish in small pond" syndrome and whilst I might put up with that sort of crap at JFK because I have to, I am certainly not going to risk having another bad experience at Duxford.

I think we need some balance here.
Whilst I have sympathy with anyone who has to go around due to somebody hogging the runway, I must speak in support of the Duxford folks.
I have flown in to Duxford on two occasions, the second being a CAA safety day. Despite suggestions to the contrary, I found the service to be excellent on both occasions whilst mixing with much faster traffic as I negotiated the circuit in my 50hp hotship.
JW411, give them a chance :ok:

No vested interest in this event other than to say that 'PB is technically a Mk IV but has a T6G direct acting hydraulic system. Not entirely sure what difference that makes to this event but happy to clarify it.

I've lost count the number of times I've had to go around due to somebody lining up without looking. How dare he/she get in your way!:E

JW411 - The reception we receive at airfields (and pubs, restaurants, shops, hotels etc.) inevitably colours our views, and someone obviously did a poor job a few years ago at Duxford.

I've been in and out a few times over the last week, and there's no doubt that it's a very special place that is truly unique in the UK. I have no connection to Duxford or the IWM, but just find it a shame that a bad experience a while ago is spoiling your enjoyment today.

Some places deserve a second chance - Duxford is one of those places IMHO.

Ian

JW411. You never returning to Duxford is certainly Duxford's loss. It is also yours.

Ok!This is beginning to really irritate me.I have laid before you a story,and these are the FACTS;
Aircraft A-Club PA38 on "Finals to land" at 500Ft in 2 way with ATC
Aircraft B Warbird Harvard T6G at Holding Point for 24 in two way with ATC
Profile:PA38-Club Aircraft usually low time PPL -Inexpereienced usually but not in this case!
Profile:Harvard-Expensive Warbird Either Very Experienced PPL or Commercial Pilot and exceedingly experienced.
At the 500Ft point on PA38 Approach, Harvard calls for line up and departure.Taxis on to Runway and lines up.As a T6G he has no hydraulic power lever issue,so all he has to do is taxi forward a few feet and with the stick back,which locks the Tail Wheel.OR there may be a handle that locks the Tailwheel ,as earlier marks .
We descend 400ft to 100ft @300Ft per min so this takes over 60secs.The Harvard is still on the end of the runway,and says nothing.At 100Ft my pilot calls going around.
I assume the Harvard Pilot is not Deaf Dumb Or Blind!!!Therefore with Mk1 Eyeball vision he has seen us.He has 2 way with Air Traffic as we do,so SPATIAL AWARENESS should kick in,that the Aircraft on Finals must be close!!!Absolutely nothing happens in the Harvard Cockpit,to alleviate the matter.
If any of you out there think that is acceptable,I am disgusted.This is the 21st Century.It has already been made plain this sort of event is not uncommon,and we should have bitten our lip and got on with it.Well FLYING MACHINES are very well equipped to kill you,without human interference.If you all dont get a grip on reality you will end up as a statistic.The Standard of Operating Procedures at Duxford seem to be sadly lacking,as other very experienced Pilots have commented on.
so far all that has been achieved is a "Monty Python" muttering among the crowd that" Oh he is a very good chap who could not possibly be responsible,no no rhubarb rhubarb"!Well it did happen ,I assure you and I suspect a very experienced pilot did it!!!It is a serious Flight Safety issue,which should arouse pilot's self preservation instinct if nothing else.This sort of thing should NOT happen,Not at Duxford,NOT ANYWHERE!
I would point out it is only the advices of my colleague who was doing the flying that persuaded me not to take a trip to the "Belgrano".If you dont want the likes of legends,Draper, LLewellyn Jones,etc banging on your door,or to be put in a box,then sharpen up and get a grip.

What exactly do you want to hear from your "audience"?

The fact that you

- are apparently still "suffering" from the non-event of having been involved in a light aircraft go-around more than two days ago,
- name, discredit and pass on negative rumours about an individual - without even knowing whether he was the pilot of the other aircraft (not that that would matter),
- still waffle irrelevantly about a Harvard's hydraulic system even though you (still) don't know why it didn't take off (could very well have been a legitimate reason, such as the pilot having a sneeze attack, glasses fell of his nose, an instrument indication of some sort not matching expectations, etc. etc. etc.)
- still mention "ATC" even though an earlier post clarified that there is no such thing at Duxford,
- apparently still haven't called Duxford to find out what happened, despite an invitation to the contrary

is unfortunately starting to discredit you more than whoever was in the Harvard.

Such things happens all the time, all over the place.

I fly from a 400m runway with a public road crossing one threshold and a traffic light regulating crossing traffic. The other day, while #2 to land, I watched #1 go around because a bicyclist decided to disregard the traffic light. No hollering, no screaming and no corresponding postings on the Internet, just a brief "XY going around".

Anyone let loose in aircraft alone (including students) must be fairly assumed to be capable of executing a go-around, whenever required, without loosing control of the aircraft.

I cannot see the drama in this episode, even more so when also considering your apparently significant experience.

I think you need to go and have a lie down and calm down. We all understood your account the first time, you don't need to spell it out again. If your account is correct it does sound like poor airmanship, but there could be more to the story. Perhaps there was a tech snag and although he planned to roll immediately he had to pause. We don't know and you don't know, so why don't you follow the advice in a previous post and call that number to discuss the issue.

Ranting on here is pointless and publicly naming and shaming a particular pilot when you are not even sure if it was him operating is extremely poor form.

Just a quick general post in support of Duxford's Tower and personnel. We have flown into Duxford a few times just recently and I have to say, with my albeit VERY limited experience of FISOs and ATC, the guys at Duxford are great, even when this particular student messes up her RT readback procedures!! :O;)

Threads like this one are what make PPRUNE great, and why I keep visiting.
Keep it up folks!
Seriously though - what's concerning me is that the OP clearly is not a wind up. What planet is he on?

H

More Trident talk?;)

Did you make a further call when the Harvard said he was lining up? I don't condone the Harvard crew's actions, but honestly it is possible they didn't hear you on the R/T (even though the FISO obviously did) It is possible the radio violume was turned down to brief the run-up or indeed any other multitude of reasons. However a good lookout you think you may be, there is ALWAYS the opportunity to miss traffic, even on final at 500'. This is also possibly the case. Perhaps the FISO could have suggested (I am aware of the constraints of a FISO) there was traffic on short final.

I've had the pleasure of operating in and out of Duxford many a time, fantastic place. I have to say I've always received a friendly service from them. Sorry to hear some of you won't be going back. The museum needs all the funds they can get. Oh, and JR is a real gent. He restored a Chippy I was involved in years ago.

I trust the white kid leather gloves kept the sweat at bay during the ensuing go-around in the Tomahawk! :cool:

What most of us would do:

"Golf Victor Golf, going around"

vs. this:

"Golf Victor Meldrew.............I don't belieeeeeeeeeeeeeve it! - have you any idea who I am? I've a good mind to complain to the CAA. I want the tapes from Duxford Radar pulled immeeeeeediately! I demand to speak to the approach controller!.....going around. Under protest. Just wait till I get onto Pprune..."

Fastoat,

Have you considered the chap/chapess in the T6 might have had a problem? It even happens in the CAT world.. Your pilot did exactly the right thing and went around. 'Drama' avoided (although not apparently on this forum)

Get over it and move on..:ok:

That's just perfect. :D

Just think, this whole thread may have been avoided if the T6 pilot had said 'Sorry about that' over the R/T :rolleyes:

Similar thing happended to me a few years back at Bembridge. The preceding aircraft was a touch and go who changed his mind on the runway and converted it into a landing and backtrack. I got an extra circuit in the Yak and he appologised over the radio. Job done, no one injured and no reason for me to go and duff him up (physically, verbally or in print on a forum).

I guess the OP is more concerned that the T6 pilot was either completely unaware of what was going on around him or not prepared to admit to a mistake. But I would suggest that this method of obtaining satisfaction is a bit over the top.

Inconvenienced? Yes. Danger? No. That is unless you steamed up the screen with all that hot air.:ouch: I can just see the bulging neck muscles and the veins standing out. Perhaps a heart attack risk?

Gawd knows what the drive to the airport was like.

D.O.

FAStoat, I really think u need to visit the Belgrano for some anger management courses........:O

I flew out of Duxford for one or two years so feel reasonably qualified to comment.

My comment is why didn't you saunter down to ARC and have a cup of tea with the pilot concerned to find out what was the hiccup his end? Was there a prob with his pax/student? Was there a problem with his aircraft/engine? Was there a problem with his radio? A 'one to one' between gentlemen would have sorted this out in a heartbeat without berating someone via this website.

Take some chill pills and enjoy your weekend.

Alan Walker
(Happy to identify myself)

And all this started by the passenger!

2 s

Al Walker's comment summarises my feelings nicely as to what should have happend. But there's still time for a phone call, if FAStoat wants to find out the other side of the story.

Guys, Duxford hasn't been perfect in the past and probably won't be in the future, but if you want to find out what the best active aviation museum (in Europe??) is all about, give us a call and fly in. If you have a grievance from the past, come and tell us about it. We're all human beings, we sometimes make mistakes, but we love our jobs, we care and we want you to enjoy Duxford.

Alan.

FAStoat

A little care with presentation such as paragraphs and indents would have made your posts far more readable.

Me, I skimmed them and gave up.

I have been flying in to Duxford for nearly 20 years and have got nothing but courtesy from the ATCers.

I might go so far as to suggest that, having lined up the Harvard had a problem and couldn't go immediately.

It was not the ATCer's fault that you got no apology from the pilot.

So quit bleating on here and as Alan says,ring the Duxford number.

Cusco

I think that this first one at least is in fact not a fact, on account of there is no ATC at Duxford?

This is an astonishing thread.

I welcome the chance to show off my piloting skills and ability to adapt to changing situations. People can block my approach anytime.

If FAStoat operates an aircraft the way he operates a keyboard, I fear for his passengers, whether private or fare paying!

I go into Duxford fairly often and have found them really helpful.

But I have also learned that when warbirds are about you do need to stand off a bit.

Personally I hate it when on short finals someone creeps on to the runway or cuts me up on the approach. I generally have a quiet word with them afterwards, though have been surprised just how many don't accept they have done anything wrong.

I do wonder if some warbird pilots have a sense of entitlement and feel they don't have to obey the normal rules of the air. That said, some of them are the nicest pilots I have met.