Airfields that ban some of us, plus the "no fees for safety diversions" scheme
 

A bit of a "name and shame" effort, and a bit of a public information thing on my part.

What precipitated this was that I was flying a flexwing microlight the other day in the midlands, when my comms system decided to go t**s-up; so deciding that being close to controlled airspace and unable to talk to my pax who was presumably wondering what the heck was going on, I should divert to the nearest GA airfield and sort it out on the ground.

So I slotted into the circuit at Tatenhill, which I did not have details for but could see on the chart nearby, and landed.

Securing the aeroplane (it was rather windy and I was NOT leaving it alone until firmly tied down) I met a duty jobsworth storming out looking somewhat red in the face who confronted me with "The BOOK says that this airfield does not accept flexwing microlights, and does not accept non-radio arrivals". Telling him that I'd had a comms failure simply precipitated demands to remove myself and my aircraft as quickly as possible, and a £12 landing fee.

So, who are the, well, less friendly, airfields we all know of? Offhand I can offer:-

Bans flexwings
Tatenhill
Turweston
Thruxton

No free emergency diversions
Tatenhill (despite AOPA claiming they do)

Bans "Group A"
London Colney

Bans powered
Lasham ("except on gliding business")

G

That's true of many gliding sites. Frequently, as at my club, it is due to planning restrictions. Many PPLs will not be familiar with gliding hazards such as 'invisible' cables on the ground or in the overhead and people on the manoevring area, so where visitors are permitted they often restrict them to pilots with gliding experience who tend to be on gliding business. Many gliding sites have relatively rough or undulating surfaces that don't have marked runways so briefings are required (think Dunstable).

P.S. Lasham does take airliners though...

And night flying Navy Wessex who were supposed to be landing at Odiham... :oh:

Do they provide a reason why microlights are discouraged/banned over other GA traffic?

Is it possible that some microlights are equipped with 2 stroke engines and I assume they may be noisier than other aircraft and may exceed noise abatement guidelines for certain fields. Not saying this is the case just asking a question

I know in some US states 2 stroke jet skis are banned on certain lakes where 4 strokes are acceptable, granted this was partly due to the increased oil a 2 stroke throws out but I believe noise was a factor also.

You told him to stuff his fee up his tailpipe, presumably?

I had a very similar experience in 2008 in the Pitts at Henstritch. Had set off in company with a Luscomb from Popham to Compton Abbas but had to divert, so chose Henstritch. By the time we arrived there I was short on fuel and wasn't going anywhere else comfortably.

There was some mix up in word from the ground station while I was in the circuit, only to then be told just as my wheels were about to touch the ground that the radio operator wasn't sure I was allowed to land there. Well, too bad, because a) I already had and b) I wasn't going anywhere else without some petrol.

There then ensued a most inhospitable bollocking from some officious jobsworth **** who told me Pitts Specials were specifically forbidden, that I was told not to land (not true) and a whole load of other twoddle I promptly forgot. After hearing all of this, two club members seperately came up to me afterward and apologized for the cantankerous Good Humour Man and said they were glad to have me there.

I never cast my shadow over their tarmac again.

piperboy84: obviously you are unaware that UK reg microlights whether 3-axis or flexwing have to have a notarised noise certificate.
Flexwings are banned at Fairoaks too, (although you're unlikely to be turned away if you declare an emergency) presumably because their low landing speed might cause problems to aircraft following them as being a FISO airfield, only one landing aircraft is allowed at a time, and the only place to vacate is the runway end taxiway.
NB: The FISO cannot prevent you landing if the runway is occupied, but the CAA require an MOR to be filed if you do!

I could understand a mandatory briefing. A two stroke ban on noise grounds perhaps makes some sense. But a whole control system? And airliners and gliders hut not light fixed wing?

G

Genghis, if you are an AOPA member, perhaps you could pass on the details of your incident to the office, including Tatenhill's alleged failure to observe its obligations as a member of the Strasser Scheme.

Normally if there's any misunderstanding, a few words from AOPA to the aerodrome manager sorts things out.

...but not without considerable prior arrangement and instrument runway sterilisation. Airliners may not just lob in.

BEagle, not AOPA, but I have spoken to BMAA who I think are going to have some words.

G

Playing devils advocate, the Strasser Scheme is for genuine emergencies, I have landed at Tatenhill following an inflight loss of oil pressure in an Rockwell 114. No oil pressure, temps going sky high, rpm / manifold pressure falling. I did not get charged any landing fee. I was 6 miles away with Tatenhill on the nose when the emergency started.

The Flexwing flight - a VFR flight in an aircraft with relatively slow ground speed, no legal mandatory requirement to have radio and during the flight you lost Com's. To me that's not a real emergency, a little uncomfortable maybe, a quick landing somewhere to sort it out if it bothered you.

The comments about controlled airspace, you knew it was there and could avoid it, so no great issue there. I can understand the view that it was a precautionary landing rather than a real emergency under the terms of the Strasser agreement.

With regards restrictions at certain airfields, the airfield owner writes the rules, he decides who can and can't come to play. This may be influenced by local factors which we may be unaware of. Ultimately its his right to decide who can visit and in what. A little like a homeowner deciding who they want to let into their house.

I am a little puzzled as to what the real problem is?

The problem for me, personally was that I was being bluntly lectured for having broken rules without any inquiry about why I was there or whether I had a problem. I offered to pay a landing fee to calm the man down, but having explained the precautionary landing, did not expect the offer to be accepted: that it was is rude, but a lot less rude than the rest of it.

There's also absolutely no way you can look up Pooleys in a flexwing in flight also, and I was not going to do another hour with my pax not knowing my ongoing intentions.

My call to take a precautionary diversion, which I still think was the right one.

G

Aviation is a funny business. Arthur Scragill should have been in aviation, not coal. Every time Maggie tried to whack him with her handbag (unlikely in the first place in aviation) he could have just held up a banner with the magic "S" word and everybody would have backed off.

The "S" concept has enabled aviation to engage in a lot of empire building because most of those bankrolling the businesses haven't got a clue about it.

The problem with this business culture is that attracts (via job applications) and breeds anally retentive types, who think that not wearing a yellow jacket is the end of the world and is going to kill everybody within 10nm. God knows what these character types do when they get home. Perhaps becoming an ISO9000 quality manager, or maybe even a chief REACH compliance officer, is the holy grail?

I can understand your feelings that the guy did not perhaps handle the matter in a friendly way. Equally there may be other factors (planning, noise for example) that influence the way he reacted.

Strasser Scheme

Here are the details and principals of the Strasser scheme

As I said, the landing fee issue for me was pretty trivial. The implication that as I was in the wrong sort of aeroplane, I shouldn't have diverted *there* was not.

G

G to be honest these people are pretty much standard now across the UK working at airports..

It doesn't matter what the airmanship reason is why your are doing something if it doesn't fit in with what there interpretation of the rule book is it is there right to throw a fit. And I think that pilot being in the main alpha males (including the burds) don't instantly recognise the percieved status of ground ops director little piddlington intergalatic space port.

The fact that later in the main they find out the are largely impotent in the grand scale of things annoys them even more, and the next breach of their labour of love rule book incures an increased rath.

You won't change anything by complaining. But at least posting on here and making it public will annoy the pillock even more.

There are a few goodun's out there though. It does seem related though to how much of an aviation god the SATCO is and how much control they have over the ground ops.

IMO that's beyond doubt. The fact that you, as PIC, felt a precautionary landing was justified is reason enough.

Any inflight failure should prompt the question "where would this leave me if something else were to happen". If, let us say, you were unfortunate enough to lose the engine later in the flight, the loss of comms with both ground & your passenger could have made a catastrophic difference to the outcome.

The whole point of the Strasser scheme is to remove any cost/permission issues which might influence a GA pilot's decision to make a precautionary landing. Unless someone is obviously taking the p**s, subsequently questioning that decision undermines the principle of the agreement and IMO this kind of behaviour by Tatenhill harms us all.

Any inflight failure should prompt the question "where would this leave me if something else were to happen". If, let us say, you were unfortunate enough to lose the engine later in the flight, the loss of comms with both ground & your passenger could have made a catastrophic difference to the outcome.

You lose the engine and thus the noise of it so you can speak to your passenger. The thing dosnt just fall out of the sky without an engine you can glide to a safe field landing even without the glide angle of a glider. Hundred of people fly cross country without radio or engine each year.
Aviate, Navigate , Comminicate.
I dont agree with Ghengis reason for the divert but I totaly agree with him about his reception. GA is only a small group of people in this country. Why cant we all get on : be it group A, microlight, Balloons, gliders etc.

Last year, preflighting Chipmunk (well that's my excuse for the green growbag). Ops man charges half-way across aerodrome to castigate me for not wearing yellow jacket. Conversation something like this...

Me - 'I'm not wearing one 'cos I'm about to go flying'
Him - 'Well take it off in the aeroplane'
Me - 'Wait a minute...I'm wearing camouflage and you still spotted me from way over there. Aren't I conspicuous enough then?'

Serious sense of humour failure then followed:ugh:

Suppose the guy was just doing his job.

Yes but your risk is increased if you do.

And if you don't want to accept that increased risk you shouldn't have to because of some pillock's rule book.

I am more than happy flying a flying school standard heap of crap sans ASI alitimeter, radios and everything else as long as the engine is running and is unlikely to stop, around the highlands of scotland with only me onboard.

Doesn't mean I would be happy doing it in deepest darkest england next to CAS or with pax apart from another ex reprabate FI that knows the score.

And neither would I expect another pilot to be happy doing what I would accept.

CumulusRider

That is not the point as ones mans "its just a nuisance" might be another mans "I want to land."

The whole point is that we all have failures of one item or another and make a decision on whether to continue the flight or not.

As a general rule It is far better to be on the ground and sort it out rather than to press on.

Press on maybe ok but you then need to consider other future events along the line where loss of radio would make those worse.

Frankly self proclaimed Hitlers like that? You are probably best holding your ground and giving them a mouthful back as to feed their Ego just encourages the same attitude to the next person and there is no excuse for rudeness.

Pace

I do think that the person's reported attitude to Genghis was poor. But you do have to look at the big picture. We are not aware of the reasons that Tatenhill does not want flex wings, however its their choice. You also have to look at the situation, no radio and no intercom in a flex wing, does that threaten the safety of the flight? If not then according to the wording of the Strasser agreement it's not a "real" emergency. If the engine failed was the com's kit required for a safe outcome - of course not. In fact historically there have been many instances of engine failiures in flex wing, the vast majority not reported to anyone. I know this first hand having spent time over the last twenty years at Long Marston (the engines are much better now).


I have a large field at the back of my house, there is often something that fly's parked there. Would I be upset if someone dropped in? If they had a genuine emergency (something that threatened the safety of the flight) then NO. However if they dropped in for a problem with something that they could have safely continued the flight with then I would not be happy. Simply because of the likely raised eyebrows of my neighbours and my sensitivity to not upsetting them (and not wanting them to think the field might get busy...). I have to get on with them after the visitor has gone.

Genghis obviously did not know the restriction at Tatenhill, an innocent mistake with a disproportionate response by a jobsworth. But is it really worth blacking the name of Tatenhill over that?

Personally the only time I take a jobsworth seriously is when they are dressed in DPM holding a gun!!

Is reporting the facts of an upsetting incident by an individual really seen as "blackening the name" of the whole airfield?

Btw, the airfield is Tatenhill, only one "t" in the middle.

While we are naming and shaming, can pressure be exerted on Belfast-Intl., Cardiff, Leeds/Bradford, London-Luton and Manchester?
I'm guessing that Luton and Manchester claim they are too busy (but then Stansted, which is twice as busy as Luton and pretty similar to Manchester is on the scheme) but what is the excuse for the others?
In NI Belfast-Intl would be a much easier approach in an emergency than Belfast-City / George Best.

GEP

I used to fly into Tatenhill a lot in twins and never had a problem! It was always a very quiet do your own thing sort of place.
I wonder if the attitude would have been the same if Genghis had arrived in a Cessna 150?
Maybe it was the type of flying machine the guy reacted against!
While a radio failure may not be a big thing in an aircraft like that it maybe to some and it is for the pilot to state his case and reasons.
Was it an emergency NO! is the Strasser designed for emergencies? NO
The Strasser was designed to stop an emergency situation developing by a pilot passing a useable airfield purely based on cost.

I once moved a Cessna 150 which had no nav kit apart from the radio.
The cloudbase was 1000 feet in light rain and as a river line went almost to my destination I decided to fly VFR below cloud knowing that if I kept the river below me I could not hit any high ground.
I was pushed down and down and now at 2-300 feet with more intense rain and cloud appearing below the aircraft I decided enough was enough climbed in cloud to the SSA and contacted a military base with the intention of using the radio for a PAR! luckily 25 miles on the weather cleared but no radio???

Pace

Pace - I agree, every time I have been there its been quiet, but the people I have seen have been friendly. Might be that the jobsworth just hated flex wings!!

Ghengis

On the way out shutting the door you should have flour bombed him from 30 feet :E splat splat splat!! :{

Pace

To be fair, that description also applies to my favourite uncle and many other very pleasant people.

G

Ok - Ginger and fat?

My uncle is grey and bearded. Not all people who are grey and bearded are my uncle.

G

I've landed several times at Lasham in powered SEP aircraft, admittedly for a purpose but certainly not on gliding business. Parham, Wormingford, Challock, Upwood and Rattlesden as well. Some have planning issues or movement limits for power aircraft. I personally think it's more like: "you power pilots can't possibly be as good as us glider pilots, so be a good chap and buzz off"

If you want to land at a gliding airfield that 'bans' power, just lob in unannounced, land exactly where you want, start making phone calls and when challenged, tell them you ran out of ideas and "landed out'. Works for gliders at the private strip I fly from which only accepts any aircraft by invitation...:E

I have been banned personally from the Hertfordshire hell hole that is Panshanger..... for force landing on the runway with a total & terminal engine failure without the owner's permission and for not asking permission on the radio. When I explained I would have landed at Heathrow in similar circumstances, it all got a bit heated. :rolleyes:

Another thing which works but takes some practice is to break out in uncontrollable and hysterical laughter occasionally pointing a finger at him then doubling over splitting your sides!
Works or you get carted off to the nearest Looney Bin :{

Pace

Like Genghis, don't think its ok to carry on at all if you have a sudden comm failure and don't know what has caused it.
I had a regulator burn out in an R44, the first symptom was the radio and intercomm cutting in and out. As I was deciding on which field to carry out a precautionary landing, several warning lights started flashing like a christmas tree along with the needles bouncing around. by the time we landed in a field we had lost all electrics, and had a completely burnt out regulator. Who knows if a fire might have ensued, had I not landed and shut down.
Different thing altogether having comms then losing them, than flying non radio, which is how I learnt to fly.
Also in a flexwing how do you know its not a loose wire thats about to go through the prop.

Hi folks

I have seen that you have put Turweston in the bad place list , please remove it , the owner the staff and the pilots at Turweston have no problem with flex wing microlights but the local council AVDC does, at the last planning appeal we fought hard to lose the restriction that had been imposed ,we did manage to get 3 axis microlights allowed but the flex wing rule was kept in place by the inspector running the appeal , this said we would never stop or chastise any flex wing pilot for landing if safety was involved .
2 weeks ago I had a flex wing land after the pilot was caught short after encountering a strong headwind, no charge and a happy chap, so do get your facts right before you go naming and shaming.
Regards Chris
.

Max, it seems to me that your post explains things much better than my just removing Turweston from my original post.

G

Chris

That does explain things far more. Having been a regular visitor to Tatenhill in the past I was surprised as I have always found the airfield laid back and its people friendly.
Nevertheless there is little excuse for being bombastic arrogant and dictatorial??
Some pilots may ask for such an attitude but not our Ghengis who is a highly respected individual here.

Pace

...and one 'tw@t' on the ground?

Maybe the bath colour clashed with the tent fly sheet strapped to the top.

Must admit there is so many ways these things can kick off.

My usual one is the old park into wind when its over 20knts in the work machine even when you tell tower what you are doing.

You can have a frothing at the mouth gorilla jumping out of the ops wagon screaming that your not parked as per the yellow lines. And you can have a ramp cop that smiles and opening line is "its a bit hairy today" and finishing line after shooting some krack is "take it you parked like that for start?"
And everything is fine. Were as the gorrilla you would have thought you had tampered with is 10 year old. And it can even be at the same airport just different shifts.

BEagle :ok: like

I've found the ground staff at Blackbushe to be universally charming and helpful, as well as their resident instructors, but the guy on the radio in the tower is quite the most officious annoying man I have so far had the misfortune to encounter.

Also Popham is an airfield that touts itself as being microlight friendly but infact their service is extraordinarily poor. I regurlarly find myself stopping by for fuel as its the only convenient place for me and I walk up to the ops desk and am ignored for anything up to 5 minutes before being asked whether I want avgas for my motorbike and looked up and down like I'm going to steal anything thats not bolted down.

Airfields that are good really seem to stand out. Dunkeswell has always been fantastic with a warm welcome whenever I stop by. Oxford was great for a proper airport and as such made an intimidating place much less scary for me when I was a low hour pilot. There is also a small airfield near Penrith that was unbelievably welcoming, with free hangarage and a donation of whatever you wanted to give for landing fees. The guy that owns it is a real gent as well.