Microlight Crash in Scotland - 2 Fatalities
 

Notified at work about this yesterday but unable to post till made public.

Sadly 2 have been killed when a Microlight which departed from Perth bound for Glenforsa crashed about 100' from the summit of Ben More near Crianlarich. The wreckage and crew were discovered by hillworkers but the crash was unfortunately fatal. It is understood that the aircraft left Perth with 3 others but no further information is publicly available yet.

BBC News - Stirlingshire mountain microlight crash kills two men

Very sad news..:(. I helped run a safety day last year for the BMAA at Scottish Air Traffic Control centre......it always amazed me why most of the microlight brigade never bother speaking to ATC, they just seem to do their own thing on the microlight frequency.......during my talk I tried to convince these guys that ATC were here as friends and here to help.......after the event I recieved numerous emails from some of the pilots saying the first thhing they would do next time they flew was speak to ATC........Now I am not trying to say in this instance talking to ATC would have altered the outcome of this one incident but lets just say if things started to go wrong at an early stage a quick call to ATC may have in some shape or form offered some help. (it certainally would have saved us bit of time and effort yesterday in trying to track down where this aircraft had come from)... So PLEASE next time you fly over inhospitable terrain consider giving Scottish Information a call.....we really are human and indeed are here to assist in what ever way possible. Once again from myself and the rest of Scottish ATC condolences to families and friends to those that have lost a loved one or special friend...:(

I had a busy day instructing out of Glasgow yesterday - Ben More was resplendent all day in the excellent visibility and fairly high cloudbase. There were showers but not over the hills to the north, more running west/east along the Clyde. Turbulence only really less than moderate over the low ground to the lee of hills to the west, and then only below 800'. Fabulous day weather-wise yesterday. What a real shame - exchanged pleasantries at Perth a couple of weeks ago with a couple of the microlighters from there.

FBW,

Spoke to you briefly yesterday on the phone. Very sad indeed.

The subject of using a chat frequency rather than a proper information frequency was brought up at a recent safety evening. At least one of the deceased was present. As you say it may not have made any difference in this case but it was a total fluke that they were found so soon.

Had it not been for the hill walkers the search may have still been on.

India Mike,

Mixed reports about the level of turbulence. I believe it was OK at 7000ft the rest of the group used but there were reports of pretty rough rides by other flyers.

D.O.

I'm a long-term microlighter and I use the radio as little as possible. It may be because microlighters are often brought up in farmer's fields and therefore have no in-built familiarity with the radio from day one or it may just be that microlight flying is different. Much as hang-gliding or paragliding is different. For my regular flying, from a farm strip, talking to an ATC is just extra work I don't want. There is no benefit. If flying over water I use the radio for safety purposes and were I flying over mountainous regions I might do for similar safety reasons. Often I fly with others and might use the illegal "chat" frequency for safety purposes as inter-group communication.

I wouldn't object to using a transponder (so that I can be seen) which I think would provide a deal of benefit with almost zero workload however I would only voluntarily do it on 2 conditions:
1. The technology is brought up to date. £1500 50's technology is a nonsense and I will not subscribe to it. These things should be a fraction of that price and should use a low powerer sensible modern technology.
2. The transponder data is not used for enforcement or prosecution.

I was flying yesterday about 40 miles north of their track. The turbulence below 4000 was pretty bad. At 6000 ft the wind was 35 kts over the high ground whic would have made a pretty strong headwind for a weight shift. There was also quite a lot of thermal activity and large areas of intermittent wave.

To the west of Braemar I got down to 2000ft and a little less, but could only do it by slowing down and being very careful of areas of rotor.

They were quite a way south of there but around Ben More I would expect the conditions would be pretty similar. None of our local weight shifts were flying but that was down to the gusty and fairly strong wind.

All the radio would have done is add questions, perhaps start a search or be a distraction (sorry fishbang but you do come a long way third in my order of priorities).

From my viewpoint it was a pretty rough day over the hills and needed care. But it was bright and sunny and with care why not?

DO......I agree, a total fluke they were found when they were, to be honest probablly not very long after the accident.......lets just imagine if the accident had been survivable and no one reported them missing for some time after.....how long on a snow covered mountain would they have survived without help???

Sorry to bark on about this but please guys in future consider talking to ATC....maybe one day you will be glad you did.

fis you wil never get the microlight boys to speak to you on the radio without a complete change in culture starting with the instructors and working its way down.

I know an ATCO down south who is also an RT examinor who even went round all his local clubs doing free RT courses and tests. I will admit he was motivated because it helped him having a known traffic enviroment in class G while trying to get his CAT aircraft in under vectors.

Even with free courses and test they still wouldn't speak to him. The fixed wing instructors in scotland teach the students to speak to you. I suspect the microlight instructors don't.

If you crack the instructors the students will follow.

How good are microlight radios? My observation (and it is just that, an observation) is that they use hand-held ICOMs or similar, fixed on the frame somewhere. What's the range like? I've tried to use an ICOM in the past as a standby radio and the range was I reckon about 10 miles from 2000 feet, if that.

It really was a beautiful day for flying though, and that was the only context of the weather obs in my earlier post - not trying to make any analysis at all.

I am using exactly that setup: a handheld Icom A6 sliding onto a bracket on the dashboard. I have no trouble communicating with Brussels information even at 50 NM from Brussels, from 1500' AGL or even lower. But must admit I do not know where they have antennae and/or repeaters.

The critical thing however is the antenna, and AFAIK microlight radio setups do not need to be checked or authorised. Mine certainly never was, and I believe it can never be officially certified.

Don't know to what degree it is official, but microlighters often use 123,425 MHz as a default frequency. One place where I know this is done is is EBLN Liernu ulmodrome, which does not have a published frequency. I believe this kind of behaviour can be observed at certain ulmodromes in Germany and France, too.

"Chat Frequency"
 

It is worth remembering the environment that 'most' microlight/flexwing training takes place, i.e. farm strips where there is no need, or legal requirement, to use the radio. I totally believe that it is good practice to use the radio whenever appropriate and definately not as a "chat frequency". In my opinion, this is one area that needs addressing and I think that competent use of the radio should be a mandatory part of all flying training. I remember many years ago being sent solo on my first cross country by my instructor with no radio as he didn't believe they weren't necessary, how short sighted! Only my opinion of course.

Microlight 129.825

D.O.

Mad Jock and India Mike,

Come and visit us at Strathaven sometime.

We will let you look at what a range of modern microlights look like, and take you up for a flight - free of charge.

All in the interests of you seeing just what you are sharing the sky with.

Yes, many microlights - particularly weightshifts - have hand-held Icoms. Nothing wrong with that, they actually work pretty well. Although quite a few now have "proper" fitted dash-mounted radios.

Quite a few also have Mode S transponders too!

Speed-wise, UK weightshift microlights rule the world. The current world record holder is a GT450 - at 99mph (statute) - and the Quik is meant to be faster and the QuikR even quicker.

So even a 35kt headwind is not the hurdle it was when my wee Flash 2 alpha crossed the USA at an average airspeed of 50mph.

Why the hand-held radios? To get inside the weight limits for certification - based on an empty airframe plus occupants and fuel - a removeable hand-held is ideal. Then its weight doesn't count! It is more things like aerial location and wiring that cause problems, rather than type of radio.

Why most hand-helds illegal? Because the CAA didn't replace the approvals chap when he headed to Europe and Europe "forgot" to add hand-helds to their list of items they could approve. Aaaargh!

Why do some microlight instructors not use radios - well, some do not have radio licences. An FRTOL is not necessary for a NPPL microlight.

Also, in a weightshift, it is impossible to reach the dash from the back seat, and it is really hard to work a radio to change frequencies with thick winter gloves on.

Again, come for a flight with us and see what is what.

Chat frequencies? Can mean many things. 123.45 is meant to be very popular with some people - must be, because the CAA warn everyone not to use it as such!

"Chat" might also be used to mean a common frequency - such as the microlight one - which all agree to stay on, while one nominated person gets their fingers frozen changing frequencies to communicate with various agencies on their behalf and then report back to the group.

Let's get rid of "them and us" and get a bit of understanding here.

And if people still want to learn, a good point made at the safety day at Prestwick was upload a photo of your aircraft to G-INFO so controllers can get on the web and find out what a ABC123 registered GABCD looks like and what colour/s it is.

Could be helpful if searching the Scottish wildnerness. (rather than the invasion of privacy some see it as)

Dear Andy,

Welcome to Pprune.

Microlight schools can be found at North Weald - flying with Jet Provosts etc; or at Sywell, one of the biggest and busiest GA airfield in the UK,; or, closer to home, at Perth, where there is commercial flight training going on as well as it being Scotland's biggest GA field.

In fact, microlights can be found at almost every type of airfield in the UK that you will find GA, with the exception of major commercial airports such as Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester etc. And usually for the same reason you don't get GA at Heathrow -because of capacity issues and cost.

You can also find GA types flying from fields - such as the farmer on Collonsay who can't park his Cessna 172 on the island's airfield! - or many LAA homebuilt types.

Most of us want our flying - whatever type (jets, twins, SEPs or microlights) - to be affordable. So if you only are allowed to fly day VFR, why pay the cash to operate from an expensive radar-served airport?

Nothing worng with operating out of a farmer's field - and of course just because you have taken off from one doesn't mean that is the only type you can fly to!

This is a very sad incident indeed. My thoughts go out to the families and friends of those involved. I don't know why this thread has turned towards a discussion on radio frequency use, but there is no 'chat' frequency. The microlight frequency is used in a similar way to safetycom.
However, this is all irrelevant, as the aircraft in question was apparently on the appropriate frequency at the time. It is further irrelevant because I highly doubt that the frequency selected had any bearing whatsoever on this incident. That being said, I am a microlight pilot and I talk to Scottish Info (or the appropriate ATC) whenever I am on a cross country. Many of my fellow pilots do the same. Flying in the local area is a bit different, and for trips round the borders, most will just stay on microlight frequency.
As for radio range, it is the antenna installation that matters. When I first bought my aircraft, I temporarily used the handheld icom with the small rubber antenna, and got a range of perhaps 8-12 miles at 2000'. I now have a kingpost mounted antenna (same radio), and can easily get 50+ miles. I often listen out on Scottish or Edinburgh Approach, and the worst quality radio transmissions all seem to come from spamcans and the like.

I think there is far too much confusion over frequencies. All of which is perfectly legal.
Frinstance, I can depart Kingsmuir in deepest East Fife on Safetycom, then switch to Leuchars Mil or Scottish or Fife depending on whether I think the Air force may be a problem/weekdays/weekend. Fife training/para dropping. Anyone else can do the same.
So we have several a/c in the same area talking to several different people. How can this be called "communication"? Perhaps with my inexperienced 200 or so hrs I should know better? What is the view? Fisbang, thank you for your excellent service, but who was the PA28 talking to that closely crossed my path a few months ago? Leuchars (10nm away) said nothing, OCAS I agree, Injun territory, watch yr back & keep yr powder dry & all that was the advice I've had. But, who should I be talking to & shouldn't everyone else be as well?
I know it would involve even more regulation but could there not be some sort of sector freq that everyone "should" be on? Or am I confusing the issue?

Don't get me wrong - I have no 'them' and 'us' when it comes to microlights. See and avoid has worked well for me to the north of the Glasgow zone in particular. I'm not bothered by those not on R/T OCAS. They're quite entitled to skirt CAS without talking to the controlling authority. I'm on 'your' side there.

In the 4 years or so I've been instructing here (Glasgow and Prestwick) the microlighters have indeed operated as above - and as I say I personally don't have a problem with that. But recently I've heard more of them using R/T, particularly around the GLA class D. So they're 'integrating' more with the 'rest' of us. Standard of R/T is generally poor, but so what? It'll come with practice - and of course it's not just the microlighters with poor R/T.

I eavesdropped on microlight groundschool at Perth a few weeks ago during a tea break with my examiner, and was very impressed on the knowledge and understanding of weather that the instructor was passing on to his students and remember thinking 'no wonder these guys can operate up here safely'.

Perhaps the issue is we're not filing VFR flight plans in Scotland for what, after all, are flights over largely remote and inaccessible areas, especially if we get injured. I'm guilty of that myself when flying privately. I walk the hills and have often wondered how I could get off one if even only slightly injured, in the dark, in rubbish weather. If presented with a choice, radio or file a plan, I'd go for the latter up here.

This accident happened Friday 11th ( according to Press release ).

Police attend microlight incident


Published on Friday 11 May 2012 20:44


Police are dealing with an incident involving a microlight plane at a mountain range.
The incident happened at Ben More, near Crianlarich, Stirlingshire, at around noon.
A Central Scotland Police spokesman said inquiries were at a very early stage.
He said: "Central Scotland Police are currently dealing with a microlight incident at Ben More in Crianlarich. The incident occurred at around midday."
Police have not yet revealed details of who was onboard or their condition.


Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald

XRAYALPHA..That was myself that said that at the safety day.......on the Scottish Information Sector we have access to the GINFO Web site and yes indeed with so many new micro types appearing every year its good to be able to look at a picture of the aircraft we are speaking to.......I also think it a good idea if it's a flexwing calls me then on initial contact say you are a flexwing microlight rather than just microlight.

Sorry, I incorrectly used the term "chat frequency" when I should have said microlight frequency.

However I don't see the point of using it outside the environment of an exclusively microlight field. Is there really such a thing? What is wrong with safetycom?

Edited to add.. Ferryair, it happened on Saturday.

VFR flightplans are a waste of time for this kind of trip.

D.O.

xrayalpha I don't have a problem with microlights at all unless they cut me up on finals as they are apt to do and start bleeting but you were abusing finals if you have words with them.

My comments were more on the ethos of the instructors when they are teaching.

When we teach fixed wing nav ex's talking to scottish is part and parcel of the exercise along with a practise pan at some point.

I can fully understand down south why folk might not want to talk to London info who are saturated much of the time on nice days and to be honest you have plenty of alternatives from LARS units etc.

But come on Scottish info!!

Never heard a cross word out of them yet.

Always make things easy for students and don't put them under pressure.

No other agencys which would give you a better service (ie radar etc)

If you start your students talking to them from the start they will be comfy always using them.

Like it or not swopiv microlights not talking to scottish is a problem for the rest of us. The more people use the service the better picture all of us have of what traffic is going to effect us. And its all very well saying "but I listen in what more do you want". Most arn't like yourself speaking to info.

And its a particular problem around that perth area you can be told nothing known affect and it turns out there are 10 plus microlights bimbling around all of them.

Coming away from this accident and the fact hillwalkers found them. If scottish knows what they are doing and over due action is called either by other aircraft getting there or by friends and family calling the police at least the MRT have got a smaller search area to concentrate on. No it proberly wouldn't affect the out come of any incident. But at least your not putting the MRT at risk searching at night through vast tracks of land to try and find out if they are alive. Not to mention the cost of rescue helicopters etc.

Another fact which people might like to take into consideration is the state of your remains for your family. The longer you are out there the more scavengers will cut down the amount of bio mass for the coffin and more than likey your loved ones won't be seeing you again because your tongue,lips and eyes are the choice bits, just look at any sheep carcasses in the hills. So the less time until the MRT find you the less stress your family comes under never mind having to have a sealed lid on your coffin.

As xrayalpha rightly says microlighting is become more and more popular and the amount of it means that if it doesn't join in with the rest of us it causes a major safety risk.

I expect in the not so distant future there will be more microlight movements in the scottish FIR than spam cans. Habits need to be changed.

O and instead of reporting back to the group just everyone stay on scottish and one person book in as a formation. At least the the DF trickery can work if someone sends out a mayday if its fitted on scottish info freq (is it FBW?)

And to add i have never filed a VFR plan plan in my puff waste of time. But I do give info a shout if I am low enough and keep them updated if I change my routing.

Apart from anything else the more we use the service the more ammuntion the service has if the bean counters start talking about reducing it with an excuse due to lack of use.

@ d.o.:And what then is "safetycom" and when and why should one use it?

As I understand the UK situation, I tend to agree with Crash One: for any given place in airspace, there ought to be one and exactly one frequency that one can talk to, and that one should always be listening to. If inside controlled airspace: the controlling authority - be it tower or approach or whatever. Outside controlled airspace: the relevant "information" - except in or when approaching the traffic zone of a non-controlled aerodrome.

Why complicate matters?

Safetycom was supposed to be similar to Unicom in the USA. It's communication for airfields without a dedicated frequency.

Then some idiot decided to rule that it was only air to air and must not be used by anyone on the ground. Yes it is just the same idea as the microlight frequency.

If you want a frequency used from the ground Ofcom want a wad of cash from you and you must be licenced to use it. It's a shambles which has more than a little to do with empire building and money.

D.O.

Its meant to be for traffic around an airfield not for a group to use where ever they like on cross country's Gliders also have there own frequency for gliding sites which again is used as "there frequency"

There is also a myth out there that if you use the gliding and the microlight frequency you don't need a RT license.

The fact of the matter is with students, a big problem is they are scared to use the radio and speak on it. They think that who ever they are talking to is going to record and report them for ****e RT. When the worst thing that going to happen is that if a fellow student hears them they might take the piss. Give them to scottish to speak to honestly. They all have a knack of calming the student/insecure pilot down and getting the required info out of them without injecting a terminal fear of talking on the radio.

Maybe its because the instructors arn't that comfy speaking on the RT and don't want to sound like a chump in front of the students. So they tell the students not to talk if they can help it as well.

Well to be honest all fixed wing instructors are the same with only 200 hours under there belts. Give it a week or two talking to everyone and you will forget you were ever stressed about it.

I don't know what the plan was that these guys had. But there is no way they could raise Scottish unless they were at at least 5000ft in that area. Anything less and it is pretty spotty. And that is the case all the way until you get pretty near the coast on the other side. There are areas where it works at something around the height of the tops plus 1000 and there are areas it doesn't.

So fishbang and his colleagues are often trying to talk to people who cannot hear or need a relay - and within those constraints they do a very good job.

But at the endof the day this is very rugged countryside and you are responsible for what happens. I love madjock worrying about the state of my remains for the next of kin - that frankly is so far down my list of priorities I would never have thought of it!

Yesterday I went flying on a rough turbulent day. I did so in the full knowledge that I was going to remote and rugged places where if something happened I needed to pull off a very good forced landing and faced at best a very challenging walk. It sort of comes with the terriority - and frankly I love it. The scenery and freedom draws me and I enjoy it. Probably very much like the two unfortunate aviators.

Radio? it has its uses. Our Basic service generally in the UK is completely useless. Fishbang and his mates make it worthwhile in terms of search and rescue - but I usually fly far too low to make any practical use of it.

My alternative 'risk management' is a PLB - but I need to be at least conscious after my forced landing - cos there is no way I am messing about with it, if the engine fails or the turbulence rolls me over.

Whatever happened yesterday was very unfortunate, radio would in no way have prevented it. We had a incident very recently and a lot of people are saying the radio is VITAL, well for our incident it was being used - but it did not stop it occuring! It might even have contributed......

Flying in these areas can be dangerous. On an A to B flight when I'm just looking to 'get there' Scottish offer a good service. Yesterday they would not have heard me at all apart from when I chased some wave up to 6000.

Radio can be useful - but the way it is presently 'organised' in the UK seems designed to minimise that potential - and that creates a problem. Its main use would be traffic information - now of course explicitly banned under a basic service and to the south impossible to oftain when you need it.

But the bottom line is that whatever happened yesterday had nothing to do with radio. I suspect weather - but it would have been challenging to force land with the turbulence and wind gradients yesterday. We'll see eventually at least some suspicion of what happened from the AAIB.

Ah!! that explains why the UK knows a thing called an "air to ground frequency" which sounded so incredible to my naive continental ears that I once made a fool of myself by staunchly denying the actual existence of such "air to ground" frequencies.

I must admit that, having visited the UK driving perhaps 50 times over the last 35 years, I regret seeing it become more and more like continental europe - where are the miles and yards, where are the shillings and sixpence, gone is four-star petrol - but aviationwise, it seems to remain a peculiar place to this day. On the longer term I like that very much - nothing worse than to see the whole world turning a uniform grey - on the short term it adds to my reluctance to come flying across.

But of course we are now very far from the fellow aviators that passed away - RIP and my sympathy with those that will miss them.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/lawsandrules.pdf

Para 2.3 reads:

A pilot of a glider may act as a flight radiotelephony operator without holding an appropriate licence, if he/she does not communicate by radiotelephony with any Air Traffic Control Unit.

Note: An ‘appropriate licence’ in this context means a Flight Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence which may be issued as a standalone licence, or in conjunction with a flight crew licence. Further information may be found in LASORS Section B1 Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence on the CAA web site at

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | About the CAA

FBW – would you support making radio mandatory in Scottish airspace?

Rod1

Taken from BMAA Forum

Could we all remember that these are PUBLIC forums!
Please dont speculate! the AAIB investigation has just begun!
2 lives have been lost yesterday and these men were someones friends and colleagues,brothers, husbands, fathers and grandfathers.
If anyone here also posts on pprune would they please reinforce this message there as i find some of the comments inappropriate!
Thank you.
Obviously I watch all forums and have cross posted as emotions amongst the microlighters are running high on this subject.

dont overfil : I thought it was Saturday, but the Police attend microlight incident - Scottish Headlines - Milngavie Herald
Says Friday as reporting day !!!!! ( I guess their editorial datestamp is incorrect )

Well said. I picked this up this evening and frankly guys could not believe some of the stuff I was reading. 2 people have lost their lives, I was at Perth on Wednesday taliking to some micro light colleagues, some of which may well have been involved in this tragic incident. Some respect please.

PIREP: For what it's worth I was about 10m N of Ben More at FL080 (ca. 8700ft altitude) at midday heading West to Oban over about 7/8 cloud tops around 7,500'-8,000' with about a 15kt headwind.....

What's the issue maxred - there's nothing disrespectful here. Grow up

M-J, I haven't seen the new Scottish D&D cell but they certainly had DF in the old one so I can't imagine that it would be discarded.
Jan, the one frequency monitored 24hrs/day is 121.5. As I said above, I'm sure the new D&D Scottish will have it, Swanwick certainly does and both places always tell visitors that they would much prefer people to call them early than have to send someone to pick up the pieces. They do not care what terminology you use - they will happily speak to you in plain English rather than CAP 413 standard replies. Trust me, I know, I've been there and needed their help. :( The D&D Service is unique to the UK and is absolutely outstanding. :ok:

IM I am grown up, bit more than you frankly. Prattling on about the whys and wherefore of taliking to Scottish, or anyone for that matter. Revelation'plenty of people go flying talking to nobody. Not mandatory in uncontrolled airspace.

Personally, I don't find it disrespectful so much as off-topic - we simply don't know whether the use of radio is relevant to the accident yet.

I've nothing against going off-topic - I'm an offender on that front fairly often. But I have wondered whether the thread could profitably be divided in two.

[[[ very moderately because I don't want to offend anyone and apparently some earlier postings, mine probably, seem to have offended some]]]

Yes, and I appreciate one should call them early rather than late. But - on a general note, and without wanting to make ANY assumption about the present sad case - there have been situations where woe came up so suddenly that no time was left for ANY radio call. Radio is only the third point - aviate - navigate - communicate, remember - so it is important that our whereabouts should be known at all times. For this purpose, OCAS an information service seems best placed.

And BTW, for us microlighters the 24/day bit is rather irrelevant, we're not supposed to fly in dark.

abgd - agreed

Depends what frequency it is setup on might only be 121.5 DX

The discussion on a significant part of the scottish FIR VFR traffic not participating in the info service would maybe best spun off onto another thread.

And if they used the radio or not wouldn't have been a factor if they hit a down draft. I have had 70knts wash off in that area due to a wave down draft which equates to a sink rate of 1700ft a min in the aircraft I was flying at the time.

Ferryair,
I followed your link to the microlight forum and noticed one of your colleagues may have some information.

If you pm me I can pass details of how to contact the AAIB person dealing with this.

Sorry, I've got to say this but if someone on the other forum cannot take safety advice from FSB without thinking it is disrespectful it is very sad. Of course they may not know who he is.

D.O.