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In the pictures posted earlier in this thread, there is one pic of the plane inverted and it appears (to me) there is a small trail of smoke emanating from the lower mid-section of the fuselage immediately behind the trailing edge of the wing.
Can the real pilots among us kindly comment on this and tell me if it is indeed smoke? And if you believe it's smoke, why is it there... and does this have any bearing/impact on the cause of this very sad disaster (aside from the obvious fail of the trim tab in the elevator)? Thanks. |
Someone wrote this on another forum. I think it is a very sensible view. Having a fair degree of experience in aerobatics, I'll offer the following: For control failure to be the problem, it had to be both elevator and aileron failures. The gradual pitch up and following barrel roll was actually fairly leisurely and allowed plenty of time at the top to either push to sustain inverted flight or roll back to upright. The pilot did neither. The pilot is not visible in the posted photos. This is possible only if he has slumped hard forward or down and to the side. Given the restraining harnesses, both would be difficult. Again from the posted videos, there is no evidence of a sudden pitch up, spin, snap roll, or any other heavy gee-load inducing maneuver. There is a noticeable pitch up, but it is not a "snap" type pitch. It was simply the beginning of a barrel roll that ended vertical in front of the stands. I saw no evidence of last-minute maneuvering, either. Having said all that, video can be extremely deceiving. I was scored on several maneuvers that should have been zeroed because the video did not show what about half of the judges saw. The only thing less reliable than video is the human eye. Let the NTSB do their work. Conjecture is painful for those closest to the event Or am I misreading? |
There is some newer technology being used, I believe, on the German Typhoon fleet, that if I understand it correctly, would adapt to an aeroplane like this quite readily, but I don't believe that it's been made available to the civil world as yet. cheers, Jake. |
Unsure if this has been posted anywhere yet, but this is not the first time this has happened.
Around 1998ish another modified P51 lost its left trim tab, pitched nose up due to the highly nose-down trim, and the pilot suffered from GLOC. Thankfully he recovered in this case From a completely uninformed point of view, it looks like the loss of the left trim tab caused pitch up and a little left roll as the aircraft was inverted, directing it into the crowd. |
On the question of anti-g suits: conventional g suits require support from the aeroplane that whilst not impossible, would be very hard to achieve in a piston engined aeroplane. I don't think it's been tried.
There is some newer technology being used, I believe, on the German Typhoon fleet, that if I understand it correctly, would adapt to an aeroplane like this quite readily, but I don't believe that it's been made available to the civil world as yet. G |
Zorin 75
Those aren't ordinary Mustangs. Top qualifying lap this year was a 499 mph average... |
64 Years Racing
> Moose Peterson Aviation Photography « Moose Peterson Aviation Photography
The first time these two aircraft met was on the ramp on the Cleveland Air Races in 1947. Back then #74 Super Corsair and the modified P-51D Galloping Ghost were spring chickens. So this morning (15 Sep 2011) on the ramp at Stead Airport, home of the Reno Air Races, these two champs were reunited. Both aircraft look exactly the same as they did in 1947. Arron who is one of the marvelous photographers here can testify to it. He was at the races in 1947! When I heard this little piece of history I talked to the two owners and they graciously made them available for us to photograph. A very unique piece of aviation history! |
Galloping Ghost also reminds of the "A" model, or Apache, first delivered to Great Britain, and with the Packard engine. This makes it one of the first Mustangs built.
Evidence is the lack of a bubble canopy, which the original Mustangs did not have. The aerodynamics of the original lack the burble of the blister, and are slipperier; The new Grifon and Merlin more than made up for the sexy new bubble's drag. I think in 1947, the Ghost retained all her original wingspan? |
Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer
On the question of anti-g suits: conventional g suits require support from the aeroplane that whilst not impossible, would be very hard to achieve in a piston engined aeroplane. I don't think it's been tried.
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It's not smoke visible on the underside of the aircraft, it's steam, this article has some interesting information about the aircraft's cooling system:
A Ghost Story - How We Almost Made Reno | Florida's Premier Airpark - Leeward Air Ranch Power and reliability would come from Shanholtzer’s hot-rodded V-12 Merlin. In a big move, the drag reduction part of the equation came from removing the Mustang’s iconic belly scoop. The function of the radiator and oil cooler would be combined in a heat exchanger, and that would be placed in a tank of water/methanol. As hot coolant and engine oil flowed through the exchanger, heat would transfer to the water/meth where it would boil and vent overboard. The whole idea was to have zero cooling drag on the airplane. In fact, the only air coming into the airplane is fed to the engine. Since the late 1940s, The Galloping Ghost is only the fourth racing P-51 to undergo this surgery. If done right, it has some big benefits to offer. |
The photos showing separation of the trim tab. At what point of the accident are they taken? If they are in the later stages as they seem to be, doesn't that mean they are a symptom not the cause? The fact that at no point was power reduced along with the lack of 'evasive' maneouvres would seem to be fairly strong evidence for GLOC or some other form of pilot incapacitation wouldn't it?
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The Galloping Ghost is only the fourth racing P-51 to undergo this surgery. If done right, it has some big benefits to offer. The unlimited racers that win are all highly modified from their original form - bubble canopy removed, cooling scoop removed, wings shortened, aerodynamic tweeking and mechanical tweeking so that the Merlin's output is 3800 horsepower plus...twice that of the stock version. Video of Strega qualifying last year at 484 mph (499 this year). Water/meth vapor clearly visible. |
70 year old flyers.
Skol,you are talking from where the sun don't shine,I am a 70 year old flyer and I was doing spins over the Buckinghamshire countryside yesterday-absolutely awsom.:D
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Galloping Ghost also reminds of the "A" model, or Apache, first delivered to Great Britain, and with the Packard engine. This makes it one of the first Mustangs built. Galloping Ghost - Cleveland | Florida's Premier Airpark - Leeward Air Ranch |
Gulfcapt, are you thinking of Bill Odom's Begin the Beguin, which had the cooling duct removed too, but cooling pods located at the tips?
Come to think of it. Stiletto, I think, had the duct removed too, and the radiators relocated to inside the outer wings. |
When it happened in 1998
Description of similar event for P51 Voodoo Chile in 98.
Voodoo - 98 NCAR http://www.warbird.com/voodoo3.jpg Interesting link previously posted by OMGisthatJohn (and reposted here), containing an interesting aerodynamic discussion of mods made to Voodoo just prior to its event in 98, that might be insightful. I'm including a relevant quote from the article. Reno Air Racing: Voodoo Comes Home Weighing in at just a shade over 7200 lbs, the Voodoo sported several new modifications for 1998, including large wing fillets, a slick composite engine cowling, and a VERY smooth wing and fuselage. These mods resulted, however, in an aft c.g. condition which was most prominent at racing speeds. "With all the power that Buckwheat was carrying it kept wanting to pitch the nose up", Button explained. "It was something we were fighting all week. He kept putting more and more nose down trim into it until finally it [the elevator trim tab] got so far out into the airstream that it started to flutter. Once it went, it broke the elevator link and caused the pitch up." http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/at...g?d=1316248026 |
Not trying to start a catfight here, but...
The original P-51A was designed around an Allison engine developing 1150 hp, in a very rapid wartime design effort. The P-51B/D had a 1500 hp Merlin and the P-51H's engine could be boosted to 2200 hp with water injection. However, once the two-stage Merlin was introduced the aircraft was regarded as a high-altitude fighter - sea-level to low-level (5000 feet = Reno) speeds were not above 370 mph for any versions. 500 mph and 3800 hp is another kettle of fish. |
This photo is credited as "AP photo/Grass Valley Union, Tim O'Brien".
It looks photo-shopped to me. You can see reflections in the spinner of what appears to be the horizon, and 3 parked aircraft . http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/02_1024.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/02crop1.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17...ne/02crop2.jpg |
Lost in Saigon
I don't really want to get involved in this whole thread, however if one were looking for evidence of shopping' one might also question the smudge in the rear half of the cockpit canopy. One might also question the likelihood of someone being able to capture such a sharp image of an unplanned event. Also, most photos shown in media outlets portray the aircraft as moving from left to right (i.e. undercarriage towards the left of the image), this photo is the opposite. But I'm staying neutral, as it might just be a case of "right place, right time" (plus right camera, right lens, right photographer !). |
Folks
Pilot DAR has been talking about the subject of flutter which he understands.
This is what control surface flutter can look like on a Commanche. TwinCom.mp4 video by johnfarley - Photobucket I would guess the IAS here was about 150 max. Aerodynamic forces are dependant on IAS squared. So the forces at 150 kt are related to 22,500 and those at 500 kt are related to 250,000 namely over 10 times as much. The only way to stop such an oscillation is to slow down a lot. That takes time and may not be possible before structural failure. I have lost several good friends during flutter clearance testing. The level of vibration with flutter is quite unimaginable unless you have experienced it. It could easily dislodge a tailwheel from the up position. |
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