Stickandrudderman: I'm glad you enjoyed the OS aerobatic day last year. The aim was that it would become at least an annual event, rotating around the clubs that were represented, but unfortunately a medical problem has intervened this year and nobody else has picked-up the baton.

To the OP:
Important aspects are: a friendly and supportive club spirit, ground social activities (including dining-in nights), flying outings, bar, post-PPL mentorship, a range of aircraft types so that a visible skill progression is available, approachable and experienced staff, experienced FIs (500-1000 hours instructing as a minimum) who have a customer-focussed attitude and are doing it because they enjoy it and have a passion (not just hours building), and I hate to use the term but CRM (Customer Relationship Management for those who are lucky-enough not to have come across it before) is actually very important. Flying must be fun and exciting.

However, two controversial areas that I feel could be done better are the charging structure and the insurance excess liability. IMnsHO these should be transparent so that the customer knows what they are paying for and so there are no cross-subsidies.

An invoice should show:

• the aircraft charge at an assumed fuel cost
• the instructor/examiner charge (if any) for flight time
• the instructor charge (if any) for ground time
• additional landing fees (one is included in the aircraft charge)
• approach fees (if any)
• a fuel surcharge/refund based on the actual fuel price on the day

... by doing this the customer can see exactly what they are paying for, and only have to pay for things that they have used or benefitted from.

Although accidents are not common it seems normal for clubs/schools to absorb any accident costs; this can affect the viability of the business or the rental costs to other members. Insurance should be handled in the same way as hire cars. In the event of an accident the hirer should be liable for the insurance excess (or repair cost if minor) and should be required to put a credit card on file and sign an agreement. For an additional payment (either annual or per rental payment) the excess can be waived, like the hire car CDW. Nothing new needs to be invented because this is exactly as the car hire system operates.

HFD
(edited to fix several errors)

I have been a member of two professionally run flying clubs and one amateur one.

The first professional club was based at a large airport and had a superb airport location which, with excellent food, attracted many members of the public who bought trial flights. It operated the usual fleet of Cessna/Piper aircraft. The very good social side was maintained by a large group of supporters, most of whom did not fly except as passengers. Although it was great to be a member, I have no idea how financially viable it was.

This club was sold to a national flying training organisation who completely, and very quickly, destroyed the social side. I assume that this venture then failed because it was sold(given?) back to some of the old instructors and still exists but does not appear to have regained it's former glory which depended on the social activities and excellent catering.

The second club offers good catering, a building social side but, being more rural, has to extend it's catchment area to attract enough paying customers. It does this with a good restaurant which attracts many members of the public who buy trial flights.

It would seem that catering and social activities are the key to a successful club, especially if people have to travel to get there.

Obviously a core of regular spenders can be maintained if there are good facilities for private owners e.g. hangarage and engineering.

I would agree with this, Aerobat is OK for the odd loop, but not a fun Aeros machine, at the least go for an Aerobatic Robin, Slingsby or even A Pup 150. Citabria/Cap10/Bulldog will also do the job, but for aeros, PLEASE - not a C152!:=

Looking at it from the 'visiting aircraft' point of view, if I'm looking for somewhere to go, I check out whether it has a good caff/restaurant first, and by good I don't mean lark's tongues in aspic but reasonably priced home made steak pie and veg/chips, large mug of proper tea, that sort of thing. Sherburn has an excellent caff that does that sort of thing as does Sywell and Cosford. If it has then it goes on my list of places to visit, if it doesn't I wouldn't even consider it.

Thank you guys (and girls)
 

I will be trying to incorporate most of your responses;

In the last two months I have managed to do the following;

With regard to aircraft selection, yes a more aerobatic would be nice, but it has to be commercially viable. With two Cessna 150s, one an aerobat and one non, the idea is that the aerobat could do either PPL training or hairybatics, We have also now got a PA28, two PA38s as well as the Slingsbys.

I have ordered a new coffee machine!

I am organising a dawn patrol with a return patrol to a couple of local airfields,
the instructors I have now are all 15000 hour plus and examiners as well,
I have put new carpet in the clubhouse and repainted the walls, am building a flight sim using an old fuselage for winter rainy days (only ms flight sim and a 50" screen), I am organising an online flight booking system, and HAVE REDUCED THE HIRE RATES, I have also banned any upfront payments, got a credit card machine, have registered with three trial flight organisations to get a steady flow of trial flights and hopefully new members, we have installed wifi for members, and got a computer for flight planning and met with a printer ready to go in.

We have got FREE sweatshirts for the members ( donation to charity), and have got lifejackets, liferaft and an ELT for members to hire. We have also got some Airaware GPSs for the club aircraft. I have also added a ADF to one of the Tomahawks and PA28s.

Just need to find some weekend instructors if anyone knows of any good ones then please PM me. I will let all know how it goes. There is more of your suggestions to incorporate yet. I dont control the catering on site so cant do much on that front but have installed a snack bar of chocolate and crisps etc etc.

And finally- we managed a £12.00 profit last month!!!!!- Pity was I went out down the pub to celebrate and spent £30!. Hey ho!

Thanks again guys- any more suggestions really welcome.

website address?

You got that about right, except for one thing: the 25 year olds need to be female, size 8 :)

I think the one thing most/all schools/clubs do wrong is to push out experienced pilots, because they don't spend money there anymore, undermine the authority of the ever-wise instructors, and most likely divert the students' precious cash into their own PPL cost sharing arrangements.

If you can provide facilities/activities (flight planning, fly-outs, etc) where ex customers like that can participate, with their own aircraft perhaps, you will end up with a dynamic environment, rather than the sterile scenario found in most places.

And I am talking about the actual place of business, not the cafe next door where these people might hang out.

The problem is that the above runs counter to the usual business model which is to sell maximum hours, with an instructor in the RHS if possible.

You could also try charging less for ground running time (after the initial brakes-off moment). I know that going to "dry" is complicated but having punters paying £150/hr or whatever while they are waiting at the hold is inviting various kinds of bad behaviour, which I see every time I fly.

Are we allowed to know where this place is yet?

There is an easy way round this that a number of schools I know use - you use t.o and touchdown times then just add 5 mins either side to give a standard taxi time, this means that punters are NOT paying a fortune for time at the hold - it also means that they do not rush checks to save time/money.

Safety culture. Safe and sensible flying is encouraged and an ethos which emphasizes that the PPL is only the beginning. Opportunities for group fly outs to far flung places or just brush up lessons. Maybe a free lesson (only the instructor, not the aircraft) every 10-20 hours of flying or a mandatory one every six months. To do the fun stuff and things people forget (stalling, crosswind landings, PFLs) it can be made very good fun.

Home - Hinton Pilot Flight Training

Still got lots to do yet to the website inculding putting the online booking system on- but your comments as always would be welcomed. Personally I think the website I have made looking- well BORING!

:ugh:

Just an observation, but it looks to me from your website like your "club" is actually a flying school. I thought from your earlier posts that you were trying to achieve a positive club environment. I think you need to advertise that fact first with photo's etc. and then add a, "we provide flight training as well" section. Like I said just an observation. :)

Good point
 

Have updated site with your suggestions- see if that is better.

You guys say- we do!

Chris

It's also worth being pedantic about the accuracy - are you sure you offer IRs ;)? Good too to correct some misconceptions about the qualifying cross country, since it's a required stage in the PPL/NPPL courses but it isn't a formal test.

Good luck with the new venture! A couple of picky comments;

1. You are quite opaque on the website as to where this is located. (I'm assuming that it is Hinton-In- the-Hedges).
I would probably shout louder about that and have a map, by road and for arrivals by air.

2. Your 1 hour air experience flight seems to retail at a lot more that 1 hour dual in the same aircraft, which would make me (were I a potential customer) ask why? Also, they seem to vary, page-to-page.

3. Are you certain that you will be offering full IR training? I thought that this was a specialised field.....

IR training will be a lot easier (in terms of establishment issues) under EASA, with the FTO/RF distinction disappearing.

Not exactly - the distinction will in reality continue to exist, albeit under different names. CPL/IR/FI courses will still require a 3-6 month approval process, annual audits by Approvals Support staff, and a standard FTO setup will in practice be required to get the approval. Existing RFs will have to adopt a Quality Manual, Ops Manual, and essentially put their SOPs in writing as well as declaring who their instructing staff are.

It's actually not a bad thing for the industry when it comes to upgrading standards - EASA essentially want schools to maintain consistency and quality, a slightly odd concept to some in the industry!

"It's actually not a bad thing for the industry when it comes to upgrading standards"

I've got a bad feeling the additional cost will make some of the marginal clubs no longer financially viable.

If industry generally is anything to go by, a quality manual is not an issue. You hire a consultant and for a few k he produces an ISO9000 quality manual for you. After that, you ignore it... That is how ISO9000 runs. Nearly 20 years later, it is just a sham. It's a very "European" approach however.

The company is only as good as the people running it.

I guess madlandrover is right. But what about fees to EASA? Currently an FTO needs to pay much bigger fees AFAIK. This in turn hugely inflates FTO training fees.

Yes we do offer full IRs- both Single engine and multi- and we have our own examiner. With regards to the other comments there are again some good points- and I will make some more amendments. Many thanks guys and gals

Chris

Normally I hate websites that have automatic sound files, but what do you think to having the sound of radio traffic playing as a background track? It might help to evoke the atmosphere to a newbie. Just a thought............

Hi,

Wish you all the best.

Suggest you invest a grand in your website and get it done professionally:

Marcus Dalgetty at Balado spent 750 and got this:
Pegasus Microlights Scotland - Microlight Flying in Scotland

I think it looks great.

(I know our websites - especially the Strathaven one - need seriously updated, so not listing them. But, if you type certain key phrases into Google, they come up tops)

That is the other thing. Web optimise your pages. Don't need to pay anyone - indeed many "optimisers" don't know what they are up to, I feel.

That may mean rethinking your domain - ie flying_lessons_warwick .co.uk for instance. Think what the customers might look for, not what you want them to find. If no-one know that flying lessons are going on at Hinton, no-one will look for "flying lessons at Hinton". If someone is in Warwickshire and looking for flying lessons, they are more likely to search for "flying lessons in Warwickshire". I am sure you'll get my drift.

I suppose my Microlight Scotland - microlight flying lessons, trial flights and microlighting gift vouchers shows a fair bit of web optimisation - I think it comes up in the first 10 in the world for the word "microlight", for instance. Not the labels that appear when you "mouse over" photos. Not the miss-spellings of microlite etc in the photo mouse overs (you might want to look at "flite training" tucked in there, for instance.)

Finally, don't waste money on Yellow Pages, Thomson local etc!

(Keep it for flying, you'll need it at those prices!)

ps. Charge a fair bit more for trial lessons is the correct way. It is a lot easier to say to regular student Jimmy: see you next week at 10am, than it is to sell the voucher, answer questions, take a booking, answer all the questions, describe the route, answer the phone on the day for weather, meet and greet... etc etc etc. So you want paid for that.

(Yes, you do get the never redeemed vouchers. That is a plus. But no-one ever suggests that one should sell TFs cheaper than dual because of that!)

Web optimisation is largely dead now. Google is too clever and all the old tricks are obsolete.

What google does is measures relevance of the body text to the query, and measures how many people link to your site, etc. Nowadays, you can knock up a fairly specialised website and a few months later it will be the top hit on any remotely relevant query, despite having no meta tags, no "web optimisation", etc.

The best advice is to write a website with clear descriptions of everything, plenty of textual content (yes, people with money are mostly educated, despite appearances), written in good correct English, and avoiding Flash, big files, etc.

Paying google a few hundred quid a month to purchase key phrases like "flight training hampshire" is probably worth doing.

so, where is the club going to be based?

Just had a look at the site, nice and clear, good, full descriptions of what you are offering and everything that's included in the price...agree with wsmempson that it needs a map to show location.

For 'Trial Flighters' and newbies it would be nice to have the aircraft photographs captioned with their type e.g. '2 seater - Cessna 150' etc.

I'm tempted to visit, myself!

(also noticed a spelling mistake under Trial Lesson Gift Vouchers..."Hinton Pilot Flight Training, their staff and agents, cannot be held responsible for unsuitable weather, staff illness and unforseen technical issues effecting flight bookings." Should be 'affecting'.
:ok:

24/7
 

Drive up fuel by CC and lights (PCL) to cater for business use and winter ops.

In which case congratulations - I know from personal experience what the approval process is to offer modular IR courses, not a task for the faint hearted! Might it be worth posting your FTO number on the site as well, since Standards Doc 31 is some months out of date?

Just looked at the website, looks OK from the training point of view, though as others said, it could do with a tidy up from a good designer.

Despite the friendly flying club message though, the site seems all about training and nothing about the airfield. From potential visitors point of view, it needs airfield information, circuit details and perhaps weather links? A webcam is nice but not essential.

I think the website needs a little tidy-up but currently it is very quick, efficient, clear, and to the point, which is something that most intelligent customers appreciate, and that is exactly the sort of customer you want to attract ;)

A tip: unless you have a very good antispam service (I use Messagelabs, £400/year) I would present the email address as a graphic, not as machine readable text. I would also give people an enquiry form; this can be easily made spam-proof, and it ensures that you get reasonable information on the enquirer.

Yes; it needs pilot-visitor information also.

No exception here - even easier in fact, template manuals are available to be used in a "insert name here" process. Same with the Operations Manual requirements, most Flying Order Books or similar will suffice with a few changes. Costs? Yes, that could be trickier. Much like the recent re-registration of RFs at £100 a go after years of it being free. Sadly the cost will have to be passed on to the customer one way or another, the margins in most flying training simply aren't high enough to absorb excess fees - our own PPL training has a £1/hour margin, fortunately it's a sideline we rarely do! More painful were our £4000 FTO approval fees...

If Carlesberg made a flying club...
 

It would probably be as tasteless, dull and disgusting as the beer they brew. I'm thinking it would be something like the set up at Blackbush where that large training organization reside.

However, if a proper English brewery that produces proper English ale were to do a flying club.... It would be White Waltham.

Bolinger??! Bolinger my :mad::mad::mad::mad:!!!!

A good flying club should have the atmosphere of a pub with an airfield in the beer garden. It should have views of acres of lush green grass from the club house windows and have the sweet sounds of radial engines or Merlins starting up and the smell of oil and leather and..... Oh and the sound of whining pilots in the bar and amateur engineers swearing in the hangars.

Sorted.

I hear "Hinton Para" on the radio all the time. Is there much of a conflict there?

Charlton is a lovely village with a great (when I lived there!) pub. It may be worth including that.

Are you welcoming visiting pilots now? If so I will come over at the weekend!

(Wish I still lived in Charlton.)

I fly out of Hinton...."Hinton Para" is not a problem. We all talk to each other and it works well...

Where the "bar staff" refuse access to non-flying visitors? Err, I don't think so:hmm:

Too right, can't let the rif-raf in! ;)

Large Ape,
The term is riff-raff and I think that accurately describes some of the membership.:rolleyes:

Im not sure about riff raff- Im an licenced aircraft engineer which is generally considered by some to be the lowest form of life. So I suppose with me in there I have have started the standard pretty low and we can only improve.

"Test Flew" our new "sim" today which consists of a 42" TV, two sticks etc all coupled up to anew gamings computer running MS Flight Sim all in the front end of an old Katana Fuselage front end. You actually sit in the old cockpit and have the Screen in front of you. Intend installing it in the clubhouse for rainy days!. Just something of a bit of fun. Gonna charge £1 in the cancer research tin for a go!

:O

My VFR flight guide is 2010.

Who do we call for PPR now? I'll pop down tomorrow!

As a WW member it's not a term I have to use very often, o' Flappy one. I generally get my butler or his assistant to deal with such issues, since one doesn't like to get ones hands dirty shooing the great unwashed away. You'll have to excuse me I'm going for a massage at 7 followed by a coiffure....

Hi there, looks like more than one of us has been producing a free solution. Take a look at ours and see what you think. It is and will always remain free and for the good of the community.

Here is our welcome letter:

Just to let you know that with immediate effect our new booking system for for aircraft/groups/instructors is available. You will need to login and create an account as the administrator of your group and then add all the other pilots and planes and instructors. Its a painless process and it will will send all your pilots an email along the way to tell them they have been activated.

Like many of the people who will use this system I was dissapointed when the booking system we used, GoBoKo announced a charging structure that wasnt cheap so I have invested the first couple of years of what I would have spent to write our own booking system which does all what the previous one did. In addition I am providing the service free of charge to the aviation community so nobody else has to pay. The address of the new system is Aircraft Bookings and you can find out more about the system at Welcome to the Free Aircraft Booking Sytem - FABS

If there are any problem with the system please let me know as it is hot off the press so we may have missed something.

It is pretty self explanatory to use.

1. register the group and main admin pilot

2. Add a plane or planes

3. Add pilots

Thats it. You are ready to go.

You can add bookings by clicking on the start time and then the end time in the calendar or you can also add them by selecting the times under the calender and you can select the end day if it later than the start day of the booking.

You can also book instructors by ticking a box while ticking a plane. We will hopefully add later today so you can book instructors without the need to book a plane for groundschool etc.

We will try to include any suggestions people make although as it is free there is no promises. Just ask nicely and we will see what we can do.

Please give me your feedback. [email protected]

Remember the only payment is that you put a link on your website if you have one back to our siste to help it get found by the search engines and so other pilots can track us down. Please link to Welcome to the Free Aircraft Booking Sytem - FABS (the website) not aircraftbookingsystem (the actual booking system)

Thanks

Stuart