N850TV impounded at BHX
This TBM850 arrived yesterday afternoon and - according to eyewitnesses - landed over the top of a FlyBE Dash8 which had lined up on 15.
Today, there are snow ploughs parked in front of and behind the TBM - guess the CAA want a word with the pilot... |
I would be cautious at jumping to conclusions. Was the TBM issued a landing clearance? Was the Dash cleared to line up? Was the TBM instructed to Go around? Why didnt the TBM go around regardless seeing the Dash on the runway?
Why clear the Dash to line up with another aircraft on short finals? Maybe Dash was ready immediate but then wasnt or problems on departure clearance which delayed an immediate? Was the Dash cleared to line up after the landing and was a bit too quick on the after bit which appeared as if the TBM had flown over the top? Why block the aircraft from departing? Usually only done if money owed or a serious fault on the aircraft with a determined to go pilot? The pilot would be at fault but that would not stop another pilot flying the TBM out? Seems odd all round would be interesting to know more. Pace |
Heathrow would have been unable to get the snow ploughs into action that quickly!
|
Ah but we would at Gatwick ! :ok:
|
Yes, definitely need to know more.
Not many TBM pilots are mugs. Does the CAA have the power to confiscate an aircraft, ahead of any action against the pilot? I thought this is not possible in the UK (unless pursuing a debt). The French can do it (but the French can do anything). |
Can't seem to find anything in the news about this and seeing as how it's newsworthy when Ryanair tell you to sit at the back of one of their 737's due W&B you'd expect a story like this to be out there; if the rumour is true.
|
I cannot confirm the initial allegation - hence the 'according to' prefix.
I can confirm the snow plough part from my own observations - they were certainly there when I arrived for work at 06:30 and were still there when I left. The TBM is based in Italy and had planned to depart today, BHX doesn't usually move this quickly for unpaid fees - could a TBM run up a bill for landing/handling/overnight parking that its worth blocking it in within 12-16 hours of arrival? |
An old unpaid bill is a possibility.
This sort of thing can also easily happen accidentally, as airport billing / admin practices are occassionally incompetent. I have had several cases of duplicate billing for stuff paid at the time; they climbed down upon getting a proof of the payment (I keep the stuff for a year nowadays) except in one French airport case where I had no proof so just paid them again... |
IO540
Lille by any chance?
|
La Rochelle.
However, IME, East Midlands / Bournemouth (accounts done by the same office) mess up more invoices than they get right (largely due to the bizzare Bournemouth Handling setup) and I bet these two have a long list of "drive-aways" who don't actually exist. To be fair, it can be hard to track down some planes and I did explain to one office lady how to use google to track down where people are based so the bill can be sent there... |
S78s initial post is completely true :uhoh: except they were snow brush tractors impounding the a/c instead of snow ploughs.
After a chat with 'the authorites' the a/c departed yesterday afternoon. A full investigation will no doubt be under way of which 'PACE's post highlights possible questions. |
One point to consider in a landing over?was the Dash lined up on the numbers?
Often an aircraft is cleared to enter and line up after the landing aircraft. Once at around 50 feet to touchdown the pilots eyes are fixed on the touchdown point, He is bringing the power back to idle or a low setting and preparing to land. At 50 feet he may not be aware because of the wings obscuring his view of activity from his right or left. It is quite possible that the Dash was lining up behind the landing but did so prematurely meaning that the landing aircraft past over him or appeared with slant angles to do so. I find it alsmost impossible to comprehend that a professional pilot seeing a passeneger aircraft on or near the numbers would fly over the top and land? Firstly from his own perspective but secondly ATC would have told him in no uncertain terms to Go around probably a number of times. They would have also told him to expect a late landing clearance if there was a likelyhood of a delay/conflict with a departing aircraft. As previously stated I will be interested in the findings of this event??? But cannot imagine it will be anything like it appears in the opening posting. |
Near miss for FlyBe at BHX 12/01/11
It is being reported by my local news paper the there was an incident involving a Flybe aircraft and a private plane at Birmingham on Wednesday afternoon.
If accurate it sounds as though this was a fortunate outcome for all involved. |
This Tocata is registered in Delaware to Wise, Inc. Trustee. A single engine Turboprop operating in Europe is not generally going to be flown by a novice. As any info is yet to be forthcoming, I don't assume the "Blocked in" has to do with any thing. This is an ATC deal. If not controlled, the landing aircraft has ROW...........imo.
|
Ahhh Brummygit, its nice to see the press accurate as ever. As usual wrong airplane in the picture, but makes a change from the 146! :mad:
|
The source, who did not want to be named, claimed the Flybe pilot “had his head between his knees” bracing himself for a crash, adding: “He estimated the planes were inches apart" |
Pace
With respect you make a number of assumptions. Aircraft impounded pending AAIB investigation. As ever we shall leave the investgation to the professionals and await the outcome of the enquiry. BGG ;) |
The source, who did not want to be named, claimed the Flybe pilot... |
BHX radar (primary) has been patchy at best recently with an ongoing radar upgrade, or unservicability.
There is some possibility this was an aircraft failure of some sort, power, radios etc... the crews might just have been carrying on, expecting the waters to part for them. Or runway confusion? Coventry isnt that far away.... |
Flybe aircraft told to line up, with another aircraft on 5 mile final (regular occurence at any airport). Comms lost with aircraft on approach.
|
JAR
Potential occurrence or fact? |
Flybe aircraft told to line up, with another aircraft on 5 mile final (regular occurence at any airport). Comms lost with aircraft on approach. Or... the Flybe may have been given a line up after clearance and our infringing ac may have been number 2 on approach and after the landing of number 1 Flybe mistook it for his conditional subject?? Crossed wires somewhere no doubt... will be interesting to find out what actually happend. |
...I should have thought that the landing ac would have followed some sort lost coms procedure... PM |
But would the landing ac have been given a landing clearance if the flybe was told to line up? I don't think short finals makes a difference in the absence of actually being cleared to land: No landing clearance, no landing unless an emergancy landing is being conducted IMHO. Also, was the landing ac flying an instrument or visual approach? 5 mile final is roughly around the OM is it not? Is this 'short finals'?
Of course, all of the above is just my own views as a lowly PPL holder, but I am quite interested in this case. |
You would like to think any pilot with an inch of sense would have gone around. I find its unlikely the landing aircraft didnt see the Dash its not exactly a microlight! However if I was of fire or had to land asap for some reason I would consider a land over. But not for comms failiure!
|
Some facts for you all.
TBM went to ground freq. instead of tower when instructed. TBM was never cleared to land. TBM was doing an NDB/DME approach with a 6 Deg off set. Flybe crew were cleared to line up by tower. If the TBM had have been on the tower freq. I expect he would have been told to continue the approach there is one aircraft to depart. Finally the flybe crew would have had the TBM on TCAS and lining up infront of an aircraft on 5 miles is the norm at BHX. Some posts would be suprised for a professional pilot to see an aircraft on a runway and land over it. Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up. And when I say overloaded I don't mean heavy.;) The facts are that the TBM pilot didn't see the dash and DID fly directly over it and land. Simples How do I know all this? Simples |
@redflyer
Well, I'm listening! How do you know all that? @ryan5252 ...and don't call me Shirley..... (sorry, couldn't resist) |
if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up. Let me let you into a few dirty little secrets of flying planes (which you wouldn't know unless you fly them, of course, and I don't mean C152s) In a plane with even 25% of the cockpit automation of a TBM850 (and I flew a brand spanking new 850 with a Socata factory instructor a few months ago, and I have 1100hrs in another little GA plane with about 75% of the cockpit automation of the TBM) any instrument approach is a doddle. An NDB/DME approach is (in real IMC) flown with autopilot guidance along the NDB inbound track, with the guidance coming from a GPS. All the pilot does is VNAV, and speed control, flaps, gear, comms. Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't). As for the rest, if it's true he should not have landed without a landing clearance; that is clear. But there could easily be more to the story. He might have been at his alternate, in which case a landing might not be optional. There is also the IFR lost comms procedure. When exactly did the other aircraft line up, and was it on the runway, or holding short of it? Just don't go slagging off single pilot GA :ugh: |
...as long as you don't go slagging off GA pilots handflying on
raw data in IMC. :-/ |
All the pilot does is VNAV, and speed control, flaps, gear, comms. Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't). |
Pilot flying/handling pilot must fly the approach with only sole reference to the ADF. The non flying pilot/pilot monitoring is however allowed to display the FMS overlay on their own individual EFIS display....purely to monitor the ADF/FMS tracks and call out any discrepencies that may be apparent. :ugh: |
guess whoever wrote the ops manual is really proud of that. Lenin (living in the same era) would have been proud of him - except Lenin was a lot more pragmatic. And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded. |
or click the "PAUSE" button ...?
|
Lets assume I am a pilot. Lets assume I work for flybe. Let's assume I know the crew. Hey what do I know. The aaib investigation will be out in a few weeks.
|
Aha - busted! Any real pilot would know that it'll take at least a year for an AAIB report to come out! ;)
|
Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't). And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded. |
How do I know all this? Simples |
Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up. |
If Redflyer is a Flybe pilot he/she should not be writing this kind of garbage about IFR GA. This kind of prejudice doesn't do anybody any good, although it isn't uncommon within the "gold plated pilot" community and probably explains a lot of regulatory difficulties elsewhere to which nobody will own up publicly.
A TBM850 has better kit than a Dash 8, in all probability. Of course multi crew ops are safer than single crew ops but what he/she wrote is just garbage, in the context of an appropriately equipped aircraft. The C152 someone might do their IMCR in is something else, but this was a TBM. If you T,I,M the navaid before starting the procedure whilst flying the FMS track then any discrepency should be obvious prior to descending below MSA. |
Lets assume I am a pilot. Lets assume I work for flybe. Let's assume I know the crew. |
All times are GMT. The time now is 13:59. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.