Flying Airways in the UK?
 

Soon I may finally be able to file airways regularly in the UK using my FAA IR and an N-reg aircraft. However after doing my IR in 2008 and coming back to the UK looking over the airways charts has left me slightly bemused; for example, one regular flight that I might want to take would be from the south of England to Scotland, on inspection of the route it seems that from 0700-2000hrs airway N601 has a MEA of FL140, making it impassable without oxygen. In general a lot of the airways seem to have quite hight MEAs compared to the US, I guess because we have mainly class A only airways and only put them where commercial flights need them. Is there any way round this though? Is it possible to file an IFR flight plan that is only partly in the airways with some parts dipping below out of CAS?

I've sent you a PM with some trip writeups, but yes, in short, European IFR flight is difficult without oxygen - not because you cannot generate routes at FL100 or so but because flying that low places you squarely into IMC which (most of the year) means likely icing conditions and almost inevitable turbulence of varying severity.

The name of the game is therefore a climb to VMC on top. In my book, this also means that the flight is scrapped if the cloud tops are too high - unless you have a solidly deiced aircraft.

OTOH there is a significant pilot population who "just fly" but I am not among them. The smarter ones are doing it in deiced planes, and preferably without passengers :) Obviously, the well funded ones are doing it in pressurised planes, at FL200 plus.

Working out routings (there is an automated tool for it so you don't need the SRDs) works at FL070 but you get poor routes. FL100 is better. FL140 is better still and above that there is very little to gain except in the Alpine region where you need FL160. Then next big improvement comes at FL200+.

Contact Tower

The answer is YES. On the flightplan put the airways you can stay in ie NXZ WAL then the bit you cannot stay in but are flying under put DCT instead of the airway to the next intersection/ point where you hit the airway again.

One example is flying from Scotland arriving at DCS you wont pick up CAS at lowish level until 20 North of WAL. For that section you will get a deconfliction service from warton and get handed back into CAS North of WAL

In the remarks column put IFPS Reroute accept so you dont get the flight plan thrown out and accept whatever routing you get. Airbourne its then easier to negotiate your routing you want.

The other way is on the flightplan to put the higher level to keep in the airway to get the plan accepted but then airbourne ask for lower as in reality you have no intention of flying the higher level.

Pace

You do not have to be in controlled airspace to fly IFR and you do not have to fly IFR in controlled airspace. The problem you may have, will be if you fly a route where you drop below the base of CAS and then intend to re enter CAS as its base lowers, you MUST obtain a clearance to do so. Do not assume that filing a flight plan automatically gives you clearance to enter controlled airspace. Normally itis not a problem BUt it would be prudent to have an alternative routing in case the controller says those unwelcome words 'remain clear of controlled airspace' and you are IMC at lower levels!

Well, yes, here one just has to assume that the OP is familiar with the difference between "Eurocontrol IFR" and UK's "informal IFR in Class G", and also how the two can sometimes interact in bizzare ways....

Eurocontrol IFR in the UK can be tricky at low levels (anything below about FL140) because if you - inadvertently - file a route which has an OCAS section, you can be dropped out of CAS, London Control's service is terminated, you get handed to London Info, and then you are stuffed because your IFR clearance has been binned and you won't get back in unless LI negotiates a new clearance with LC, which could take some time - or never if they don't feel like doing it. It does catch out foreign pilots, occassionally.

That's interesting, it had occurred to me to do what Pace suggests, but I was afraid of what IO540 and bingofuel warns might happen as well.

I take it Pace you know that what you suggest is acceptable to ATC? Also what does "PPSC Reroute accept" actually mean?

I have found that when I drop out then back in (going up North or back from Ireland) that the Information service normally includes in the initial response a request for eta at the joining point and tells me they are arranging my cas entry. If they don't I immediately give them my entry point as in 'nxyz ifr fl100 re rentering CAS at GECKO at 17) and information then sorts it.

This doesn't work when you are dumped as in 'descend to altitude 4500 cleared to leave CAS by descent'

IFR Flying Tips
 

My view is that you would be better off filing non airway IFR in the UK. Dropping in and out of Class A is painful and when you want to join again you will end up going round in circles. Unless you can stay in the low airways en route system it really is not worth it.

I tend to agree, and this is what I do (rarely fly Eurocontrol IFR around the UK). Depart VFR and disappear in the nearest cloud, no problem.

But flying around at 2400 / 3400 / 4400 ft / FL054 / FL064 etc ;) is often not a lot of fun. ..

Take a nice summer day with a lot of nice fluffy white stuff and you have a very rough flight. Going airways at FL100-150 is a good way to deal with it - which is precisely why one does it around Europe. One could fly "VFR" (OCAS) around Europe too, down in the muck.

The other example is winter flying, when the 0C level is close to the ground, and there is just a thin cloud layer. If you fly "UK VFR" (perhaps in IMC) then being below CAS base you will end up in icing conditions, possibly for hours. This is OK in an Aztec with boots (which after all has another incentive ;) to fly "VFR") but most GA planes are not de-iced. Whereas an airways flight will transition to VMC in minutes and sit there enroute.

<<you do not have to fly IFR in controlled airspace>>

You surely do in Class A?? Or have regs changed.

OK. Thanks very much for all your replies, it seems to me that this is something that can be done but has the potential to be a bit difficult sometimes, I can only try and see I suppose. Longer term I'll just use oxygen.

If you file your flight plan at a reasonably-equipped airfield (such as, say, Biggin Hill), ask the tower to file it for you. If they get any objections or reroute requests from Brussels the tower will be able to advise you how better to route your flight.

Contact Tower

You specifically mentioned London Scotland :) I have a lot of time in light twins in those areas. 10540 is correct in warning you about icing in anything but the height of summer unless your aircraft has proper deice/anti ice.

having said that there are two elements.

Firstly putting in an acceptable flight plan which wont be thrown out and secondly the actual route and levels you will fly or negotiate with ATC when you are airbourne and in the system.

Putting in a flight plan IFPS Re Route accept means that if there is a mistake you are happy for a correct route to be put in for you. This saves the plan being coughed out, but now their is more resistance to IFPS re route changes and sometimes even with that your plan can be kicked into touch.

In years of flying I have never been refused re entry into the airways further along the line.
ATC know your predicament in a non pressurised aircraft and are more than helpful as they are with levels and more direct routings.

I can even remember flying back from scotland at night through a front. On leaving the front near Glasgow although the aircraft had dealt with the ice there was a lot on the airframe and the cruise speed was low. I asked to be allowed to drop out of the airway down to FL60 so that i could drop off the ice, climb back up and continue. That request was approved and I maintained radio contact with the airways controller.

Without going into details there are tricks we play to work the system to our advantage. This happens in low airways and high airways both in twins I fly and in jets I fly in the high airways and these are known and used across the board by those who live in the airways system.

Take care and other than the summer beware in a non deiced aircraft. It also helps to carry oxygen if you have to comply with the higher levels you may have filed ;)

Pace

Of course A is IFR-only (the irrelevant SVFR case excluded). What he was referring to is the ability to get around the UK pretty well in Class G, VMC or IMC, and IMC=IFR :)
I think things have moved on since ..... when....the 1950s... ??

I think this is meant to be written as "IFPS reroute accepted". This tells IFPS (Eurocontrol) to not generate an automatic REJ but to pass the failed FP to a human operator who, subject to workload and other human conditions ;) will have a look at it. I've been there, to the very desks where they do this. It's a manual process - dragging routes on PC screens.

There is no guarantee they will do this (the IFPS manual says so plainly) and indeed on one of the times when I was unable to get a route to work (last time was 2007) and was in a real pickle they would not assist, and as I was at an airport with a 5-day PPR for both arrival and departure I had to cancel the next flight and go elsewhere, and this was a really major problem.

They will also not fix up routes which are drastically wrong.

The other thing is that the modified route needs to be somehow communicated to the pilot so he knows what he should be flying. In theory this is the responsibility of the office which files the FP. This introduces certain issues because by the time this happens he will be in/near the plane........ homebriefing.com send you an SMS or email but this will contain the airways-name route and you then need to generate a plog from that so you have the individual (non-airways-name) waypoints to load into the GPS... AFPEx do not have such a facility (yet) so that service is best used only for known-valid routes.

I would therefore not rely on using this remark. Better to use the available tools to get the route right, file it without the reroute option, and go.

I think that the odd UK airways system works because most of the traffic is jets which go up to FL2xx right away. The rest of Europe is much more straightforward for IFR GA, fortunately. Also it appears that Scotland is a lot better than the south :)

10540

My apologies typo error and brain fade :hmm: Of Course IFPS. :O (rectified) It does still work 70% of the time and not always in the right place to have all the wizzard tools at hand.... so still useful... and for the small effort to put it in a safeguard against getting the plan chucked out.

Pace

Pace..Shock horror surely not :)....dont admit to that with us Air traffikers listening in!! :cool::cool::cool:

I certainly appreciate you sharing your experience :). On the point of icing yes I'm very aware of it, my original question was quite theoretical in the sense that it was only about airspace and not about the overall subject of actually flying from A to B in reality, which of course requires consideration of many things... with icing being one of the more important ones.

IFR Flying Tips
 

I believe it is worth you joining PPL-IR Europe you will get lots of very useful help on flight planning and operating in Euro airspace. Asking the tower to submit your flightplan is ok but I strongly suggest you verify the route first on cmfu.eurocontrol. The site is a bit non user friendly at first but it will really help you to build confidence by getting the flight plan accepted first time. I use Flitestar and I have never got a plan accepted when just using the programme output but by using the veryfier you will learn the accepted routes as around Europe if you are flying north south from the uk or in the uk there are not that many airways to choose from at low level it is the entry and exit points that can be confusing.

Fisbangwollop

How many free pints have you been offered for a direct destination ? and whats a flight level or two between friends ;)

How many calls have you had claiming severe icing or turbulence for a higher level maybe a 20 degree left or right due severe weather which just happens to be direct destination and the list is endless ;)

Anyway isnt it different in Scotland? spend all your time in airways avoiding microlights and watching the local pastime of "tree landings" :rolleyes: wonder how Mc Biggles is getting on?

Pace

I've popped out of an airway in the past where there has been a change of base level. I continued on the navaid as if I was still in the airway and then I just requested that ATC co-ordinate my return back into the airway when the base stepped down again.

If I recall correctly they requested an ETA, and I was reminded to "remain clear of controlled airspace". Approx 5-10 minutes before reaching the airway I was given a new SQUAWK code (classic sign that you are about to be passed to another frequency), I was passed to the agency controlling the airway who promptly cleared me in. Easy!

If my memory serves me correctly I was flying north from Exmor in the N864

Other worthy point of note was that the SQUAWK code given to use when I re-entered the airway was the same as was issued on departure from Exeter, this has happened on a number of occasions. I've always had first class service from ATC in terms of airways flying.

I would also re-iterate the icing points, be careful and make regular icing checks, both visually of the airframe, spinners, OAT etc and also watch for a reducing IAS. Always have a plan B whether it be a descent (obviously with terrain in mind) or en route diversion.

If you dont do it already consider making a note of the freezing level on departure as you climb through it. This will change as you travel through a changing airmass but I've often found it more accurate than the forecast levels. You will then know what level to request a descent too if you need to shed some ice.

I've descended before to shift some ice and requested a level based on the zero degree level I had noted down during my departure, and despite it being over an hour later it was still very similar and I flew along at the level that was just above 0 and cleared it up quickly.

Having this information will hopefully reduce your workload at what can already be quite busy by not having to request further descent or descending more than you need to.

Apologise if the icing lesson seems to come across as a lecture I only intend it as friendly advice :ok:

I've done midlands to north scotland sometimes airways and sometimes IFR outside controlled airspace (mostly, just negotiated clearance when required), and to be honest it's a lot less painful to do the latter if you carefully choose the route. As the other posters have said, the icing issue does not suit a non pressurised aircraft at all for this route. I found it much better to stay low, below the freezing layer with not too much bitting and bobbing between airspace.


edited becuase I've had a beer

UK airways
 

I am in agreement that IFR OCAS is usually the most expedient way to do IFR in the UK.
My aircraft is deiced with a service ceiling of FL200. Not worth climbing anything like that high unless you intend to do a long trip.

Flying from Plymouth my usual airways joining point is BHD at FL90 - this is OK for south and North destinations, but there is no real east-west option at a reasonable altitude unless you want a detour over the Brecon Beacons (no fun in the winter).

After figuring the above out another wakeup call for me was being treated like persona non-grata by Solent radar (no surprise there) at night in IMC having filed an IFR flightplan from London back to Plymouth. I had no idea that they were not aware of my flightplan.
Basic message was "stay out of our airspace we are not interested in you. Freecall en route..."
How about a nice warm squawk to make me feel welcome, comfortable and safe guys?

SB

Yeah; you discovered another UK airspace secret ;) IFR flight plans filed below the magical "enroute airspace" go basically nowhere enroute, and no IFR clearance is maintained. A lot of people have been caught by that. Solent is just a bit of Class D around an airport or two. To get a continuous IFR clearance in the UK one needs to file for something like FL120 or higher, to be sure it will "stick".

I think the main problem associated with flying in IMC outside CAS in the UK is, as been inferred above, the lack of reliable radar cover.

Perhaps one of the few areas of UK life not under constant surveillance from nuLabor's nanny state goons!

It is not illegal to fly IMC without any radar cover or even without talking to anyone - but it's perhaps rather foolish. Hence the attraction of lower level airways to those appropriately qualified flying suitably equipped aircraft.

It appears foolish but the IMC midair stats (zero, zilch, none, nil, since WW2) do not support such a fear.

Sure, you need an IR etc. But it doesn't work too well in the UK, especially the south. The lowest levels at which one can get LTMA crossings are around FL100 plus. People who succeed in filing a Eurocontrol routing at FL070 or so (and it is possible) end up either vectored all over the place, or get dropped out of CAS at the first convenient (to ATC) opportunity.

Also if you fly at say FL070 you don't have to go very far away from London to find yourself in Class G, and then the service from London Control will most likely be terminated, your IFR clearance is in the bin, and you have to continue OCAS.

As many pilots have discovered, you can fily flight plans via Eurocontrol even lower e.g. FL050. These are meaningless and end up in meaningless flights - forced below CAS, probably from the start.

IFR OCAS works just fine in the UK ... BUT, it is based on a different operating assumption than the US.

American's believe airplanes will hit each other or the ground if they don't follow routes (Victor airways) and receive a separation service. In the UK the volume of IFR OCAS traffic is low, the country is flat, and the routes are random. All of this means no aircraft in IMC has hit another (since one incident in WW II) even though separation is only provided on an adhoc basis. The CAA/NATS structure is geared to providing ATC in a limited set of Airways (defined for commercial traffic) and approach areas - and a very basic level of service OCAS. Once you accept Big Sky Separation works just as well as ATC for typical OCAS flights you will find the UK system actually seems to work pretty well.

MM

I dont know whether you remember the long thread sparked by my near miss with a glider in IMC in a twin? It passed so close I saw it in the clouds :{

The fact is we all think that IMC OCAS is the world of small light GA. That airpace is also inhabited by commercial aircraft right up to A320 s and 737s.

All will be fine until the day the unthinkable happens then all change

I would certainly make it obligatory to have a transponder with altitude reporting to be legally allowed to cloud fly

Pace

Yes I saw the thread. If the rules were being written today, everyone would have 'ADSB' and for most en-route airspace pilots would self separate with ATC coordinating traffic in busy areas.

The core fact for FAA trained pilots to understand is the FAA infrastructure doesn't exist here - you either live with it or don't fly in IMC OCAS (as you can't count on a Radar Deconfliction Service).

In the US an operation of this sort would have your ticket pulled due to reckless endangerment (i.e. the regulatory belief you will hit someone or something if you fly blind with no separation/coordination). The CAA clearly have had a view for years this is a reasonably safe activity (and for what ever reason, the accident rate (of 0) doesn't refute this view). I do recognise this may simply be due to very few people operating IMC OCAS with no service (like the Concord - a very small fleet so 0 fatals until the day there was one, at which point it moved from the safest (0 fatal accidents/1000 flights) to the worst safety stats of any modern airliner).

You would fly a C152 in Class G, generally.
It's done all the time. I did nearly an hour's worth this morning :) No midairs in IMC in the UK, since WW2. In VMC, about 1 a year.

It's OK when the weather is bad, but then almost nobody is flying. When the wx is good, they often don't provide a radar service; just a Basic Service "due to controller workload" (which is useless; you may as well be flying with a listening watch).

Play with the Eurocontrol routing tool (see other airways thread). I think IFR is pretty similar but in Europe one cannot generally go as low as in the USA. I think the US airways have their MEAs based on the higher of a) terrain i.e. MOCA and b) MRA, whereas most European airways have high bases seemingly unrelated to obstacles or navaid reception.

You could ask them but pigs will fly 100 years sooner :) Here, ATC is privatised and nearly all of of GA pays no route charges, so they do the minimum legally required of them.

Yes it would be great to have the US-type (or French-type) Class E system...

But just departing VFR and drilling a long hole in the Class G clouds works fine. The sky is a very big place, and almost nobody in the UK flies in clouds. Also, most UK pilot forum readers think they get a nosebleed above 2000ft :)

Victor Airways are just "advisory routes" really. A VFR pilot can bash around them, through them, in them whenever they like too.

If you file a V aw then as long as you are at the MEA then you will guarantee navaid reception and terrain clearance. However there is nothing to stop you filing GPS DCT - I once was flying back to an airport in Socal which had some convoluted routing along airways so I just asked for a DCT routing via GPS at about 12000. As the aircraft equipment was /G meaning IFR approved GPS onboard then I got it. 300mn DCT.

The difference in the USA is that all IFR is controlled and therefore requires a clearance. I actually think this is a good thing.....

Contacttower

Sorry, but it appears that IO540 is massively exaggerating the difficulty of the issue.

What you want to do is perfectly normal, I have done it many times. Yes you will have to leave controlled airspace, but will then be allowed back into controlled airspace if that is needed. Flying around Europe in an unpressurised aircraft in the airways is not a problem in most cases. Very occasionally there are difficult areas, where the convenient airway is too high and controllers will not clear you to leave controlled airspace, but it is very rare.

As for basic service being useless, IO540 appears to be flying on a completely different planet to the rest of us. I have heard aircraft reports that put me in conflict (estimating same VOR, same time, same altitude) and was able to find further details and spot the aircraft. I have many times been given useful information by the London Info, and I know they keep some sort of eye on the radar. It is kind of a hint when I change heading to avoid a danger area, and they check what I am doing, and let me know it is not active!Sorry IO540, that's balls. Most of the LTMA is available from FL70 or FL80, avoiding the SIDs with FL60 limits. Never been asked to cross LTMA above FL100, although been offered better routing by going higher.

Cameltoe's experience of N864 is the same as mine, and flying up to Scotland during the week is much the same. Get a service from Warton, as there can be some military activity, and you get good warning to have a good look at the pointy aeroplanes.

If you want any specific advice CT from someone who has flown hundred of hours IFR all across Europe in unpressurised aircraft drop me a PM.

That, presumably, is because the USA has Class E from 1200ft to 17999ft, and Class E is UNcontrolled for VFR :)

The USA balances this great VFR freedom with strict enforcement (to the extent that this is possible using witnesses, i.e. near departure/arrival airports) of illegal VFR in IMC, and a readily accessible IR. This probably means there is less "VFR in IMC" over there than here.

I think it's relevant to see the US system as a whole picture. It all comes together well. But we are never likely to get such a whole package over here.

IMHO the reason why the extensive French Class E (typ. FL065-FL115) which bears a lot of similarity to the US 1200ft-17999ft Class E, works in the relaxed way it does, despite the ability to file Eurocontrol IFR routes through it, is because very few French pilots fly as high as FL065. As far as I can tell, the vast bulk of French GA activity comprises of short local inter-club outings, done mostly at low level.

I am always ready to be educated... feel free to contribute in the appropriate detail.

Gosh we must have met but I don't recognise your nickname. Is it by any chance a duplicate of another one? ;)

I don't fly a pressurised plane - couldn't afford one. But I'd like to know how you manage to find clouds which are consistently lower than the ones I find ;) The good thing about IFR (with an IR) is that the only thing one is up against is the weather - not ATC - and altitude capability is the best way to deal with it. Sure one can hack one's way in IMC for hours, with decent de-icing etc and reasonably "robust" passengers.

Maybe I was just lucky!

Flying at FL90 or FL100 I spent more than 80% of my time in clear air. Most of the rest I was not suffering icing, maybe 5% of the time. This was commercial charter in an aircraft cleared for moderate icing, so I flew almost regardless of en-route weather and did not work excessively hard to avoid ice. If speed dropped much due to accumulation I never had a problem descending to FL60 or FL70, and usually found all icing cleared.

I do agree with you about flying IFR OUTCAS without radar cover. I have done it many times when no radar service was available. Usually cover is available in places and times that have any amount of traffic, so the statistics are not really surprising.

No doubt a conservative weather strategy (even more conservative than mine, which most pilots I know think is really conservative) would deliver VMC at FL070-100 every time. But you say you are not doing that.

If you are flying a deiced twin with radar (you don't say but if PT it would be something like that) and paid to fly (i.e. get the sack if you don't fly) then you will go anyway, and often you will find "VMC" at FL070 within a layered cloud whose tops may be FL140, but whereas you will be happy with that, and anyway have to be due to lack of oxygen for passengers, I will be working hard to stay above those tops because I am not de-iced and thus cannot afford to get snookered down below in solid IMC and collecting ice, whereas you can just do that.

I have no idea how often I am flying at say FL150, 2000ft above a solid overcast, while somebody could be flying below me at FL070 and be in VMC either between layers or below the cloud. But to me that is irrelevant because I cannot afford to get stuck down there, whereas you have no choice and I am sure that a lot of the time you will find some VMC down there. To me that is academic because to fly down there would be foolish as it would cut off my escape routes from icing.

When hacking around in Class G one can always try to descend to warmer air but on an airways flight this is an option only up to a point, before ATC gets ratty about it because one is going into some military area. One can declare a mayday or just firmly request a descent as it is obviously an emergency, and I had to do that recently (freezing rain, but in IMC and descending close to destination anyway) but one doesn't want to be hacking 500nm right across a chunk of Europe at 3000ft, with the VFR chart, wondering what obstacles are down there. So the only smart way is to be on top and stay there.

Icing is pretty statistical and I can well believe that one gets it substantially only say 10% of the time. The other day I went up in in about -8C and after some minutes collected about 5mm of mixed clear and rime. How much would I pick up after say 3 hours? I don't really want to be stuck in IMC finding out the answer. I want to be upstairs in sunshine, with 100nm vis, knowing there isn't any ice down there.

Also you don't say anything about what you fly. If you are doing 200kt TAS then you are getting an aerodynamic temp rise of 5-6 degC and that narrows the supercooled water temperature band by 1/3 to 1/2.

I think to argue that icing is rare is missing the point - for a non deiced pilot. Sure it is rare. I know a few pilots who say it is rare so why bother about it? But I could post pictures of heavily iced up wing leading edges taken by people who nearly got killed who banked on it being rare. There are many more who did get killed but there are no pics because the stuff melted before anybody got to it, or melted in the fire. That's the problem with writing a few lines attacking somebody's strategy, without posting any detail.

I think the barrier is there to prevent small,ill equipped aircraft with unskilled pilots getting in the way of the more professional well kitted aircraft.

I've just been flying here in Asia today on a 550 miles round trip where we flew at around Fl 22.(Pressurized Malibu Turboprop) Just a 2 hour jolly.

We descended on track/time from 15000 ft to have to hold for several minutes
because of poor track/timing by a C150.

Annoying to say the least when we could have parked and had a coffee while a
poorly managed ppl got his act together:ok:

Could you post some detail, there? It doesn't read right to me. What "act" should he have got together? IFR traffic is normally under ATC control, etc. Also I am not aware of "barriers" "to prevent small,ill equipped aircraft with unskilled pilots getting in the way of the more professional well kitted aircraft." The weather considerations are different, of course. The regs and the pilot skills required to get an IR are just the same.

Oh Skygod, we're not worthy.....:D

That is why I like the USA, everyone is equal in the eyes of the FAA and ATC - from a C150 in the "airways" to a funky Malibu Turboprop to a RJ with his climb restricted so he doesn't hit the C150...

Oh PS: My commander is going to have far better avionics in it that the last Continental 757 that I flew in from Houston to LA, which still had steam driven gauges in....

EnglishAl

You should see the kit on one of the aircraft I flew commercially in the airways. Best I had was a KNS80. Few self-respecting owners of an airways-equipped aircraft would get airborne that ill-equipped!

IO540

Radar? Radar? Oh, the luxury. OK, one of them had a Stormscope, but no functioning weather radar in any aircraft I flew in the airways. I have never had a problem descending to clear icing conditions, and it was always a commercial decision as ice was affecting speed more than the benefit I was getting from density altitude.

An aircraft with no de-icing kit is more vulnerable, but that just means a decision before departure and more caution after making a marginal decision. It does restrict options but only in terms of timing and having to be flexible. Most of the year it should not be a serious restriction.

You must know some new bit of physics.

Example: OAT on the ground: -2C. How will you descend to clear icing conditions? The only way to get rid of any ice picked up will be for it to sublimate, which takes an awfully long time.

What planes were you flying? Single or twin pilot?

Your routes would also be interesting. Which bit of the world?

Let's say you get a DCT BCN (Barcelona VOR) from 250nm away. How would use use a KNS80 to do that? (I can see ways but not easy). Or a DCT to some French VOR which doesn't have a co-located DME?

12Watt Tim said:
Then we can only assume that you never flew in European winters or over mountainous terrain!

Sorry to say, but there is the potential here for you to dangerously mislead the inexperienced GA IFR pilot into believing that pre-flight icing decisions are unimportant.