Pace

By definition any view we hold (dear) is biassed, mine no more or less than yours.

However, for clarity sake, I am not opposed to discussion.

As I have said previously, I am dubious of the merit of discussing accidents where we have almost no evidence on which to base our discussion. This accident is a good example in that as I indicated earlier it is almost impossible to eliminate any cause (other than weather). By definition the discussion is hence almost wholly hypothetical.

In contrast, consider the discussion that took place recently about the Cirrus. We had good reason to believe the weather was a factor. This was subsequently confirmed by friends of the pilot. In consequence an interesting and well informed discussion ensued about the risks of airframe icing.

There is a morbid fascination in accidents - they attract interest, whether it be on here, in the press or those rubber necking as they drive past. That morbid fascination will almost certainly attract more people to read this thread. They may in consequence “learn” something from the thread about scenarios that lead to accidents and thus avoid replicating the same set of circumstances - clearly a good thing.

However, equally the discussions can often become so wide ranging and so speculative that they cover just about every scenario and leave us more confused than when we started. In short if you want an exposition of what can cause an aircraft to crash, don’t bother with Wickapedia, just read one of these threads.

There is also the issue of the distress we cause to relatives. I accept this is moot. However I am in no doubt that relatives and friends are frequently distressed by some of the ill informed discussion that takes place. In this case it has been suggested the aircraft was overloaded or the aircraft was performing aerobatics - both are serious allegations, which call to account the very legality of the flight. So far as I am aware there is barely a shred of evidence to support either hypothesis.

As a community we have a responsibility to analyse events in a methodical way - that is what we do to avoid accidents occurring in the first place and what we do to avoid a single manageable event escalating into something more serious. More than for any other reason I worry when we absolve ourselves of that responsibility as a community and debase ourselves to ill informed and wide raging speculation about the causes of an accident in circumstances in which we have so little evidence on which to base our hypothesis.

All said and done, perhaps the issue I have is that these threads seem to attract the best and worst in us. We desperately want answers, we desperately want to allay our own fears that it couldn’t happen to us, but sometimes life is just not like that - sometimes we will never know why, only that it was.

People are free agents, ultimately if sufficiently determined they will do as they wish be it here or elsewhere - it is just a bit easier on an anonymous forum.

However, those who keep an open mind may be persuaded of the merits of a particular line of argument and take a different tack in consequence. If enough do so I think we would end up with a more informed and more constructive debate on threads such as this. I also think we might avoid jumping to potentially distressing conclusions unless we could support our conclusions by reference at least to circumstantional evidence.

Fuji

As you rightly posted we may never know. Not even the AAIB always come up with a definative answer. For all we know maybe the passenger had a panic attack, grabbed the controls and froze on them. I had that happen to me years ago. While very unlikely to be the cause of this accident a discussion on how to deal with such a passenger may serve a purpose for someone in the future.

The main point of an accident for pilots is the shock and reality that what we get so much pleasure from can turn around and bite hard with serious consequences. Not only to the pilot but to his passengers family and friends.

It is when such an accident is fresh that we are more open to examine our own behaviour and to take in what other pilots are saying. Some is rubbish, some maybe a million miles away from what actually happened but some are gems. There can be gems in the million miles away category too. Sometimes you have to sift through a lot of rubble to find the gems but you wont find them without looking or stifling conversation that leads to them.

As long as the discussions are not personal or statements of fact but the accident is used as a launch pad for discussion there is no reason why any relatives or friends should be upset.

Yes there are thrill seekers who plod the forums looking for fights, self importance trips or morbid excitement but there are many who are genuinely concerned not only about the accident and people involved but their own safety now and in the future.

Pace

I agree (on both points).

However, ever thought about a thread entitled "Mad girl grabs the controls".

It would probably attract just as much attention, would be subject specific and equally as informative. In fact a sort of PPRuNe ILAFFT.

Yeah?? And what if I did?? ;)

I don't understand why people have to get emotional. Why cannot accidents be discussed neutrally / technically?

That was quick. :)

I did wonder if you would be along.

Fuji

I always attract Mad Girls :)

Pace

Is it Lynx or some other personal odour?

Do I know you?? :E




Could we get back to the thread please... I've still got lots to learn and consider..

You see, we're all getting along again now, bit o' humour, bit o' understanding and genuine desire to learn:ok:

Bit like life eh?

Sir George Cayley

Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to remember being told of an accident to a perfectly serviceable aircraft in lovely weather, which initially appeared inexplicable. If I recall correctly, the pilot was flying his toddler of about 2 years and his father. The aircraft, I think, spun into the ground.Very careful examination by the AAIB concluded that the grandfather had reached back to the child and in doing so pushed the control column forward and the aircraft entered an unrecoverable spin. The conclusion was based on hand and fingerprints and their location within the aircraft.Pace, I can understand that as I too knew the pilot of an aircraft which crashed earlier in the year and although there is probably less of a mystery concerning the cause no report has yet been made. It may well be there were factors as yet unrevealed to us.
Whatever the eventual conclusion to any accident the only sure thing is that somewhere there is a least one family which is suffering the loss of a member. In this case it is even more sad as two young children have ben left without their parents and one of those is too young to be able to have any real memories of them.

DX Wombat

I flew that Citation 500 aircraft before she was sold on to them. Lovely aircraft and well maintained. I have heard Rumours but nothing solid PM me if you know something I dont.

Your last bit about two young kids loosing both parents in the PA28 crash is especially awful, makes you realise what a huge responsability flights in light aircraft are. More reason why we should discuss and discuss and be aware of not only our limitations but the aircrafts.

Pace

Not the same event Pace, but I have sent you a pm to clarify what I was talking about.

AAIB Investigation
 

AAIB will wish to interview selected people that had personal contact with the pilot within the proceeding 24 to 48hrs hrs prior to the flight under investigation or at any other relevant time. This may provide evidence regarding human factors relevant to the incident.

Police may wish to conduct interviews to collect relevant evidence to any subsequent 'Inquest'

Physical / medical factors will normally be established by Post Mortem examintion of the deceased, scene examination and from relevant medical records as required.

AAIB report will only be published when accuracy and completeness can be guaranteed. This can typically take up to in excess of 12 months to achieve.

For Info: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...PS%2010-09.pdf

The sensational version is at BBC NEWS | UK | England | Failed stunt 'caused air crash'

The BBC and national press pretty much summed up what happened for readers who do not fly light aircraft.

If you read the report in detail the guy was an accident waiting to happen.

Several times a year we get similar scenarios in the AAIB reports.

When the accidents happen there are all the bystanders who come on here and pour the crocodile tears and condolences.

The truth is we have all met one or more of these reckless types.

It's ok taking your own life through stupid actions.

To take non flyers who trust your pilot skills is another matter.

No doubt I'll be banned for telling the truth.

It is all very well getting all righteous about irresponsible pilots. What do you suggest - compulsory physometric testing with no appeal if you 'fail'?

A free helpline where anyone can call in and state that 'so and so is irresponsible and should be banned from flying'?

We have an unforgiving hobby which punishes carelessness. That 'works' better than any legislation.

This guy was 'mature' and had a reasonable level of experience - a few seconds of incompetence and it was all over - what practical measure - beyond better education and awareness is going to achieve anything?

A few seconds? He wasn't competent or mature enough to take on board that he should have stopped flying as soon as his medical expired in 1997.

Having read the AAIB report, it is clear that he bu99er all respect for any rules or regulations - probably considered that they were for other people to obey.

The AAIB report is ample condemnation and chilling reading. There is no record of this, no record of that, no evidence of the other. Maintenance was thoroughly dubious, no apparent approval of operation on mogas, maintenance conducted in an illegal fashion, logbooks not properly kept for either the pilot or the aircraft, and suspicions in my mind that his pilot logbook was actually falsified.

He KNEW his licence was invalid. He KNEW his medical had expired. He has robbed two children of their parents. I hope his estate is sued for everything it has to pay for their future upbringing, care and education, as the insurance company won't pay out a bean.