Most textbooks will say that alcohol is metabolised by the liver at approx 15mg / 100ml blood per hour. So, as someone just mentioned, to be well over the (flying) limit in the morning he must have been totally inebriated the night before.

Let's face it, it's bad airmanship to fly even with a hangover . . . . . let alone no medical, no IMC traing, overweight . . . . . GRRRRRR . . . :ugh:

I must say I'm pleased to see how firmly and unanimously this sort of behaviour has been condemned in this thread. In other threads involving fatalities there has been evidence of "sensitivities" being rubbed up the wrong ways. We seem to be largely in agreement on this one.

turns my stomache
 

No sympathy for either "pilot".
In fact, the less of these hare-brained idiots there are in aviation, the safer the rest of us will be. Got their just deserts as far as I'm concerned

Condolences to the surviving family members though

SR

That must be the grossest understatement I have seen in many years.

This is a free country, we have the right to free speech, I would vigorously defend your right to hold opinions which differ from mine.

But, if you are at least a realist, you would acknowledge that on this occasion you appear to be in a fairly small minority.

"the AAIB report says - ....If these levels genuinely reflect the amount of alcohol present in the blood at the time of the accident, it is possible that they may have produced some decrement in performance which may have been prejudicial to the safe conduct of the flight."

A lot of posters here have jumped straight onto the alchohol aspects of this accident. Seems to me the AAIB have a far more balanced view than some ranters on here. The limit for flying is very low, and I think the AAIB's comments take this into account.

This pilot (whichever of the two was the pilot) should not have been drinking. But the real cause of this tracgedy is flying in IMC without relevant skills, and then having the rug pulled out from under them by an AI failure in IMC.

The alchohol factor is deplorable, but probaly not too significant here. Being in IMC while unqualified is a known killer - to then lose the primary attitude instrument while in that demanding situation pretty much guarantees a tragic ending.

SSD

That last post does not even mention:

Having been declared medically unfit,
Having an expired pilot's licence,
Being grossly in excess of MTOW.

...And when you're in IMC with no AI and no instrument qualification, and fast losing it, of what practical relevance are those? :rolleyes:

SSD

. . . . . . . . and I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

Gentlemen, let's not fall out about the minutiae of this story. It's well known that there is no single cause for any accident, numerous things stack up. But what we have here is a very very sad story which will no doubt become an educational classic case for those whose job it is to impart what is (or, actually, is not) meant by "good airmanship".

Socal

The guy in the left seat had 99mg of alcohol in his system which was twice the driving limit and five times the aviation limit the pilot in the right seat was on the driving limit and two and a half times over the aviation limit.

Surely someone at the airport must have noticed something odd but didnt question or were not alerted.

Maybe the guy in the left seat regarded the woman pilot in the right seat as captain from the right. Maybe she didnt think her alcohol levels were so high.

No medical, no licence a history of medical problems, No instrument capability aircraft overweight???

The aircraft overweight in itself isnt a major problem on the right runway with the C of G correct, the vacuum failure isnt a major problem in alert and well trained IR pilot but looking at the total MIX of this flight the results were almost inevitable and reaks of someone who didnt care a toss.

Pace

No difference
 

I often am on this board. It doesn't really worry me. If I'm the only person human enough to suggest that slagging someone off that's died with comments like:

Quote:

---

Got their just deserts as far as I'm concerned

---

Is in bad taste, then I think it says rather more about the sort of poster on pprune than it does anything about me!

Exactly so - if you spot it!

We all do partial panel training for the IMC/IR or renewal in the UK, and like to think we'd spot an AI failure. But for a pilot who has never had any IMC training, and is relying on the AI to get through the clouds, I wouldn't be so confident. I think a vacuum pump failure in IMC, for a pilot who is stretching things like that, is one event too far.

This pilot clearly had decided that the normal rules didn't apply to him. He paid the ultimate price for that presumption. I find it very sad, but not surprising.

I've no doubt that you are correct, but I hope not. Telling people about these sort of incidents probably only results in them thinking "I'd never do anything as stupid as that" and switching off.

I think people take more (learn more) from an incident where all the decisions in isolation seem reasonable, but overall they build up to be a problem. Perhaps in those types of situation people could see themselves makeing was seem to be reasonable decisions, and learn something from it.

dp

This thread seems to have a lot of comparisons with red top journalism.

The alcohol limit for flying is very low - low enough that natural decomposition can mean you are over the limit. So for those making this noise bear in mind your relatives may read something similar!

The AAIB had to be careful about the alcohol contribution because a very unusual method of determining the alcohol concentration was used. One which could be challenged.

It's negligent to fly if you have health problems? But there were 2 pilots onboard. No one seems too worried about being overweight - possibly because they do it also?

Not having a current licence? Well there are a whole variety of reasons and ways in which that can occur - but again they were 2 pilots onboard.

These people died because the autopilot was flying them and the vacuum pump it was linked to failed - with the terrain and the height they were at they had little time to notice something which has killed a lot of current IR pilots.

Picking up on the perpherial aspects of the accident makes for a great deal of self rightousness but very much misses the point - but I suppose it allows people to feel smug.

There is nothing red top about telling the truth.

Don't blame the vac pump. They took off in to non VFR conditions without the neccesary training and qualifications to cope with the problems that could arise.

No doubt they had employed the same trick in the past but this time fate took a hand.Play with fire and at some time you will get burnt.

I just hope others who fly will the same attitude will think again after reading the AAIB report and the details of the inquest.

Hmmm. Whilst doubtless we can all agree that the pilot exhibited an unwise, cavalier attitude to flying, it certainly doesn't follow that this was the cause of the accident. Just as likely their luck ran out, which could equally have happened had the pilot not been in breach of any regulations.

In my flying lifetime, there have been numerous fatalities following instrument failure in IMC. Whilst in no way suggesting that training, qualifications and being below the legal alcohol limit are unimportant, what is absolutely certain is that they are not sufficient to guarantee a survivable outcome from the type and timing of mechanical failure experienced on this fateful flight.

Two prominent examples (from many) come to mind:

1) The Knight Air Bandeirante that lost one or possibly both artificial horizons two minutes after take-off from Leeds/Bradford (May 1995), and crashed killing all twelve occupants. Two highly trained, qualified and current professional pilots.

2) The Beech Bonanza that had a gyro failure one and half minutes after take off from Linden, New Jersey (November 1999), and crashed a mile from downtown Newark killing all three occupants and injuring twenty five people on the ground. An ATPL pilot with >4,000 hours, flying 200-300 hours p.a. on type and regular acting as instrument instructor in the highly-acclaimed Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program.

As gasax says:I have a suspicion that the real 'survival' message from this tragic accident is rather different from the one most posters are focusing on.

Ermmm, well had he abided by the law, he would have been on the ground... and 3 lives would have been saved..

I would say that would be quite relevant.

That's just silly. By that logic if he'd never learned to fly he would have been on the ground. It's of course true like the stuff you quoted, but entirely irrelevant to that accident!

They died because they ventured into IMC without the requisite skills, and the failure of the AI pretty much ensured disaster. The alcohol didn't help. All the rest is fluff.

SSD

The well known footballer Luke Mc Cormick was jailed for killing two young boys when loosing control of his car. His Alcohol level was twice the drink driving limit or the same as the left seat pilot of this aircraft.

To fly an aircraft in IMC while qualified to do so is demanding enough add a possible vacuum failure and the pilot would have to be quick thinking, well co ordinated and current to stay on top of the situation.

Put a drunk pilot at the controls, one who is not even qualified in instrument flying and who no longer holds a medical or licence???

Had he survived the crash I am sure he too would have been imprisoned for killing his passengers.

Pace

Pace, surely it's incumbent on those making strong allegations to at least get their facts straight? Twice the drink drive limit in the UK is a blood alcohol concentration of 160mg per ml, not the 99mg per ml attributed by the toxicologist to the left seat pilot in this case.

Another difference is that the pilot was dead at the time the sample was taken. Can anyone cite an example of postmortem muscle alcohol concentration being accepted as evidence of premortem BAC in a criminal case?

I wonder how many on here have flown with a hangover?