"Don't call mayday over the radio...!"
 

Anybody else see this letter in Pilot Mag Dec '08 (page 36)?

Would love to know where XXX is. :=

I'd be interested to hear how the villain of the piece suggests you call "Mayday". Shout out of the window, perhaps?:ugh:

Prat.:=

On the one occasion I had to make a Mayday (minor mid-air collision, if there is such a thing) I called both on 121.5 and local airfield frequency, as I thought it likely they would be interested and possibly even have to take any necessary action.

I didn't start the call with an airfield full identity, only position of the incident, since I was mildly busy at the time enduring the sircraft was sufficiently controllable and stucturally sound enough so that I didn't need to rely on Mr Irvin's useful product.

If any controller had complained I would not have bothered to respond until later, when I might have considered an appropriate discussion.

Surely, this is another one that the pilot concerned should be reporting to CHIRP ?

Don't call Mayday...

Actually I have long thought that the mayday call would be much more pithy as:

"F**K, F**K, F**K"!! Summarises the situation when the donk has quit at 100 feet quite nicely I think.

The Pan call could similarly be replaced by:

"Bugg*r, Bugg*r, Bugg*r", as it carries a degree of irritation without quite as much immediate concern as the former.

These could initially be "piloted" :O in the vicinity of XXX airfield, with the intention to phase it in globally thereafter.

:p:p:p

FBW

Just read that letter. Either there was some sort of misunderstanding or the controller/radio operator was completely out of order. Either way I don't imagine the matter will end there. I seem to remember reading a report recently (CHIRP?) about controllers/operators getting shirty when the wrong callsign is used i.e. calling them 'radio' when they should be 'tower' etc.; I don't think the CAA take a very positive view of that sort of pettiness.
AMEandPPL, I would say that if true that is an MOR matter, not CHIRP; nothing confidential about it and far too serious.

It is also strange how many pilots are reluctant to call a mayday preferring to down grade to "I have a problem" :)

Maybe its because they do have a problem and dont yet consider it a mayday or they are embarrassed or dont want the fuss and paperwork.

I had two fairly recent events one a corporate jet filling with smoke at night and the other a depressurisation climbing through 17000 feet.

Strangely while being asked whether I was declaring an emergency on both occasions I had a reluctance to do so.

The first after some thought :) Yes the second NO just a descent and diversion.

Do others here have the same mental block in doing so and why?

Pace

Shouldn't happen but everyone can make a mistake.

On my first night circuit in a Wessex 5 helicopter some 30 years ago, we suffered a hydraulic failure, a "land asap, running landing" emergency.

I called "(Callsign) Wessex, PAN PAN PAN, hydraulic failure downwind, request priority running landing on the runway" (rather than a hover landing on the normal helicopter T night landing spots inside the runway) .

ATC said: "Stand by - I have a simulated engine failure joining shortly".

My instructor said on the radio: "He didn't say "Practice PAN.....it's a real one".

ATC: Oh, er...Ooops sorry, clear land on the runway.

(So I did and the hydraulic fluid melted the new tarmac they'd just had laid).

From the RAF's finest ATC school :p

It does seem a bit dramatic at times even to call a justified pan, I don't know why one is so reluctant. I remember a partial engine failure, while revalidating my licence (expired by four days, yet). This left us able to maintain height at the expense of a loss of some airspeed, and my examiner and I spent most of the struggle back to the airport discussing whether we should call a pan, and in the end didn't, as the place was pretty quiet anyway. Got back to a definite "get this landing right" situation, much crosswind and a wet runway adding to the fun. To his eternal credit, my examiner let me land the unfamiliar aircraft while keeping his mouth shut and hands still.

I read this letter and apart from the patent stupidity of "don't call Mayday on the radio", the 'facts' as stated did not make sense to me in that the "Controller" (as referred to twice) allegedly said "we are XXX TRAFFIC when you call". As far as I am aware TRAFFIC is used e.g. out-of-hours at a FIS aerodrome or for a blind call if no response received from an A/G "Radio" station. In neither case would a "Controller" be involved. That made me question the accuracy of the content of the letter as presented.

Earlier this year I had to make my first distress call for real when I had one and a half mags failure, and needed a prompt rejoin to my FIS base aerodrome, with priority in the active circuit as any go-around would be impossible; I must admit one reason I called a Pan and not a Mayday was the incorrect assumption that the latter would involve formal paperwork! Where I got that idea from is a mystery. The Pan call was the correct one to make, even if for the wrong reason. All ended well, circuit was cleared for me and I landed with a dead engine. Phew.

Slip

When my donk quit at 200' on finals I just called "G-XX, engine failure on finals. landing in undershoot". I kind of assumed that they would work out that this was not normal. No time really for much more.

Will the RT police be round to have a word?

First off, can someone post a link to this subject? Please :)

Secondly, as an ATCO I have a few words to say on the subject, such as have been posted on this thread.

I currently work at a military airfield where they aren't shy about declaring PAN or MAYDAY if there is an issue. However, I've also worked at a few civvy airfields (soon to return to fully civ. ATC), and I have had, on a few occasions, been forced to say "say again?" to a waffly "I'm returning with an engine/hydraulic/gear/ take you pick problem." It wastes RT time, delays the RFFS response, gets missed by other pilots on the frequency, etc etc.

Perhaps it's a British thing - our innate tendency to understate. You have a problem - state it! No-one is going to take the pee out of you for it once you're down and in the bar. For us, such occurrences also form an essential part of our emergency training. Every incident has a new aspect to it which we discuss at length and learn from. Worried about form-filling? Well, yeah, we fill in an MOR, but if it's a fairly straightforward, safely concluded emergency, not a great deal ensues officially for the pilot.

Nothing, NOTHING gets ATC attention like PAN or MAYDAY, trust me! You can be sure that everything possible will be in place for you asap should you declare so. Always remember, we are here for you. We're on the same side after all, yes?

Yus.

"Allo, Allo, Allo - what we have got here then? That should be FINAL, me lad. No S on the end. You're bluddy nicked mate".

Foxy Loxy

Maybe its me alone but I do have a big problem calling a mayday :) Too dramatic , maybe its a boy thing? Cant we just change it to XYZ is declaring an Emergency. That has a more dignified less big movie drama to it :)

Pace

The point has already been made but it bears repetition. The RT callsign "Radio" is not a controller or even a FISO. I would hope that the training involved to gain either licence would ensure that Maydays would be properly dealt with. Air ground operators may not have either the experience or the training to respond adequately but I would also hope that the Radio Station's licensee would have a duty of care to provide training to the operators on what the implications are.

USe of the term "Traffic" says it all - it is highly likely that no one was manning the ground station and the reply was from someone airborne.

Pace.

Couldn't disagree more with you (or anyone else who thinks the terminology should be changed).
Mayday or Pan get's everyone's attention, anything else is ambiguous and potentially dangerous because there will be a delay in responding and rendering assistance.

There is absolutely no shame whatsoever in declaring a PAN or a MAYDAY, you shout and we'll make sure that everyone on the ground is ready for you, if you discover after landing (or even in the air) that you no longer have a problem, it doesn't matter, we'd rather everyone was there to meet you then than minutes afterwards.

Agree re the pettiness over the 'label'.

At an airport near me (yes, known to foxy), I have often heard a huffy sounding xxx RADAR! when someone has addressed them as 'xxx approach'.

Since the radar is rather prone to falling over, when they are indeed known as Approach, it seems too picky, even for a pedant like me.

I had to declare a pan at Brussels International last year, due to a potential unsafe gear.

They were absolutely brilliant in handling us. The gear held and my GF got a cup of coffee from the customs officers once parked at the GA terminal!

Surely the "controller" has long been sacked at XXX. This must be the exception that confirms the rule, just think of the blind pilot last week.

ATC may sometimes be a pain in the neck to VFR flights but dear God are they good to have when you need them!

Well, the pilot of a Robinson R-22 who suffered an engine governor failure in the dark north tonight put out a nice precise PAN PAN call and got the attention of the Radar controller. Hope he made it back to the airfield safely. :ok:

niknak said:
Absolutely on the nail. Just yesterday, I had a PAN call made, the problem was an oil leak. It streamed all the way up and over the canopy - the pilot could see pretty much bggr all forward.

The biggie that I tend consider for emergencies is pilot distraction. That's why I often call a "local standby" for seemingly minor issues declared on RT. Not all pilots are as accomplished or confident as some. Again, the paperwork is mainly an ATC concern.

frostbite said:
That justifies a thread of its own.... :}

A friend of mine, a non-native English speaker, had the PA28 fan quit on him last year and declared this to the ATC RADAR frequency he was working, who told him to contact XYZ. He replied 'Negative, I have an engine failure', whereupon he was once more told to contact the alternative frequency.

Running out of altitude, he decided to concentrate on landing the aircraft, successfully, in a field.

Admittedly, he didn't use the words MAYDAY or PAN PAN but I would have thought the words 'engine' and 'failure' in the same sentence should have been enough for the controller to take the proper action.

In the past 12 months I have had 4 x problems, all of which have resulted in ATC scambling the fire trucks for me, one in EGHH, two in LFMD and one in LGIR. Many thanks to the ATC and the fire crews on each occasion there.:ok:

exceedingly bad luck . . . . . . !
 

That's more than anyone deserves in a LIFETIME of flying, never mind a twelvemonth ! !

Would it be impertinent to suggest that you may need to review the standards of your regular maintenance organisation ? ?

3 different aircraft from 3 separate organisations.

Luck of the draw I'm afraid.

None of them turned out to be anything serious but I don't believe in taking chances and obviously ATC don't.

Anyone wanna come flying with me? ;)

2close

I have noticed that when doing simulator checks for work, often the other pilot doesn't want to declare a MAYDAY, even for an engine failure. I've also heard "well its not on fire so I think a PAN is sufficient".

Whereas I would say, bugger that, I'm calling a MAYDAY. Why not?

Even when I call a MAYDAY for an engine failure (in the sim) I sometimes get the other pilot saying "well we can downgrade it to a PAN". Why? Surely an engine failure is pretty serious!!! Why NOT call a MAYDAY???

PAN is not always recognised abroad, and although I would use it in the UK in certain circumstances, perhaps if engine was running not quite right, but was still running, and not causing a problem with the flight path. But if I had any doubt I would just call a mayday.

Looking from an external viewpoint
If my house is on fire I get out & call the fire service by dialling 999 not by ringing their normal landline number.
The on going fire safety publicity stresses that they would rather be called to a good intent false alarm that a serious incident develop.
I've actually had the opposite at work, where the fire service asked for assistance with an electrical incident affecting the internal wiring of a property (not really my employers resposibility. The Crew Manager was concerned that they had done the right thing by calling us - of course they had.
If I am with someone who collapses I get an ambulance by dialling 999 - not ringing the local hospital or doctors surgery

So as I see it the PAN & MAYDAY are your equivalent of these services you have an emergency, you need help that is how to get it.
Talking to an ATCO earlier there is no issue if it was a genuine concern and all the emergency teams are called out, but a failure to declare an emergency could have massive consequences.

Call a Mayday. You can always down grade it to pan after you have calmed down and got things under control.

One day during the climb, things were not quite as they should be, T&P's not quite right. We turned back towards the airfield and called the tower....... no response. Called again.......... no response. Temp was rising and pressure dropping but we could see the airfield Called the tower....... no response. Prop was spinning but no power.
I looked at the guy in the other seat and we both said "bugger this" (or words to that effect) MAYDAY MAYDAY MADAY Woooooooooooo instant response "the airfield is yours land wherever you need to"

We landed safely but only just scraped in over the boundary fence.

"Traffic?"

The only time I have heard this phrase is when communicating on unicom on unmanned fields in the US and it is used to announce one's intentions or position to other aircraft.

I haven't seen the letter in Pilot - was it definitely a UK field?

As an ex-D&D inmate (many many years ago!) I would suggest that if you have to decide whether to call MAYDAY or PAN ... ALWAYS go for MAYDAY in the 1st instance and downgrade later if necessary. No one is going to think anything other than relief that things are looking better for you.

To call PAN and then have the problem deteriorate rapidly may not give you the chance of upgrading.

BTW
(Thread creep warning) Positively NO "Practice Mayday" calls! ... There was once such a call made near Yeovilton ... 'Yeovil Flag XX' then 'practiced' buying beer (lots) in the wardroom :=

Sounds to me like the "Controller" might have been an airborne instructor who, rightly or wrongly, thought that his solo student had made a simulated mayday call with the PTT held down by mistake.

There seems to a be a fundamental issue here with some people not understanding what Mayday actually means.

It is a condition of being threatened by serious or iminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.

The fundamental reason for having to hold a radio operator's licence is so that we can demonstrate that we know how to handle messages appertaining to the safety of life. ITU Radio Regulations Art 35.

So if you have a licence, you should know what it is and how to deal with it.

Some years ago we had IRIS who monitored RT standards but now its more akin to Slack Alice. I recall hearing a Military ATCO ask a pilot who called Mayday on running out of fuel on final "Is this a real one or a practice!"

Whopty
 

I agree MAYDAY should only be used in case of imminent danger, otherwise it's a PAN.

Imminent would be to me the loss of an engine in a SEP, severe icing leading to descent, fire on board etc.

As long as you feel your airplane will be controllable till the landing (eg gear failure) it s a PAN in my view

In the 1970s it was a requirement for trainee RAF pilots to spend an hour in the ATC tower every month and sign a log as having done so (v. good idea, in my view).

The Jet Provost's r/t system made both pilots' microphones "live" whenever either transmit button was pressed so you had to be careful not to "butt in" from the other seat.

One day we heard a student call: "MAYDAY.... MAYDAY....PRACTICE MAYDAY!"

Immediately followed in the same transmission by "You :mad: IDIOT!" from his instructor.

All the air traffickers jumped a foot, then hooted with laughter!

I always thought it was a mistake when the nautical people decided to abbreviate the traditional "S**T, OH S**T" call.

I have my own personal set of rules for this. If something happens which really captures my attention and I have any doubt about getting the aircraft on the ground safely, or if it is a medical emergency, then it is a MAYDAY. Any aircraft problem which causes me to deviate from my planned flight profile, then it is a PAN.

Examples in the last couple of years:

Oily blue smoke in cockpit causing streaming eyes and a hacking cough (all engine indications normal) - MAYDAY

One fuel gauge dropped from 3/4 to 1/4 over about 30 secs - PAN and diversion.

Always start with a high bid in my view. Downgrade it if and when you are content that the situation is resolved.

I must say I find this discussion (and many others like it on PPrune) amazing. What on earth is the point of the Mayday/Pan distinction? Either you're in trouble and you need all the help you can get, or not. Having to stop and wonder whether you should call "Mayday" or "Pan" (or maybe just "Excuse me, I don't want to bother anyone") is a waste of time and energy.

In the US (which is where I fly, mainly) nobody has ever heard of Pan. It's in AIM (I just checked) but nobody ever talks about using it. What exactly does it mean? Mayday is obvious - get everyone else off freq, clear the field, roll the firetrucks. But Pan? Listen carefully? Put the paper down and leave the sudoku til later?

n5296s

Hello!

Yes, at least this is what we get told in Germany too (and I have been telling my own students for over 15 years now).

Here, "Mayday" is supposed to be a one-word shortcut (to be repeated three times though) for "Whoever is listening: I have a big problem here; I herewith declare an ermergency; everybody else please shut up; ATC please give me priority and all possible support". This "Mayday" word is only the prefix to the message itself, that you pass thereafter. You are supposed to call Mayday on the frequency that you are actively using - and on 121.5 when you are not currently in radio-contact with anybody.

"Pan", on the other hand, is the prefix to an "urgency message". It is the abbreviation for "Hello everyone, I have something urgent to pass, please be quiet for a moment until I'm done with it." A "Pan"-message does not even have to be aviation related, the textbook example being a pilot who oberserves a car crash below and tells ATC, who have direct telephone lines to the rescue services, about it. Calling "Pan" gives you no special treatment by ATC at all (in this country!). If the Pan message is related to yourself, your aeroplane or your passengers, ATC will respond by asking "Do you wish to declare an emergency". If so, you should better have called "Mayday" in the first place, because this yould have saved you the time and distraction of two extra transmissions.

Greetings, Max

NB: A controller answering with "Don't call Mayday over the radio" to a Mayday call would immediately be suspended here. He probably wouldn't even be allowed to finish his shift.

obvious, innit ?
 

and quite right too . . . . !

how else do you call a Mayday ?

"Gander Oceanic, Speedbird One, message"
"Speedbird One, Gander, say again"
"Gander, Speedbird One and we have a message for you"
"Allright Speedbird One, go ahead and pass your message"
"Gander, Speedbird One, message is 'mayday mayday mayday the wing is on fire'"

Then thay are not acting in accordance with ICAO Annex 10 which states that an aircraft making an Urgency call shall have priority over all other traffic except a distress call!

As I found out inbound to LGW last year on a "Pan Pan" to be told on contacting them, "I hope you have another plan, you're number two to Mayday traffic.":ouch: