Flying from and around Bournemouth
 

Hello! I'm from Italy, and I'm considering to join the Cabair's ATPL ground school in Bournemouth in january and, as I've to build some hours before starting with cpl/ir after the GS I was thinking about flying at bournemouth during my stay. I've no experience about GA flying in the UK so any information about VFR flying is appreciated. My main question is about Bournemouth area if ther're airports or strips around to do some short flying x-country trips. What about local flying clubs? Cabair offers a 50 hour hour package which results to be £135 / hour incld. fees. Is it possible to find something cheaper around? Well, as I wrote, any advice will be of help! :)

You can look up schools here FLYER Directory. Cabair is one of the more expensive. Best not to take a package as you might not find you are happy for some reason, or you stay is cut short.

Which aircraft are you interested in?

The cheapest :)

And thanks for the link.

I hope you haven't paid in advance for the entire course. There is a another CPL/IR/ME school on the airfield that has a long established history of finishing off Cabair students who have left after lots of false promises. Unfortunately a few seem to lose their deposits along the way as well.

You can rent from Bournemouth Flying Club, if you like Pipers, although they are a bit expensive.

BCFT have a C172 you can rent too, although it can be a bit complicated to get hold of...

Compton Abbas or Old Sarum might be your best solution, if you have a car. Very friendly places & some great English countryside to be flown over!!

Beware Cabair....lots of unmentioned extras.

Rmarvin86:
Old Sarum is about 35km North of Bournemouth and now has three PA28s (glass cockpit and conventional), two AT-3s and a Bulldog - more aircraft will probably be arriving over the next few months. There are also flexwings, C42s, Sky Arrows and Shadows available. There's even at least one Italian at the airfield.
For hours building the AT-3s would give the cheapest option but they're VFR-only.

These links shows many of the larger civil airfields: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...1_3_2_1_en.pdf
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu..._AD_1_3_en.pdf
NATS | AIS - Home
but there are also lots of smaller ones

HFD

Thx all for your replies so far. That warnings about cabair makes me concern a little but I've read a lot about it around here and I've found very good feedbacks, anyhow I think I'll give a look at the school myself when I'll travel to GTW for my medical revalidation.

To budget my hour building in the UK and to assess if it's worth can someone tell me what normal hiring rates are? C150 or any other cheap VFR aircraft. That AT-3 looks interesting, what about that one?
Are airport fees expensive if flying out from bournemouth? I know tht HR building is cheaper in the US but I will stay for 7 month during GS so I though to take some 20-30 hours?!? Maybe more depending on rates.

Well I never!!! Who would that be?? :D ;) :p

RMarvin86 - PM if you want to understand the joke...

My personal souvenir of Bournemouth is the 62 Pounds approach, landing, and handling fee (free coffee included). If you want to fly in the London area, I strongly recomment the West London Aero Club. Check the links below for more about my own experience of flying in England.

White Waltham and the West London Aero Club

Flying England II - IMC, ILS, and Radar Service

Flying Bournemouth to Guernsey - The Perfect Plan

Very nice website plasticpilot, I'll take a deeper look at it as I have more time. Please tell me about the 62 pounds, I'm not sure I did understand? Did they charge you that much for landing into bournemouth? 'cause I would call it really expansive!

any Bournemouth flying club members here ? I'd like to fly in, but do not wish to pay silly landing fee's, could I join a Bournemouth based club ? and qualify for cheaper landing fee's ? ( my brother has recently moved to Bournemouth, hence enquiry )

Bournemouth flying club charge a 95 squid membership fee....for 1 year. which i guess aint too bad if you plan to do alot of flights in/out of Bournemouth but for a one off its a bit extreme. Heard theres a place that does a/c rentals pretty cheap....not cabair/BCFT/bournemouth flying club. any ideas what it's called??

Mark.

I am pretty sure there are no capital groups that you can get into up at Blackbushe. Its a bit of a drive but I would say the cheap flying would soon outweigh the petrol costs and membership fees that a club would charge. Not to mention the prohibitively expensive landing fees that BOH charges (it thinks it is the next LHR)!

Your going to be busy in class during the week which only leaves you free for weekend flying which invariably is the busiest time for clubs and hence aircraft availability will be at its lowest. Old Sarum might have some groups as well.

Solent School of Flying is the place you want. No messing about, good a/c availability and its about £120 to join the club. BFC tend to mess people about bit (I have heard). checkouts if you havent flown for a week or something similar! ( possible money making tactics! )

Thanks, I check their website, looks great. Regarding other flying clubs around Bournemouth, I don't think I'll be able to move by car during my stay so I think I should consider a locally based club.

Is it possible to find a free chart online with local airfields and airports of the area? I did check the link from NATS but it only depicts the major fields of the UK.

expedite08 "BFC tend to mess people about bit (I have heard). checkouts if you havent flown for a week or something similar! ( possible money making tactics! )"

The management have recently changed and there is a bit of 'messing about' as you put it (have suffered this recently myself) but they operate the standard 28-day rule that most places do.

Their PA28's and C172's are about £25 cheaper if you go for the new diesel versions (as they use about half the fuel), I've not got around to getting diesel-checked yet myself so can't comment on how they fly. I think the cost per hour of a diesel PA28 is £107 or thereabouts so this would be a good move for hours-building.

Could you please explain me what this 28 days rule is?

A good deal. Can you tell me if you have to pay local airport fees if you're a member of the Bournemouth flying club (markp123 mentioned a membership fee which gives a discount, I guess, on airport fees.)

Sorry, '28-day rule' is a standard thing most flying clubs operate when hiring their a/c out. You have to have flown (not necess. with them) in the preceding 28 days to allow you to solo hire an a/c. If you haven't, you aren't considered current and will need a check-flight, the length of which isn't fixed, it tends to depend on how experienced you are and how well they know you/your flying skills.

I try to stay current but when I've drifted outside the 28 days, (who hasn't given the crap wx this year?), I've used a check flight for brush-up training such as grass/short-field ops, instrument flight etc.

I think the currency rule (generally 28 days but it varies, I've seen between 14 days and six weeks) is more to do with insurance companies policy as much as anything but am willing to be told otherwise. Personally, I think it's a good thing as it's often lack of recent flight experience that causes alot of problems.

The BFC hire rates: I've never paid a landing fee at Bournemouth (EGHH) ever and do a few circuits every now and then without issue (bar lots of traffic, it can get V.busy), if you hire from them, they have landing cards for most a/c. Check out their website and full price list on Bournemouth Flying Club
Briefly:
A PA28 is £132 petrol/£107 diesel per hour solo rate
a C172 is £141 petrol/£110 diesel per hour solo rate

They do a frequent flyer scheme but I don't know about this, give them a call if you're interested, maybe worth considering if you want to do a block of hours, rates reduce further but do your sums before signing up to any such thing to be sure it's worth it.

Be seeing you...

Thank you DBisDogOne you've been really clear and of help!

Thanks a lot :-)

That's what I paid for an ILS approach, subsequent landing, handling (marshaller and free coffee). This was with a PA32-Saratoga, as visitor. I guess that based aircrafts get better rates...

PP

AT3 at Old Sarum
 

At Old Sarum i know they are now operating two Aero AT3's, which they are renting out dry. They use an average of 15ltr per hour, so they are a very cheap option. They also do hour building deals, check out the website. www.flysarum.com.

Its also alot less busy than bournemouth.:)

p1

That went traight to my bookmarks list! Thanks a lot. I've been told about Old Sarum field but don't think I'll be able to get around by car, maybe by public transport means getting there easily but I'll found it by myself when there.

PlasticPilot: You are right of course, visiting a/c are hit up similar to any other airport with 'International' in the title!!!! A/c based there are given cheaper rates I believe.

P1: OldSarum really nice place, and less busy? Damn right!!!! Thinking of changing to there myself.

I'm at bournemouth flying club - membership is currently free until the new software goes live (maybe this will be Oct/Nov) Once the software is live membership will be £95 per year. Only A/C hired from there include landing fees / parking etc regardless of your membership status.

Coffee / Soup & even the water is free (this might make all the difference!)

someone already posted a link but I thought I'd explain the 'frequent flyer' option...

You are looking at 50 hours - frequent flyer is £1250 to join then it's £77 per hour (wet & including landings). This means you could fly 50 hours in a PA28 for as little as £102 per hour (saving £250), but if you fly more you save more.

There are 8 other a/c types to fly as well (all included on the frequent flyer rate) and of course you can take the option of night flying at Bournemouth, not available elsewhere in the local area - given the time of year.

Nibbler, I am sure working for Bournemouth flying club hasn't made you biased at all! But why charge membership at all?! How do you justify charging your loyal members?

You are not the only one to give away free tea and coffee - many local schools also give away tea and coffee to their students, not to mention water! So this is no justification for the membership fee!

As for the frequent flyer rate, is this not what Old Sarum flying club did just before they went into liquidation? Same staff and management, same business model and packages - lets hope you don't go the same way for the students and your sake!

In addition, to Old Sarum Flying school, which operate the 2 brand new AT3's, PA28 warriors, Glass cockpit archer and bulldog, there is Airsport UK who operate C42's and a couple of people who do Flex wing training. So lots of veriety.
I have also noticed a lot of bournemouth based instructors come from bournemouth to do their circuits at Old sarum as it is quieter than bournemouth and better value for money. I was waiting for 25 mins the other week to take off at bournemouth :*! That would really annoy me if i had that when i was learning!
I have heard that bournemouth are thinking about stopping circuit training? does anyone know anymore about this?????

Bournemouth do have some longer delays, such as when the Red Arrows are visiting. Shorter delays are experienced more during the week than at the weekends, due to the nature of the commercial traffic in use. The good news is Students and Hirers are charged a flat fee of 0.2 for all taxy - unlike Old Sarum and others who charge chx off to chx on.

In fact just this very morning, as an ex student at Old Sarum, I received their new price list. How the new company managed to get my personal details I am not sure. Is someone is selling my personal information on or has it been obtained by some other means? I am quite concerned about this.

Anyway back to subject. Delays at Bournemouth are possible but not all that common. You are using class D airspace and have the facilities of a commercial airport, communicating with a full ATC service, ADF, NDB, ILS, Night flyng and the like. These facilities are simply not available at places like Old Sarum. However learning to land on grass and using short field techniques is a vital part of any pilot training, hence BFC's use of Old Sarum Airfield. BFC instructors are not using Old Sarum because it's too busy to do CCTS at Bournemouth because, as logic dictates, it would be impossible to send someone solo at Bournemouth it they hadn't trained in the Bournemouth CCT!

As people will know Bournemouth is being expanded with a new terminal building to cope with and encourage a projected increase in commercial aviation. Clearly it will become more difficult to operate out of Bournemouth when the full projected increase in traffic is realised. Even discounting the current economic situation this capacity use is not expected for some years. So the answer is 'not any time soon'.

Good first post. You can only talk with authority on what you know. Any bias would be clearly seen and I do seem to be speaking about facts rather than giving any personal opinion.

It's not my place to justify anything, I don't run or own the place. Care to point me and everyone else here to a flying club that does NOT charge a membership?

The free things mentioned were not a justification for the membership, just another fact.

Just because the frequent flyer idea was used at Old Sarum does not make it a bad idea. Most schools (including Old Sarum) have a bulk buy scheme of some sort.

Some of the people who were at Old Sarum (not all) did indeed move to Bournemouth flying club. This list includes some ground staff, instructors and students and it is continuing to grow all the time. I need a job to pay for my flying and training, Old Sarum had/have nothing on offer, Bournemouth did. QED.

I can't speak for the financial state of BFC but it seems more robust than it was at Old Sarum under the old regime.

Actually I'd rather be back working and flying at Old Sarum - but that's a statement made from the needs of practicality rather than personality, if you get my drift.

Finally back to topic - Bournemouth IMHO be a better option for RMarvin86 given his aims, transport needs and wallet.

Thanks Nibbler, you've add a lot of usefull information on the thread.
Actually I'm more prone to BFC, prices are good, cheaper than where I'm actually flying in Italy and the frequent flyer looks good to build hours and save money. If you're familiar with this programme do you know if it can be purchased by two members who divide costs and flight time?

The frequent flyer rate is a 'single account' based rate and not something you can share. Although it's a fair question and many people have had exactly the same idea!

On occasion you might be able to fly together, with your friend listed as P1, then at the end of the flight request it to be billed to your account. The Ops staff may agree to do this if your request was not a frequent event.

Probably the best person to ask is Vicky from BFC, as she is also sending emails and letters to all ex Old Sarum Flying Club Members.

In response to your comment about being able to fly using commercial airport facilities (ADF, NDB, ILS). For PPL training these are not really a benefit. Unless you have completed some sort of instrument course, they are not much use.

The only reason i enquired about Bournemouth stopping circuits, is that i was speaking with a Bournemouth instructor and he said it was going to happen sooner rather than later.

I can understand 737junkies remarks in respect to the same management staff being at BFC as were at OSFC. However i feel his comments may be slightly unfair.

One last point...A flying school which does not charge a membership fee is OLD SARUM FLYING SCHOOL.

I've not had any communication from Vicky either by e-mail or letter but 2 wrongs don't make it right. If I begin to get angry about it then I'll speak to the Data Protection Registrar.

The question of the radio aids and radar services as a 'benefit' comes in to play when a VFR pilot needs to land and is in visual trouble, when one wishes to train for the IMC/IR or when an IMC/IR pilot wishes to practice and stay current and when a student wants to fly and the instructor needs to know he can get back and land where he started from. In these cases I'd suggest they were a benefit.

I have no idea what information sources or logic this instructor applied to come to this conclusion. The new terminal is not going to be ready for some time, it is not going to be at full operational capacity for some time after it opens and with the current financial situation? - My take on this is 'later rather than sooner'. It may also be significant that people who know far more than I do are investing huge sums into BFC. Would they do so if the future was as bleak as as been suggested?

Well of course 737junkie might be a troll.

The information I was sent does not say a membership fee is NOT payable. It is my mistake to assume there would be but I would have thought they would have made more of not charging one, unless a small membership fee is really not that big a factor?

What the letter tells me is that Old Sarum Flying School has a 2 year lease. Now I don't want to read anything into this.... or jump to any conclusions, look what happened when I did that with membership.

The rate for the PA28 solo is £100 per hour (the cheapest option) but does not include the fuel. The Archer is £140 which would push the price to close to or even over £200 per hour including fuel. What is more these are 'weekday only prices' and it does not say if this includes VAT or not. The PA28 at BFC is £107 per hour including VAT and Fuel. Do the math, but don't forget to add the £95 per year membership to your expected number of yearly hours!

On the plus side...

I like Old Sarum and have respect for the instructors, the airfield and airfield operator and would be there yesterday if there were any chance however the 'tar' of the old regime stuck to others, who carried no responsibility or blame for what happened.

The AT3 is very interesting cheap option given it's aerobatic ability and fuel burn.

And as no one has mentioned it, a big SHOUT OUT that they are having an open day with lots going on which is on the 11th and 12th of October. See you there!

In response to the comment about people's personal data being used, personally i didn't mind but i can understand and agree with Nibbler.

I can confirm that OSFS do not charge a membership fee and i was told they have a rolling lease with 2 years notice which if i understand it correctly means they are here for at least the ne axt 3 years @ worst case.

I have a mental picture of 737junkie in his airline uniform curled up under a bridge now..... rather amusing thought!!!!!! Maybe a view of things to come if XL and the like are the first of many victims of the current climate.

Valid point about the prices, but sounding a lot like an advert sir! I assume those prices are flying the diesel warrior??? There should be a clear destinction here as some people don't like to fly the diesel due to the turbo lag, reduced weight limit and the fact that you have a power lever and thats it, the rest is done on some sort of EFIS system. I don't know that much about the deisel but what i was told i didn't like the sound of, but that is mearly a personal opinion. Im old fassioned and like to be in full control at all times. To clarify all prices @ Old Sarum (OSFS and Airsport UK) include VAT.

Right enough p1_aviator those prices were for the diesel warrior. The petrol (without quoting a price :) ) still works out cheaper. I hoped to balance the price information with the notice of the open day at Old Sarum :)

Just to touch on the diesel engine question.

The engine is managed by 2 FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) computer systems (1 active and 1 spare) with a 2 panel system of LED indicators covering things such as fuel, oil, gearbox oil, water pressures and temps. You have a LED fuel flow indicator, RPM, % thrust and charge. The LED system uses a range of red/amber/green/amber/red position indication lights.

The computer manages the variable pitch of the prop and the mixture making the aircraft noise and fuel efficient. No carb icing to worry about as the engine is fuel injected - to add to efficiency the fuel is pre heated and unburnt fuel is returned to the active tank. The burn rate in a PA28 is around 4.5USG per hour at 75% thrust (100-110kts). The 2.0L C172 is about the same. JET-A1 fuel is cheaper.

A major advantage with the FADEC computer is that you are aware of a problem early and can do something about it, like landing on a runway. In general terms with the petrol the first you know of a problem is when something actually fails and the best field is your only option.

Other than a reduced work load on the pilot another plus is there is little chance of an engine / fuel fire if the aircraft does crash.

On the downside the:
- engine is a little heavier resulting in a slightly reduced load allowance
- climb rate is a little less as well.
- computer is sensitive and it will alert you to 'spikes', however there is a AED / CED reset (if the lights go out then you can continue the flight as normal).
- If the alternator fails and the battery discharges - the engine stops.
- service costs are higher as (currently) the CAA require the gearbox has to be changed every 300 hours
- Low fuel temp can cause plug waxing so on very cold mornings there is little you can do other than wait for things to warm up. Once running icing is not a problem due to the fuel return system.

The conversion training is around 1-1.5 hours ground school and a 30-60 min flight.

Rmarvin86
There is a man called derick davidson at bournemouth, he has his own flying school and hires aircraft at a good price:ok:
If you want he's number P.M me
Cheers Adam.

Definitely true... but airports like Gatwick (250 to 650 pounds), Geneva (30 pounds, including one night parking), Nice (approx. 200 EUR) have slightly more airline trafic that Bournemouth. Anyway, if the requester can get better prices flying a based aircraft, that's good news.

Nope not quite true. Bournemouth home based aircraft either pay the same as visitors or have the privilege of paying 200 times the standard rate for private owners or 400 times for companies for an annual landing concession. The only saving is not having to pay handling fees, providing you have a private parking space that is.

BTW Manchester Airport Group dropped "International" from the Airport's title some years ago. Pity their concerns not to misrepresent didn't extend to their fee structure.

UNless you just happened to load up your account at Old Sarum the day before they went bust.....;)

flyvirgin
 

Check your PM :ok:

RM86

handing over money
 

After reading this thread, I had a look at BFC website and noticed a few familiar faces. It appears that most of the people who worked at Old Sarum Flying Club before it went bankrupt are now all running another flying club, BFC.

After handing over nearly £7000 to these people for a PPL course, and loosing most of it 6 weeks later when they go bankrupt, there is no way I would hand over lump somes of money to these people again. Even if they are at another flying club 'with lots of financial backing'!