Flying Club/tuition shuts down in Aberdeen
 

Unfortunately, the Flying Club at Aberdeen, such as it was, has been shut down. Bit of a no brainer after Signature put the parking fees up 840%.

Email came out on Friday night - the last few sentances sum it up:

"The fact is that large airports and large commercial operators/handling agents simply do not want Flying Clubs on their airports. This massive and unreasonable rent increase reinforces this fact but sadly there is nothing we can do."

At £16+ per touch & go, it's hardly been a hive of training activity anyway with most people going to Inverness/Dundee - but it's a shame, and for everyone still parking there, it's one less voice. Aberdeen must be one of the most isolated places to be a non-group/owning PPL now, with Dundee the nearest bet.

:(

That's life!

The answer is simple, vote with your feet and go somewhere where you will be welcomed as a valuable customer. Aberdeen is a commercial airport and not really suited to the needs of pleasure flying.

There are a few airfields around that are much better suited.

And before someone bangs on about why should they have to travel long distances to fly etc, it's like owning a yacht and living in the middle of the country.....you WILL have to travel.

The other choice of course is to move closer to a nice airfield :)

Oh and lastly I do not live in Aberdeen or work for the airport or Signature.

Fly for fun :) (somewhere nice)

UTF

It's not 'life' it's stupid airport management.

None of these airports are so busy they cannot accomodate GA.

The only one which would qualify for that would be Heathrow, and Gatwick. However Gatwick could easily accomodate GA during its quiet periods (of which it has plenty).

It's the same thing as the yellow jacket attitude. Or ISO9000 :)

Sad to hear the last flying club is closing. It is horrid flying somewhere that you are not welcome and it sounds like we were no longer welcome at Aberdeen. Like the Model club, gliding Club and University air Squadron who moved on years ago (all used to be at Dyce) private flying will survive in another form. I hope some of the displaced aviators will try Deeside Gliding Club and enjoy the challenging and fuel efficient flying that the club and its excellent fleet offer at amazingly low prices in a friendly environment.
b b

Whats happening to the rest of the syndicate and group aircraft parked at the flying club, are they being ousted too?

As far as I know as long as you keep paying the fee's then you can stay.

Very sad, I remember a thriving club with around 200 active member's in the early to mid 90's.

They are betting on the new Donald Trump golf complex, and and they smell the money that they assume will come pouring in with squadrons of Gulfstreams and BBJ's from the States; therefore they really don't want flying club people hanging around. Aberdeen may be pretty busy at the moment with the orgy of oil related flights, but as before, it wont last and will soon return to a barron airfield with the occasional Jetstream from Eastern! Sadly GA will be pretty much gone.

Yeah I remember the last Signature price hike.....strangely enough it was announced the day after Mr Trump proposed his golf course development! There was obviously no option but to oust the local cessna and piper contingent to make way for some heavy metal biz jets and corporate aircraft

So where do you suggest in that area that has a licenced field available for flight training? Or Instrument procedures for IMC ratings etc?

Where else should the members and students go? We aren't talking about the South East of England here.

Greedy airport management and a total lack of understanding of what GA can do for an airport. ABZ isn't exactly the busiest place, so why force off needed revenue?

Oh well, I suppose people will just have to move off to grass strips that while beautiful, tend to be not so great in the middle of a wet Scottish winter.

ABZ
 

I have done some instructing at ABZ and am an FO based there.

It is a sad fact that as commercial aviation becomes busier that large airfields do not want GA there.

I instructed at grampian for a a few months when I got based in ABZ. It did not have any staff or real facilities to operate as a full time school and the student base was my colleagues girlfriend. This, couple with what I understand to be unreasonable price rises proved to be an inevitable outcome.

The problem is that there are no close alternatives. I could only look for part time FI work at dundee ot perth. The drive would be not worth the hassle on my day off. Most FI's know about hanging around a school for 10 hours in the day waiting for the weather to pick up and eventually doing 0-30 minutes of instructing. So, for people wanting to do a PPL on a week-end after working all week the drive on the off chance of a lesson might seem a little too restricting.

Bear in mind that ABZ is very north the landscape cannot accommodate the multitude of airfields that dotted around more temperate regions. Even though this part of the world is stunning to fly around.

I hope that eventually someone will get an airfield near the city of aberdeen , develop it (licensed) and open a club. Although, in reality I do not think that will happen in the near future. If it does happen, I would be the first to throw my FI rating into the in tray.

Signatures price increase has been a major contributor but I also have to say other factors have contributed equally if not more so. I learned at Aberdeen Flying club pre Flight Academy and it was a buzzing organisation with a full time receptionist at the desk, half a dozen instructors with at least two on duty nearly all the time. Weekends were wall to wall bookings for 2 C152's and a C172 both for tuition and gift vouchers.

The Flight Academy fiasco is well documented but even they tried to run it as a club with dedicated instructors and a receptionist.

Grampian basically delayed the inevitable taking over from Flight Academy butr never really established the organisation as a flying club. Although initially there was someone to take bookings etc this seemed to be on a casual basis and gradually it became more and more difficult to get an instructor. The web based booking system they had was excellent for PPL's who hire and I used them quite a bit during the last year for rental of the Warrior. However given the reduction of any structure as a club to zero it has become difficult if not impossible to get any training and Gift Vouchers often having to wait some time for an instructor to get their flight. In addition quite a few of the regular renters have joined groups removing that income stream. Throw the recent weather into the mix and suddenly the Signature cost becomes a major factor with little income.

Their email mentions that they have managed to operate in profit until the last quarter but flying out of ABZ in another synidicate I can see how infrequently the Warrior is flown these days and it seems that with little income stream closure was inevitable.

I just hope this does not spell the beginning of the end for GA in Aberdeen - as well as being a terrific place to fly around, the training and experience that you get flying in this environment is excellent.

Sad news indeed. As mentioned by others, where else can one go within a reasonable travelling time? Deeside, Dundee, Longside and Insch (?) are all one hour plus in the car.
When I trained at Aberdeen, Montrose and Fordoun were available and were ideal for circuit training.
Considering the changeable weather in that part of the Country, GA needs dependable access to approach aids.

Since about 1990 Aberdeen has seen about seven different owners of the flying school/club, some good, some bad and one in particular very well documented on here in recent years! But the same problems beset them all, busy airport with long times spent holding at busy periods, high fuel prices, lost flying days because of poor weather or wind direction and runway orientation, lack of local maintenance etc etc.

My friends at Grampian new that something had to change for any sort of club to survive, they tried to reduce costs by not employing full time office staff and instructors. The hourly rate did go up by quite a lot more than in previous years and indeed compared to other schools, so they tried to offset that by at least providing members with what they had been asking for, two fairly nice PA28's. They had been growing bored with old C150's and 152's. It was never going to be as busy a school as it had been in it's hey day in the early 90's, but the aim was to try and hang on in there, keep GA alive in ABZ, at least until they were thrown out by the Airport for good. They were managing this, only just, and I'm sure would have continued to do so for as long as people wanted to rent the aircraft or have the occasional lesson. Sadly as mentioned above, the fuel prices, parking and landing charges became too much for anybody to cope with.

If only somebody could turn the old RAF Edzell site back into a nice little GA airfield. I reckon it would do well. Well away from controlled airspace, close to Aberdeen and Dundee, lovely tarmac runways, no BAA, no commercial ATC and you could even attract smaller biz jet aircraft in.

We can but dream

P.S I should add, that in fairness to Signature, the previous owners of the school shafted them for over 8k in unpaid fuel charges then buggered off leaving a trail of destruction behind them all the way to the central belt! I suspect that a fair bit of damage was caused by that incident and probably tarnished the reputation of light aviation in these parts.

Very sad news. Yet another flying club needlessly shafted by small-minded airport management and "handling" parasites.

Signature of course at their very best. :rolleyes:

Just a wee thought to ponder: with airport charges ever-increasing, what can we do to fight this? I fear that as a minority we (i.e. GA) would seem to be devoid of a voice and certainly too small to be taken notice of by business. However surely we can collectively stand up and put up a fight instead of sitting moaning here on PPRuNE? Many commercial operators are sick of high charges so why doesn't aviation collectively take a stand against it?

Smithy

One would think if the fuel was supplied through the FBO it would be in their interest for the club to keep going.
After all 2% of something is better than 100% of bugger all.
DO.

I agree Signature appear to be looking to concentrate on the bizjets, assuming Trumpie gets his golfing utopia & assuming they will come if permission to build is given. With Nicklaus & Lawrie also building courses, Signature maybe think it'll be bizjet heaven at ABZ! :rolleyes:

Perhaps Signature are expecting a bizzie boom from when BA pull out of ABZ as is the rumour! :}

Heh heh! Perhaps.

One thing I have never understood is why is GA (the light end, not BizJets) regarded as such a nuisance at bigger airfields? I understand concerns about approach traffic etc. - it's no mean feat mixing SEPs with 757s and Dash-8s - but surely this is not the sole reason? The ATC controllers at EDI do a wonderful job of mixing light aircraft with the heavies and it all works well.

What was Signature's reason for the 840% hike in price? Did they give a reason?

It's more about image! :ok:

Has AOPA been approached about this?

Rod1

Hi All

Was in ABZ (handled by Signature) the other day. Crap weather was clearing late afternoon enough for a PA28-161 to go off with a PPL checkout, so I guess they are still renting out there.

There are 2 small offices in the Signature 'FBO' - AKA portakabin - for the GA operation to use I belive. It's a shame that the GA guys and girls are being ousted here as there really are no other local options. :ugh:

As a bizjet pilot (and GA instructor) Signature - if you are charging all of this money to GA why not cut the grass in front of your extensively refurbished 'FBO'... It would help the GA guys and look better to your bizjet passengers and crews upon arrival.

Good luck to all of you GA people in ABZ.

If the numbers I was told are true then the increase in cost for the Flying Club per month (840%) equated to approx one hours flying revenue. If that is true - is that alone really enough to put the club out of business?

Little infrastructue in place for training, no one manning the desk to take bookings / calls, no full time instructors, ad hoc instructors who have other flying jobs so difficult to get a hold of, cost of fuel and cost of lessons / renting club aircraft, decreasing client base ....... Hmmm :hmm:

I also am not sure that Signature are the main culprit. As noted above the 'club' has had more owners than my grandad's shovel had handles. Mostly it has been run as a sideline by people with an aviation interest but no overwhelming drive. So depending who was in charge things have varied immensely.

Its last silver-ish era was when Bill Hendersen managed it for Tayside but that unfortunately is a long time ago.

Signature themselves probably barely have a business if it were not for the fuel. However hopefulyl someone will step up to the plate and try and make a go of it....

I hope your right but I cant see anybody else trying now! The most active part of the flying club was always in the lounge, nowadays that option is not open!

I noticed the article about the club's closure in tonights Evening Depress, the journo's in Aberdeen have obviously found pprune as they quoted replies from this thread once or twice! ;)

P.S If it's where Aberdeens self proclaimed 'Aviation Expert-Jim Ferguson' gets his info then can I just say now that you are a complete tw:mad:

Ah youngskywalker, you need to meet that gentleman in the flesh and then understand his background.

I have and I must admit I was genuinely shocked (which takes a bit these days!). Living proof that journalism really is dead (well actually just staffed by the ignorant and the lazy who are loking for something to copy and paste) and hence the rise of the pundit.

Indeed, I've been on the receiving end of his journalistic talents, or lack thereof. I really hope I never meet him!

I'm fairly confident that he will read this too!:ok:

This is a great shame but sadly it had to be on the cards for some time though. I initially learned to fly in Aberdeen and once I got my commercial licence I spent a period instructing there which on reflection is some of the most fun I have had in my flying career since I started. I continued to do it part time once I stepped into the airline world too. Memories of turning final over the cricket pitch for Runway 34 as well as other 'exploits' will be remembered for some time! It was a great place to work at and the flying was great as well. However the social side was just as good and that is what it will be remembered for most of all!

Would these "exploits" include Formation flying C152's in a flypast at ABZ ..... you really had to be there to believe someone had the brass neck to ask ATC for it!

There is no problem :p ... it was tongue in cheek to an ex instructor. Thanks for clarifying the ATC position chapter and verse though:ok:

Aaaaahhhhh Memories.

Sad to hear the news....I helped build the clubhouse structure in the late eighties (Pegasus days). Anyone wish to guess which Hotel in Aberdeenshire the bar came frrom ??? :)

Given Peter Forbes care with his money (but not other peoples'), I'm guessing it was 'acquired'.

How and where I'd be interested to know!

Hmm, at a guess I'd say the Dyce Skean Dhu? I helped build the briefing rooms about 8 years ago!

The 'bar' was only recently ripped out by Signature in an attempt to make the place look more business like, for the crews from the vast squadrons of Gulfstreams we have now! :ok:

The Bar

Well, Peter knew that the Thainstone House Hotel was getting a revamp, and the bar was getting ripped out, so a trusty band consisting of a couple of club regulars , a joiner, and myself (weekend fueller, plane cleaner, will do anything for flying hours, etc.) were despatched off to Inverurie on a "search and rescue" mission to "bring it home." Once installed, it actually looked good at the back end of the room.

Anybody know what happened to it when Signature ripped it out......maybe worth giving the Thainstone a call to see if they want it back !!!! :p :p

This is so sad. I've just heard that all the light aircraft are being chucked out of Longside too.
NS

Sad news but not surprising in todays GA climate.
I also learned to fly at Aberdeen Flying School at the end of the nineties and early millenium, in fact I was brought up just around the corner and can not imagine passing by without seeing light aircraft parked up.

Its not as if theres loads of space on the apron for Bizzies beyond Echo 1, I wouldve thought they would be better off keeping a few wee toys there and get some form of income from it but then again I do not know the whole story.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about ABZ not being that busy, reffering also to the London airports, are they forgetting the offshore heli traffic?

Anyway sorry to hear the news, good luck everyone in relocating.....

Unless someone knows something I don't! ..... GA is NOT being thrown out of ABZ ..... no one that I know of is "relocating" ..... the Flying Club has closed down as it was economically unviable partially caused by an increase in costs levied by Signature and probably more importantly not alot of customers willing (or able) to pay £190 per hour plus £21 landing fee .... IF they could find an instructor. The remaining private aircraft and flying groups can park on the Apron if they wish to stay although they too have to pay the new rate.

Sadly, because they have nowhere near here to relocate to, or I'm sure they all would!

The guys at Signature are all nice people, I'm sure it's not been done out of malice towards the club, just a change of direction now that the airport has expanded and become too busy. Even the commercial helicopter companies struggle to get circuit training done without huge delays, hence the investment in new simulators up here.

For me, it's worth the drive to Dundee, only £140 per hour to hire an aerobatic grob, and no landing fee. Amazing that a little city like Dundee has had such a successful flying club for so many years. I guess partly due to a smaller GA airport, no controlled airspace and also the air cadet contract which has kept the money flowing in. If only Aberdeen had a suitable alternative airfield near by, with the money up here I'm sure it would do okay, just look at how busy HJS helicopters are at Peterculter.

I have fond memories of my PPL training at the club back in 2000. Although I never managed to complete my training the instructors were great and the banter was superb.

NorthSouth - what is happening at Longside then?

Just out of interest, what kind of prices would you pay to park an aircraft at other airports? Is £200pcm/£2.4k pa high, or in line with other places?

papa600

I may have been involved in some of the formation flying activities! ;) Not sure why a brass neck was needed since we were simply enjoying our flying and all these activities were done when we were on our own! However quite a few of my exploits were done in order to get me out of the road at the request of ATC. :ok: Looking back I am glad that I have these memories of happy times at the 'Flying Club' since as I said, they are the most fun days of my flying career and that is now after nearly 5 years of airline flying.

One of the funniest stories involved a few of my former colleagues who were flying together and were returning to Aberdeen from Dundee (from memory) on a maintenance ferry flight. To add some spice to the flight, they thought they would fly below radar cover right until they reached the zone boundary near Portlethen and then pull up into radar cover and contact ATC just before they entered controlled airspace for joining clearance. For some of the trip they were possibly looking up at the tops of the cliffs as they tracked north whilst offshore. ;) After pulling up into radar cover and making contact on 'Aberdeen Approach', one of my former colleagues asked the ATCO (who they knew and lived on the coast near Stonehaven) how long he knew about them before they called up and was expecting to be told that the poor ATCO had no warning whatsoever due to no radar cover! They were obviously a tad surprised when the ATCO remarked that he had been expecting them for a few minutes before they called, however the ATCO remarked that his wife had phoned him at work and commented that she had just looked out of the house and seen a light aircraft level with the house whilst plodding up the coast!

Priceless....

move don't close
 

Why not move the flying club to Fordoun or Edzell ? Possibly share one of the above airfieldswith microlights, parachutists, gliders and models ? It would be much more fun .

bb

Sad to hear the club is closing. I converted my Aussie licence to a UK licence there in the late nineties with Bill Anderson - a real gentleman. The club was friendly and flying in Scotland was a fantastic experience. I loved flying G-NERI before someone ran it out of fuel and wrote it off... Regards, Anthony Quick