LARS, Farnborough
 

Just got back from a tour of NATS, LARS operation at Farnborough arranged by Dept CFI at White Waltham.

Fascinating place. New Tower is very impressive and so was the team that explained the increased LARS range , now extending as far north as Cambridge and as Far East as just west of Lydd, soon to be extended all the way to the coast covering Southend and Manston.

Very helpful controllers and a very informative and great tour.

If only they answered the radio when you call them.

I tried a couple of weeks ago to use them for the first time. Actually gave it a few more calls than the prescribed three I should have before I gave up (wanted to give them a chance) and even called Headcorn to check that I'd written the frequency down correctly, which I had.

When I landed, an Instructor and another pilot said that they'd both tried to use them earlier in the week with no success.

I tried.

I'm afraid I had the same experience as Jollyrog - called them three times, then called the old Farnborough freq. to be told 'try Luton'. Not very helpful. (Luton was helpful, but they shouldn't need to be...)

Tim

Check your notams.....
 

...whilst the service is good and very welcome, there have been a number of notams about the issue of service outages at short notice due staffing.

I'm sure once it settles down the service will be crackin!

Top effort.

Only on quiet days..... when the sun is shining and everybody is out then a request for a RIS is often met with FIS due controller workload/radar clutter/poor radar performance or some other random excuse.

Sorry to say that the days you really need it, when the sky is black with PA28s out of EGTB and EGLM, you don't get it.

Sorry to rain on the parade. I'm sure everyone is doing their best, its just it never works out quite how you need it.

On the day in question, I had checked my NOTAMs. Nothing mentioned.

If they're going to be unreliable, I'd much rather stick with the reliable FIS we get from Shoreham, Lydd and Manston.

Jollyrog....

Never used East, just North and Classic and have to say whenever I've wanted them to provide a RIS always been there, sure there are times when they're busy and Sunday afternoon with all the weekend traffic isn't the time to talk to them.

Would have much preferred the '0013' Luton approach where I know they're watching and they know I'm listening. :D

"Only on quiet days..... when the sun is shining and everybody is out then a request for a RIS is often met with FIS due controller workload/radar clutter/poor radar performance or some other random excuse.

Sorry to say that the days you really need it, when the sky is black with PA28s out of EGTB and EGLM, you don't get it...."

Sounds like Brize, Benson and the reason why Luton stopped LARS service. :(

Excellent service when it works, but so far, really unreliable and not necessarily NOTAM'd in time.

Coming round the zone from Biggin-Denham the other day, called Thames Radar who said 'Negative FIS, contact Farnborough Radar on...no, hang on, I've just been told thy're off the air, you have Flight Information Service'
I said 'Flight info thanks, I can't work out when Farnborough are available'
'You and me. both!' he said.

I've tried using the service when instructing. Great when transiting to and fro the training area, but when you're doing stalling & trying to talk to the student etc it just gets in the way. We do most of our upper air work north of Aylesbury, on the edge of their cover anyway. I usually call Halton there so I can find out what glider traffic might be about, difficult to spot visually and tends not to show up on Radar anyway.

TheOddOne

Glad you enjoyed the tour, :ok: the manning is on unit for the full operation of all the LARS sectors but training needs to be done to get all the extra staff, me included, valid on all the sectors before we can open all the time I'm afraid.
As for the comment about wanting to be left alone whilst doing your stalls etc fair comment, my main instructor is making it very clear to me that when you ask for a FIS that's what you want, hopefully the culture will spread out more across the unit.

No complaints here. Had the service each time its been requested and I usually tell them its a training sortie, general handling between Aylesbury and Westcott up to 5,000' so they know I'm going to be going up, down, left, right and inside out and without warning. They've always assigned me a squawk and provided an excellent service so keep up the good work, guys (not heard any gals yet!).

There's at least one I've talked to.

TOO

SH - when will it be fully manned?

A lot of people rightly commented about the no-notice closures that mean that they don't call anymore, already.

Otherwise, keep up the good work. When it is open the resulats speak for themselves, pilots get a better service, TC Approach frequencies are more manageable and airspace infringements are being prevented which helps everyone.

Alan it depends on if the trainees are brilliant or muppets like myself! :E

I diligently checked my NOTAMs on Monday and no mention of Farnborough East being off the air, but it was when I needed it...:suspect:

This is another example of NATS triumph of style over substance. The LARS service is announced with great publicity and fanfare implying the possibility of a RAS or RIS around the London TMA which is certainly a very worthwhile idea. The service as it is at the moment is not good enough. It closes at very short notice sometimes without NOTAM action. If it is open it will only provide FIS as its main rationale is to stop infringements of CAS around the London area not to provide a RIS or RAS as advertised. If you ask for any information (Weather, Danger area activity, etc) you are told to contact London Information who have all that information to hand. I have also been given an instruction to turn or to climb or descend by Farnborough when being provided with a FIS in Class G airspace when returning to Goodwood, How does that work?
I know that this is none of the fault of the staff who are working under the control of accountants and all that that implies.
Given the clear inadequacy and erractic opening hours of the Farnborough LARS the obvious conclusion is that pilots will not bother using it even if it is open which makes me think why did they bother?

In my experience, Farnborough LARS will sometimes ask in a "can you accept?" type of way if you wouldn't mind a temporary heading/level change, if it will help de-conflict you from their many IFR arrivals and departures (some of whom don't have the best English or understanding of the difference between a RIS and RAS, for example!)

Having also visited them and sat with the controllers on a sunny Saturday afternoon, I can well see the challenge of vectoring jet traffic through very busy class G, lots of it not talking to them, not squawking (or even if they are, not verified etc).

Hope the SSR still doesn't drop out fairly regularly like it kept doing on the day I visited as well (just to make life easier ;))

"I can well see the challenge of vectoring jet traffic through very busy class G"

Are you serious? You make it sound like we're all playing in the same big sandpit. I'm sure it would be an issue if Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, Stansted and City didn't have CTA/R protection and NATS deemed it essential to ensure separation, but they do have their own airspace to play in!

It's not as though we currently have jet traffic buzzing around below the London TMA at 2000' mixing it with the Cessna and Piper traffic! :confused: The only stuff I sometimes hear/see is going into Southend.

Mike Hotel, you forget we also have an increase Heli traffic in the SE.

LARS now uses primary amd secondary Radar.

Quite frankly they do a great job with a very small team!!!

MH,

EGLF has annual movements of around 28,000 per annum at the moment, the bulk of which are jets and which have to get in to and out of the airways system to and from EGLF outside controlled airspace... so, err, there is rather a lot of jet traffic up to 737 size buzzing about below the TMA in that neck of the woods.

Oh, and Lasham has quite a few jet movements as well.

What Roffa says :ok:

But I think that EGLF has just had permission to double its movements... so MikeHotel152, keep your eyes open!

:confused: I thought this discussion (and hence my earlier comment) was about the intermittent nature of the new Farnborough LARS services North and East of London. In our neck of the woods, we don't have much low-level jet traffic but we do have the occasional helicopter at 800' where Farnborough probably can't see them!

Don't worry chaps, I always keep my eyes wide open, especially around the south-west of London! :sad: I flew Compton Abbas to Fairoaks and Biggin the other day and Farnborough West were very busy due to a heck of lot of light aircraft, gliders and microlights around West and SW London. I can imagine getting a Citation through that lot might have been interesting!

Silenthandover,

I must admit that as much as Farnborough are generally always helpful and always very busy I do feel that quite often they are TOO helpful.

I spend many a day briefing my students as to the facets of FIS and then when working Farnborough they often use R/t phraseology that sounds very similar to a RIS.

Such as "G####, you are identified, traffic similar level passing down your righthand side altitude un-verified, Flight Information Service......."

Now wea are all human and I would suspect if I was sat at the scope, my natural reaction would be to tell pilots what they may not see themselves. Its all part of duty of care etc. However this does semm to breed a culture amoungst us pilots that a FIS is more than it is.

Maybe if LARS units made an uncomfortable stance by NOT telling pilots of other traffic "on radar" etc then it may free you up to give genuine RIS to people that request it?? At least us pilots would then be getting a FIS "as advertised". Don't get me wrong I love all the info - thankyou very very kindly. However it maybe doing more harm than good.

I have noted of late that a much better phrase is being used - "numerous contacts believed to be in your area, altitudes and types unknown". You have provided a FIS by law and got the sphincter contracting of the pilot - at last - THEY LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!

Any information regarding relative bearing obtained using a radar set is Radar Information. If such radar information is provided as a service then that service is a Radar Information Service. The Pilot/Controller agreement is required to reflect that. It is perfectly clear from definition that Flight Information Service is a non-radar service. Why, then, are the two services confused so often by air traffic service providers? Do some not understand the difference? If they do and elect to upgrade the service at their own instigatation then the service should be upgraded accordingly for the duration of the upgrade no matter how long or short. Either it is a radar service or it is not. There should be no doubt as to which service is being provided either in the mind of the service recipient or the service provider.

Flight Information Service IN THE UK is supposedly non - radar, but according to ICAO and some European countries, radar can be used.

Fact to many pilots head down GPS tracking, the Cirrus effect, lovely glass screen but for God's sake LOOK OUT THE GOD DAMN WINDOW

"Flight Information Service IN THE UK is supposedly non - radar, but according to ICAO and some European countries, radar can be used."

This is still a grey area even in the proposed new ATSOCA names and procedures coming soon.
:confused:

Basic Service - Controllers and FISOs may provide a Basic Service. Controllers may utilise ATS surveillance system derived information in the provision of a Basic Service.

Still a grey area IN THE UK because the powers that be choose to ignore the guidance in ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11, which descibes the use of radar in the provision of both Flight Information Service and Air Traffic Advisory Service.

In the traditional British way, the CAA consulted to death rather than just implement the international standard/recommended practice. Go to various places in Europe and get a FIS which, remarkably, resembles our RIS. :\

Tried them again yesterday. Nowt.

One day, one day...

They were working well today, though they couldn't upgrade me from FIS to RIS due to the Heathrow RADAR head being down for maintenance. (Was doing an IMC detail, in the soup, so RIS would have been more appropriate). Having said that, I was given a few contacts to be aware of. Another a/c in the area also had me on their TCAS. I guess we could have just had a chat amongst ourselves and sorted out which bit of the cloud layer we each wanted to use!

I try to use the service every time I leave the circuit, provided it's within their watch times. I just wish everyone in the area would call, so that the service is comprehensive. I happened to mention the other day that it was fairly quiet, the resonse was
'there's a lot out there, but not talking to me'.
'Shame', I said.

TheOddOne

At various times today I worked a total of 4 Hawks, 2 Gnats, 1 Strikemaster, 1 Hunter, 1 Tornado and 1 Harrier all doing more than 250kts. With traffic like that flashing about under the LTMA, it's in your best interests to give us a call!!

> it's in your best interests to give us a call!!

I did, but as before, I didn't get any answer. Called 4 times, gave up and went back to Headcorn.

I wil try again next time though.

Lurking 123 has a good point . . .fly through Germany or France and the FIS service is radar all the way (Germany is particularly brilliant - more like a personal back-up service . . . if only that were the case here!!)

Coming back from a recent trip to Hungary (radar FIS), via Austria (radar FIS), Germany and France (both radar FIS as stated), it was a real let down entering London Information (no radar) to be asked to repeat the standard mantra that "I acknowledge that I will avoid controlled airspace" etc etc. What a load of boll**ks. This is just a stupid sop instigated by their 'health & safety' advisor - but what is the point of this nonsense ?? :ugh: Either I have prepared properly for the flight and know exactly where I am and what height/route to follow or I am a total imbecile (who forgot to check sufficient fuel for flight, left the gear down, doors open, flys open etc) in which case what the hell does it matter if I confirm back that all will be fine . . . .as i'm going to bust airspace anyway !! :\

What a pleasure it was to get shot of them just past Lydd and to switch to the new Farnborough East frequency. It may not be nation wide (as it is in the rest of Europe as far as I can tell), but it was a great service gratefully received in v.busy airspace. I vote for them taking over the rest of the country ASAP and confining London Information to the knackers yard.

(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime :ok: )

Hi Drambuster i will pass your Feedback to the ATSAs at Swanwick who work the FIR position - a very profeesional bunch who are very limited in what they can provide because the CAA will not allow them to use radar to provide their service.:rolleyes:

Quote...."
(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime )Unquote

Thanks for the kind remarks....we are only doing the same as London but not as busy and therefore able to give a bit more time to our customers!!:ok:

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Went for the £100 coffee at Andrewsfield on Thursday and making my way back to our strip near Cambridge I wondered which of the various services to use. In the end I squawked 0013 and listened out on Essex on the basis that the airpace is down to 1500ft and I didn't want to infringe. Would I have been better off with Farnborough East, assuming they were operational?

Shockingly perhaps, I do belive the Uk is the only country, in Europe at least, which define different levels of FIS. In my neck of the woods VFR flights can only get FIS, and it is (rulebook wise) no business of the pilot how the information is obtained by the ATSU. (In practice it does of course)

But then we have airspace structure a bit closer to common practice in the civilized parts of the world ;)

We let the airspace class dictate the service

Thanks for all the comments about the Farnbrough LARS Service, we are working hard to fully train the last few team members and closures should reduce.

We are having some difficulties with low level RTF coverage on the North sector and our engineers are investigating it to see what we can do to improve it.

One difficulty for us is, if you call and can't be heard, we don't know. If this happens and you have the time it would be really helpful if you could drop us an email at [email protected] and let us know brief details of location, height and route please.

Come next April FIS, RIS and RAS will be a thing of the past......checkout your ATSOCA review briefing material!!:ok: