Health & Safety High VIZ jkts
 

http://www.healthandsafety-nuts.com

I am getting fed up of Health And Safety Fascists lording it about at regional airports and now airfileds.

Get a life!!:sad:

They behave like traffic Wardens with new hats:}

Shoreham before Christmas unbelievable.:ugh:

Blackpool airport not allowed to walk to our aircraft with a bottle of water!!??:=

Enforcement of wearing high viz jackets to get to your aircraft.

Reminds me of the story about Government Information films of the 70's

"Wear something white at night", and a guy got knocked down by a snow plough:mad:

Yep, It drives us all mad but we just have to get on with it.

Sorry, but that is the silly life we have to lead now.


Regards
Exeng

Got a message at work the other week.....

"Crews have been seen on the ramp in Geneva without high viz jackets...."

So what's the problem then?:E

and with full uniform on in the hotel at breakfast

Here is a picture of what I wore when I was flying in the Airshows in Europe as an air display pilot.....

Note that flight suit is blaze orange one of the most visible colors on the planet.....

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ifiKate033.jpg

One day I had just finished flying my routine at an airshow and was walking across the ramp in my flight suit....some fu.kin moron ramp nazi came up to me and told me I was not allowed to walk unescorted on the ramp without a green hi viz vest.....

I'm so happy to be out of aviation, the inmates are now running the asylum in aviation.

Chuck-which one is you?

That is my wife in the high viz vest.:ok:

Attending to someone who has been hit down without wearing a Hi Viz tabard on an airfield certainly changed my view many years ago on wearing hi viz. Although a degree of discression should be allowed such as when a group of crew walk across the apron with Hi Viz tabards on & one member in the middle has not got one on, as long as they stay close together, they will probably get away with it on this occaison, after all Pax supervised by Hi Viz Ramp agents don't have to wear them, crew are required to especially doing their walk around checks with equipment in use servicing their aircraft.
I frequently hear crew say "OK what have we done wrong now?" as I walk up the steps to speak to the them.
I agree there are some heavy handed Ramp safety teams around who tend to be over the top.

That is because pax are generally walking on prescribed marked walkways.

You know at the end of the day flying is a discipline and some pilots just cannot comply with rules and regulations they do not agree with. If they replaced High Vis jackets with captains jackets and 4 gold stripes I wonder how many would complain then?

With this kind of logic, you would advocate the wearing of hi-viz vests on any public road then ? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Get a life :yuk: (which is something the H&S morons obviously lack)

Since I nearly took out a pedestrian wearing a black hat, black jacket and black trousers on an unlit country road the other night I don't think that's an entirely stupid suggestion!!!! - coz there are morons out there who seem to have forgotten the old "wear somthing light at night" adverts

HI-VIS
 

It is the usual nanny state thing produced by H&S experts and enforced by jobsworths.

This all comes about due to the state having to find employment for the people who can't do anything productive, H&S and Security are the easy place to put these pepole to keep them out of the unemployment statistics.

This would not be a problem if only they could see that we are being kind to them by giving them something to do all day. But NO they are so stupid that they have let the power go to the head and all become as my grandma would say "little Hitlers".

On a dark night on a busy ramp I can see the need for the Hi-VIS but on a summers day at Kemble ? I think not!!

Yes, I would! There was a lad tragically killed on the M40 last weekend. He stepped out of a car that had been involved in an accident and was struck by another passing vehicle. I believe it was dark at the time, stand to be corrected.

One of the more dangerous places to work on the planet is on the hard shoulder of a motorway. Formal work sites are now carefully segregated; you see signs saying 'lane closed for protection of workforce', but collecting and putting out road works signs kills workers every year. They reckon you've got about 20 mins on a motorway hard shoulder before your vehicle will be struck. That's why it's better to get out of the vehicle (nearside) and sit up the bank.

We kill more pedestrians on British roads than most other European contries, sadly many of them are children. Partly this is vehicle drivers going too fast for the conditions and partly pedestrians not taking due care for themselves. 'Wear something white at night' is STILL good advice, it doesn't snow very much any more!

There are only H&S 'morons' because the drivers of vehicles and planes are even more moronic. Like Ranger 1, I've had to attend serious injuries airside; it ain't pleasant and mostly caused by people failing to take good care. ANYTHING that can bring a pedestrian to a driver's attention is a good thing. The construction industry, after mining, used to be the most dangerous place to work in the UK. Decades of hard work by the H&S people have transformed it. You NEVER see someone working on a site now without a hard hat on. It's part of the culture; you don't hear the word 'moron' associated with H&S in the construction industry. The H&SE now deem working airside is more dangerous than working on a building site.

We like to thnk of ourselves as safety-conscious in aviation, what with our pre-flight checks and approved maintenance and all. We've a ways to go in cultural acceptance of basic safety outside the aircraft.

No, I don't wear a hi-viz at small grass airfields, but as soon as you move up to bigger places, on it goes. Perhaps we SHOULD all the time, everywhere, so it becomes as natural as breathing.

TheOddOne

The dangers of Nylon Hi-Viz Jackets:

Unrecognized by propellers but strong enough to pull you into one if it gets caught!
Generates static electricity - ideal for use near AVGAS!
Highly flammable; would not be allowed in household furnishings because its not safe!
Fuses with skin when it burns!

Surely there is a case to conduct a Risk Assessment and have them banned from the vicinity of Propellers and Av Gas in the interest of Health and Safety!

Whopity,

You're prejudging the outcome of the Risk Assessment, not a good frame of mind in which to conduct one!

You're absolutely right about the dangers of wearing clothing that isn't secure around moving machinery. ANY clothing, hi-viz or not, should be secured, especially around props. One Handling Agent at LGW makes it a disciplinary offence not to have a hi-viz tabard secured. Apart from being caught up in machinery, it makes the jacket much less visible if it's not done up properly at the front.

All AVGAS fuel deliveries to a/c should be conducted in accordance with standard safety measures, which includes bonding the a/c and the pump/vehicle to a common earth. If you're holding the nozzle, you will be at the same static level, surely? I see lots of man-made fibre clothing being worn by pilots; how about making a strict rule that the ONLY clothing, hi-viz or no, should be wool or cotton, including underwear (the RAF do, I believe)

TheOddOne

The Hi Viz vest debate continues....

To the chaps saying they have attended rampside injuries I have some simple questions -was the unfortunate person hit by an aeroplane, or a vehicle? Was it at a GA aerodrome or a major airport? Was it a bright sunny day or miserable/dark?

Anyone with half a brain knows that common sense should prevail for the "do I wear a Hi-vis vest" question. You land at Gatwick/Manchester/Birmingham where there are probably more ramp vehicles than aeroplanes - putting on a vest might be a good idea when you dismount your steed!! White waltham, Barton, Shoreham maybe one vehicle (if any) airside and likely to be a bright red fire truck/landrover at that - not necessary!!

Even at the Regional airports like Blackpool or Norwich - just how many vehicles are there? I cant help but think that its more about separating commercial pax from airport autherised people.Remember, get a Hi-Vis vest and a clipboard and you will not be acosted for anything , anywhere.....

All I can add is thank god its not reached aerodromes here....yet!!

Regards, SD..

H & S No help at all!
 

I have to take issue with the odd one on the usefulness of the H&S industry within aviation industry.

Long before any one had invented the H&S executive the aviation industry had a very strong safety culture, in twenty years on the ramp at LHR I only enountered three seious injurys, none of these could have been prevented buy HI VIS or any of the H&S regulations. All the inccidents came down to the person who was injured doing something that was stupid and could not be legislated for.

After one innccident we had the H&S people all over the opperation making up rules and producing lots of paperwork, the problem was that filling out all the new forms was taking peoples minds off the job and increasing the risk not reducing it!

The contribution by H&S to my workplace in terms of safety has been negative, people have been lulled into a sence of security and distracted by the paperwork.

I made all the people in my team fully aware that it was down to them to keep themselfs and there workmates safe and no matter how much paperwork was heaped apon us to think first and do the H&S paperwork only when you were sure that it was safe to be distracted by nif-naff and trivia.

I can see the numptys with the clipboards squeeling at my attitude to them but the only think that I can say in my defence.............. in twenty years my team had a ZERO accident rate and only a few of the minor cuts and bumps that go with aircraft engineering in a ramp enviroment.

Completely disagree. What we have to do is stand up to the 'Little Hitlers' who invent rule after rule to rule us at their whim.

You compare people working on a Motorway with the poor chap who got out of his car in an accident. Two different things, no ?

If that was the case, the world's freeways would be littered with smoldering wrecks, one every three miles or so..... :E

Nobody doubts the wisdom of hi-viz on a construction site (lots of machinery, heavy loads being moved around, etc) or in a mine. By the same token it makes sense to wear them on the ramp of a busy airport. On a GA field? Get real !

@ various on this thread: put the ego down and step away.

I can't help recalling from my Human Performance studies that an anti-authority, anti-discipline, anti-rule attitude is not consistent with safe flying.

<go on, flame me>

It appears to me that many of these superficially unneccessary rules exist to save us from our own mistakes, and those of others: we're all fallible. Even me. I'm not advocating safety measures where they're clearly inappropriate or even counter-productive, but as TheOddOne explains, H&S stuff is generally there for good reason. Occasionally it gets applied absurdly by an individual of small brain: unless it causes dramatically counter-productive hazard, or is consistently mis-applied, I guess the only sane response is to be the bigger person and try to get over it.

I big part of this debate is people responding emotionally or in fear of a negligence prosecution rather than rationally minimising risk.
For example, the above is emotional and while 20 minutes before an object on the motorway hard shoulder is hit is probably an exaggeration, my work experience suggests spending time in a car on the hard shoulder of a motorway is a great way to get killed (having seen this several times).

On the other hand, the High Viz at GA airport trend in the UK can not be addressing any realistic risk. Particularly relative to the risk of being hit in the airport's parking lot.

On the flip side, working near a large aircraft at night with half a dozen powered pieces of equipment, turbine noise, and heavy objects being lifted in the air does seem to have very real risks of deafness, being struck by a vehicle or having ones foot crushed by cargo, a bag, or a wheel - Hence high viz, ear defenders, and toetectors (and maybe even hard hats if there are things being handled above people).

I doubt anyone can come up with an example of a real safety issue at a GA airport where high viz would have made a difference

That is just not true anymore, these days an awful lot of HS&E is a paperwork excercise there to cover someones arse, be it an individual or a company/corperation.

Safety is a culture, and it should be an individual decision making process as to whether or not to carry out an operation based on the info at hand, not whether a book in an office says its OK or not. The problem is when people are not smart enough to be able to make decisions - but you cannot legislate against stupidity!!

Anyone who has worked in the oil industry around the world for the last 10 years as I have knows the difference between good safe practices/a good safety culture at work and arse covering....believe me!!

Regards, SD..

Yes. To all of the above.

It is impossible to quantify, as someone said earlier, the number of injuries saved by people wearing hi-viz. Likewise I've seen people lying in a pool of their own blood wearing hi-viz.

Sometimes, and contrary to A and C's experience, the injured party is the innocent bystander. Most often, they are at the end of a chain of events where there has been a systematic failure to observe safe working practices. You don't catch all of these by wearing hi-viz, but objecting to do so sometimes exposes a culture opposed to safety - the 'rebel without a cause' syndrome.

As I've just said above, I don't see the need for hi-viz at a small grass strip but it's really not that big a deal, y'know to just wear one to and fro the a/c when the aerodrome ask you to.

One point I WILL make, though, is pilots who forget to take them off once inside the a/c. I seem to recall a recent AAIB report where someone claimed to have been distracted by sunlight shining off the hi-viz of another occupant of the a/c. Also, they tend to be uncomfortable in warm weather; I know, I used to have to drive round all day wearing one!

TheOddOne

This http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...igh+visibility is worth a browse through.

Wait until they begin insisting on hard hats.

I nearly hit an army soldier out jogging, he had all dark clothing on and was in the shadow of a tree, I was wearing sun glasses as it was a very sunny bright day.

Not a lot of trees on an airfield !

A bit flippent perhaps but I can't get over the fact that this H&S mania that has come apon us is lulling people into a feeling that life is risk free.

I have doubts about how the next generation is going to cope because they have been cocooned in a risk free enviroment but parents and schools. How are these people going to asses the risks of a new situation without an internal data base to draw from?

I have always been very safety aware and make it my business to create a safe working enviroment for all that I work with, what I don't need is inappropriate H&S regulations that have been mandated my someone who has very little knowlage of the risks of working on and around aircraft.

The safety rules that I expect to be followed are based on years of practical experience of aircraft engineering and opperation. What I dont need is a numpty just out of university mandating a bunch of ill conceved rules.

I don't think one could build an objective safety case for wearing hi-vis on an airfield, by which I mean demonstrating that hi vis clothing is going to prevent somebody driving a plane into a person walking airside, in the GA context.

At a busy international airport, say Heathrow, full of vehicles which are often moving around pretty fast, hurrying to load/unload some transport jet, it's a very different scenario.

But there are few if any vehicles around GA airfields, and planes taxi around very slowly.

The yellow-jacket business is mostly due diligence stuff. It's a cheap and easy way to make it look like you are doing something.

In many cases it is poor management. For example Norwich will confiscate your toothpaste, on your way out to your little plane. This is done because, they say, you are going airside and could pass the "explosive" to somebody who could then plant it on some 737. For much less than the salary of one or two of their huge number of "security" operatives they could tarmac and maintain a GA apron with its own dedicated access channel. It doesn't make any sense. And the locals know how to get around it anyway - they ask for a taxi to one of the flying clubs. The downside is that you then have to park on grass and taxi across some pretty rough grass/tarmac transitions. Great for prop strikes and thus safety :yuk:

In an airplane? :eek: ;)

Seriously: all the defenders of H&S here should perhaps consider for a moment that in any given society where rules proliferate, they tend to increase to a point where they are not taken serious any more. If you see ONE hi-viz jacket you take notice. If you see 100, they are part of the landscape. I venture to say that in some environments today it might actually be safer NOT wearing one - you'll be the one standing out and getting noticed.

Again - in circumstances that necessitate it, wear them (I certainly do!), but on a GA field walking 20 paces out to the a/c......

I'm just finishing up one of the largest infrastructure projects of the UK and we have an absolute zero accidents approach and have won a fair few major safety awards and what is reportedly an enviable safety reputation.

Our first line is an absolute insistence that everybody on the working area - without fail - wears Hi-Viz, safety boots, safety helmet and safety glasses. They may strictly be inappropriate at times but if it becomes second nature to always wear them, then you WILL have them on when you need them.

I have worn Hi-viz as a natural part of my site clothing for the past 15 years or so and thus I don't notice it anymore. There is no doubt that it has contributed to the huge safety improvements in the UK construction industry over the past few years and many of the hazards are the same, moving vehicles coming from unexpected directions - because there are no defoined roadways, just a big expanse of ground.

Of course the cases for the use of hi-viz on the ramp at O'Hare versus in front of the club house at Fairoaks are wholly different - and I think the presence of numbers of moving vehicles or otherwise should be the deciding factor and it should surely be the case that a sensible risk assessment is carried out before any safety measures are implemented - but again my view is that if it becomes second nature to wear hi-viz, you are always safer with it than without it.

I DO keep hi-viz in my car in case I break down on one of my local country lanes and will always wear it. Mrs DG also has a hi-viz vest in her car that I foisted on her. I cannot vouch for whether she has ever worn it though !!!

I have no doubt that this argument will run and run until the day when it becomes .... like on construction sites and on the railways - enshrined in legislation .... as it surely will.

DGG :}

I have to say that I always carry a high viz jacket in the car just in case of breakdown. I don't want Porsche assist mowing me down.. :O

However I really do despise the airfield high viz mentality being enforced by jobsworths with no safety case to actually back it up.

It's not really the high viz that bothers me, its the mindless and usually aggressive way it is enforced.

Cranfield are a classic example, I have had the idiot in the white truck driving over at breakneck speeds to dress me down for not having high viz. Got the hump when I asked him how he had seen me......

I know the feeling. I've been involved in a massive event this summer in the UK where, amongst other things, we had at any time 2000 youngsters out sailing/canouing/rafting/etc on a lake. Regulations required us to have no less than some 50 powerboats present all day as safety boats. Obviously they had virtually nothing to do all day so we regularly had to tell them off for fooling around: Their wake created more problems for the participants than the participants could create for themselves.

Which drags us back to the appropriateness of safety measures, supported by a proper risk assesment.

It is plain and clear that inappropraie safety measures only incite contempt, not only of them but of the appropriate ones too !!!

Anyone remember 'Common sense' and 'Self Preservation' ????

In a previous life as a Fireman, we were required to wear Dayglo orange instead of flourescent yellow/green jackets on the railway network because, believe it or not, the drivers confused them with the green 'GO' signals......

..So, when on the motorway, I DO wear a hi viz jacket, because you can never tell which numpty is going to be fiddling with his mobile phone and not see you parked on the hard shoulder.

BUT on a small GA airfield, on a bright summer's day, not much going on? Forget it! I'm not blind or totally deaf, so I can see & hear when an aeroplane is bearing down upon me, and merely side step out of the way using common sense and self preservation. The requirement to wear a hi viz is merely an instrument by which pseudo Hitler H&S officials can exercise their 'power'

IMHO 'Health & Safety' legislation has done a lot to turn the UK into the nanny state we now live in. Unfortunately, to question the sense of it all is only going to annoy the said Hilters who have to justify their very existence.





PS Always makes me laugh when I see workmen around a building site wearing those ridiculous plastic bump hats, and standing under a crane load of steel girders, quite happy in the fact that they are wearing appropriate PPE

and

My points entirely........

Quote:
I nearly hit an army soldier out jogging, he had all dark clothing on and was in the shadow of a tree, I was wearing sun glasses as it was a very sunny bright day.

In an airplane?

Could it have been the he was blinded by his bright gold bars and his reduced ability to see due to ego? :E

If you want a real high intensity aircraft operating area, try the flight deck of a fixed wing carrier.

http://www.atidswell.co.uk/images/Ph...Lineup_jpg.jpg

How many modern-day hi-viz vests do you see? Yet the flight deck was, for those correctly-trained, very safe indeed, because people followed the drills, and thought safety.

The hi-viz vest is sometimes the ultimate @rse-covering device for people who want it to look like they've done something towards safety.

Ken,

Very nice. The model anyway. Rather cute I reckon (I don't mean Bob!!).

The hi-viz vest is sometimes the ultimate @rse-covering device for people who want it to look like they've done something towards safety.

And embrassed by those who need to be led. ( Even by idiots. )

High VIZ Vest, Health and Safety-Nuts
 

Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden said that at the NEC centre they had banned their roadies from wearing shorts on stage due to Health and Safety and that any fans turning up wearing metal badges or chains on their clothing, will not be allowed in. :=In case they scratch someone when they dance up and down!!!

At the Red Bull race in London Docklands last year a cosmetically challenged woman in comfortable shoes, from Red Ken’s H&S, asked all the pilots to wear High Viz vests when walking out to their aircraft. Thankfully they all unanimously told her to FOXTROT OSCAR:D. Imagine if that happened in Formula 1, the sponsors would have a fit!

As one of them said, it’s crazy to think that on a country road you can travel at 60mph at the same time as an on coming car travelling at 60mph, with only a 4 inch white line to separate the distance of the 120mph converging vehicles by approx 9 inches!!:ugh:

On a railway station all the separates a waiting passenger and a through train travelling at speeds excess of 100pmh is a 4 inch yellow line and yet Official Plonkers can stop you walking to your aircraft on a fairly empty hard standing.:=

Of course there is an answer to this Nanny State Fascism.

JUST SAY NO!!!
:ok:
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/g...sarahvest1.jpg

Dear oh dear oh dear...

Where will it all end?

SB

Possibly with someone being run over on an airfield.